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JPK
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #76983 - 19/04/07 01:40 PM

Grizzly,

Not to be too harsh but there are no spare parts for any double rifle. They either need to be hand made or hand fitted so it is NO issue. JJ could make a spare as soon as G&H or any other qualified gunsmith/maker. No different than H&H or Purdy or... You can still get alterations made by JJ factory lettered, BTW.

The Marcel Thys that G&H sold for the price you mention was a plain jane gun with only the minimum border engraving and no extended tang. Not comparable wood either. Just not a comparable rifle.

The recoil pad is likely after market and so the length of pull. LOP is a matter of pure luck in a second hand rifle, even more so in a third or fourth hand rifle.

IMO, the rifle is too heavy and, if I were in the market it would disqualify the rifle. But it was made to someones specs. They were off two or three pounds.

I think this rifle is a relatively weak example of Thys and I think $25k is fair.

This rifle is better quality than the majority of boxlock English rifles you will see advertised and it is three quarters of a century short on the wear they have too.

No Hyem has been made in recent history that would compare to this rifle. By a long shot.

JPK

BTW, I paid a fraction of the asking price for my much better finished Thys sidelock. But I never expect to see that opportunity again.

Edited by JPK (19/04/07 01:44 PM)

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dnovo
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: JPK]
      #77014 - 19/04/07 10:39 PM

Well, while I agree with almost all of what has been said, the Griffin and Howe price comparision will not hold water now. If you go to their website now, they have a Thys boxlock in a medium caliber for nearly $20,000. And when I spoke to them about it, the response was "doubles are hot now, and we have had offers near that price already."

As for Cabelas the pricing is left to the individual Gun Library managers. Some (perhaps most) don't know squat about doubles. They overprice them, but if you watch carefully and are fast, you can swoop up a gem at a reasonable price. I bought a George Gibbs DR boxlock in 280 Flanged well below 'market' which showed up at a reasonable price, had my 'local' Cabelas ship it in for inspection, and then negotiated it down a bit and walked out a bit lighter in cash but with a fine British double in great shape for a comfortable price.

On the other hand, I saw one Lancaster that looked as nice on the web, but when if showed up, the stock had been crudely repaired with a bolt through the cracked wrist. I passed, the Library manager (a crafty type himself) told me to pass when I walked in to look at it, and he sent it back. It sold to some idiot five minutes after it got back to its home store.

I guess the DR market is indeed "hot" and the old saying about a fool and his money still seems to hold water. Dave

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Edited by dnovo (19/04/07 10:40 PM)

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dnovo
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: bulldog563]
      #77016 - 19/04/07 10:44 PM

Bulldog: Thanks for the weblink to Proctor. Thanks for the pictures as well. I should get my camera out and put the barrels from my WR 303 and the WR 476, the view of both ends would be enlightening. Dave

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: JPK]
      #77056 - 20/04/07 07:03 AM

Quote:

Not to be too harsh but there are no spare parts for any double rifle.



Interesting. So I would be SOL if I called a current double maker for replacement sights, triggers, springs, screws, pins, etc?

Your experience has not been the same one I have had.

Quote:

This rifle is better quality than the majority of boxlock English rifles you will see advertised and it is three quarters of a century short on the wear they have too.





I have not seen fit and finish issues with boxlock English doubles that appear just from the pictures of the Thys. A nice piece of wood and a slick finish have nothing to do with the quality of the rifle in my opinion.

Quote:

No Hyem has been made in recent history that would compare to this rifle. By a long shot.




How many recent Heyms have you seen? Shot? I would venture to say, not many. That is just a ridiculous comment.

And, from the looks of the rifle pictured, I would say most Heyms in recent history beat that rifle by a wide margin. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.

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dnovo
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #77069 - 20/04/07 09:53 AM

Leaving out invective, I have seen and shot a fair number of Heym DRs, and while I haven't purchased one yet (but am contemplating one in 450-400 when the new Hornady loads come out, they are being regulated for that and ammo will be far cheaper than current offerings) I have to agree with Grizzly as to the quality and fit/finish. I just don't see anything on this Thys that would make me want to rush out and buy it.

A poorly built example of a rifle from a 'name' maker is hardly a good deal at any price. Remeber, even 'famous' makers made second line guns, the WR post WWII "White Hunter" line (now, as my friend George says, referred to by those of us who are PC as Professional Hunter grade) lakced the fit and finish of the top of the line WR doubles. Fifty years later, they fetch far less than their 'big brothers.' Sure, they will bring more than a lesser name UK DR as they are a Westley Richards. However, a pooch is a pooch, and they will sit around while a no-name, but no questions will sell quickly.

At best, this is a qun with what appears to be some issues in the photos (and none of us can tell for sure without handling it) so why buy it. The name Thys? Good rep when they were being built, but not in the Purdey/H&H/WR league and not even worth what a good 'second string' UK Double (Lancaster, Hollis, Gibbs, Cogswell, etc) will bring. The Thys 'name' that was never that much of a 'name' to start with and will never bring a real premium.

My 2 cents. Dave

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JPK
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: dnovo]
      #77075 - 20/04/07 11:35 AM

Take a look here for an example of proud wood on the very first picture of a Heym boxlock that I came across. Even the side plated higher end rifle in the "frame" around the main picture has proud wood. This is typical of what I have seen. Ussually, if not always, on the Heyms I seen, that wood tongue that protrudes in to the sides of the action had proud wood as well. I could go on. http://www.heymusa.com/88_B_PH.htm

Some pins, triggers and springs will be blanks and need to be cut or fitted. Others are available at the hardware store. Do you know how all of the pins (screws) are made so the slots are parrallel? Even the most basic, inexpensive, entry level double rifle requires a whole lot of hand fitting.

Most DR sights come from Recknegell these days and not from the maker. Some older and newer guns too have proprietary sights that need fitting as well. For example, the front blades on my rifle are shorter than the Recknegell and are secured by a screw in the front of the sight and not an allen key or spring loaded catch on the top as with the Recknegell's in their catalog. But a Recknegell is easily fitted by shortening it.

Fit and finish on a lot of Brit DR leaves Much to be desired. But it can be hard to tell what it was like 50, 75, 100yrs ago. Certainly the proud wood would be gone, if it was ever there. Take a look at the breach end of the barrels on many an english double and see how the barrels are now undersized and shorter and narrower than the face of the action. Not an original issue, just a current one, the result of reblacking. Again, I could go on. There plenty of English rifles that weren't much even when they left the maker.

And the Thys, or any newer rifle will have better steel and decades less wear than most of the old Brit rifles.

JPK

Edited by JPK (20/04/07 11:38 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #77078 - 20/04/07 11:47 AM

Impressive discussion.Is there a consensus on Proctor Doubles??

They are certainly handsome in pictures--

Any negatives on their "best" rifles & $$pricing or do they have too small a volume and are an unknown quantity?

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500Nitro
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #77079 - 20/04/07 11:59 AM



Any reason this post keeps heading tot he top
of the list when no one has posted anything new ?

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77081 - 20/04/07 12:38 PM

Doc,

I really like the Procters. In a few years, what he is charging now will seem like a real bargain.

JPK,

We are not that far off on what we are saying. As for Heym, they have produced some outstanding quality rifles that they never showcase on their site. Don't know why, but them seem to put the blandest crap on their site.
I do know that a lot of their recent finest have gone to the new wealth in Russia.

I agree with you 100% on the quality of modern steel.

500N,

We have a secret PM string to keep this at the top just to put a burr under your saddle. Looks like it's working.

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JPK
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #77084 - 20/04/07 01:27 PM

Grizzly,

If you look at a top of the line Thys you wouldn't see any faults. I have been lucky to see the number I have given the number of Thys's around. The 470 Thys labeled with G&H's name was a good but plain rifle. A 577 that I saw and handled, also at G&H, was as fine a rifle as you could ever see. It was sold even before G&H received the rifle from the seller.

I have seen some top of the line Heyms too, but the std stuff, well...A good functional rifle.

JPK

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dnovo
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: JPK]
      #77116 - 20/04/07 10:56 PM

"I have seen some top of the line Heyms too, but the std stuff, well...A good functional rifle"

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head with that statement. 100% agreement. Heym offers some fine, well built "functional" DRs, as does Merkel, Chapuis, etc. Modern steel, well built. There are also some higher grade DRs out there, with tangs extended over the comb, engraved to the '9s', etc. Price? About double and up.

Horses for courses. If you want a working DR and don't want hand engraved works of art, the answer is self evident. If you want, and are willing to pay, for more, lots of other choices out there.

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: dnovo]
      #77172 - 21/04/07 01:51 PM

I once asked the people at Heym about the proud wood.

They noted that they could surely take the wood down level with the hardware, at no additional cost. The reason they build it proud is in anticipatation of a few refinishings along the way. Every time you refinish the wood (if done correctly) you end up taking some of it away. Since you cannot add wood back, seems like a good strategy.

Heym builds their rifles as honest to goodness working guns. And they build them to last. No sense anticipating that the rifle may be refinished a time or two unless the rest of it is built to last.

As for the higher end stuff, I believe it was a Heym double that SCI chose as one of their "stars" back in the 80's? Can't recall what the competition was that SCI was running at the time, but it was by no means a limited field.

They have been around since 1865, and from the looks of them they'll be around through their 200th anniversary.

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500Nitro
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #77173 - 21/04/07 01:57 PM


Grizzly

"The reason they build it proud is in anticipatation of a few refinishings along the way. Every time you refinish the wood (if done correctly) you end up taking some of it away. Since you cannot add wood back, seems like a good strategy. "

It is standard strategy for English makers also.

Alot of "new" people in the market think it is just unfinished
as I have seen this comment over and over again.

It is a very sensible idea.

In the older days and probably still, A lot of new English guns, especially SHOTGUNS are sent back to the maker at the end of the season every year for a service, refinish etc and every few years a complete overhaul / refinish.

Hence why in the UK a "refinished" gun by the makers is not seen as a bad thing - in fact almost better than one not kept serviced.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #77174 - 21/04/07 02:15 PM

Please help a Double Newbie--

If I order a Heym with primo wood and some engraving--

What then would be the signifigant differences I could see/feel vs a new "best" quality Double excluding the obvious differences in the engraving?? What would set a "best" rifle apart??

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Grizzly
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77175 - 21/04/07 03:44 PM

Doc,

There are a lot more guys here better qualified to make comparisons that I am.

With that said, you will find differences of opinions even among Best rifle owners. Some guys love Westley Richards. Others do not think they fit as well.

From what I have seen and my own experience, the fit and feel is pretty subjective, especially when you get into the higher quality rifles.

I happen to like WR's. They fit me well, and the balance and feel is good for me. I have yet to shoot an H&H, but handling one or two at gun shows it is one nice rifle!

I took a very long time deciding on a double to buy. The prices as you know can set you back from just under $10K to $200K or more.

I should also point out that caliber selection makes a difference. Some makers as Big5Jack can attest use a bigger caliber action and frame for the smaller calibers. You end up with more weight than you need. It is easier to stick with a set design than to come up with a new design that has the right balance and weight.

My own conclusion after handling a lot of rifles was to go with the rifle that fit and felt best to me. I was not concerned about engraving, but a nice piece of wood was important.

I think the Heym feels and balances pretty close to a WR. To some guys that may sound out there, but that was and is my personal view. Maybe if I had the chance to hunt and shoot with a best rifle more, I would be able to tell a big difference. But at this point I cannot tell much of one.

There is a DRSS shoot coming up in June and I think that space is still available. The big benefit there, other than slaying wild boar, is that you will get to shoot and handle a few english doubles in addition to Heym, Searcy, Merkel, Chapuis and maybe a Kreighoff and Blaser. Since the "feel" is relatively subjective, you can handle and shoot a nice mix of different doubles. If you are interested, let me know.

The other option is to get to one of the bigger shows like the DSC or SCI. You will be able to handle most everything there to get an idea of what you think is best for you.

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dnovo
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #77333 - 24/04/07 10:49 PM

Now HERE is a REALLY overpriced Marcel Thys at $5,500,000.00

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=10473

I assume this was a typo. Very nice, by the way, although far to ornate for my taste. Is it worth $55,000 (the assumed price?) Not for me, but that is, again, personal taste. Dave

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Double_Trouble
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: dnovo]
      #77335 - 24/04/07 11:36 PM

Dave:
that asking price is $55,000.00
it's common for the European pricing to use a "comma" as opposed to our method of a "period" symbol
I think that Cabellas must have cut and pasted the info from Thys or whoever is selling the gun.... either way its a big number for what you get.

Roland:
If you are reading along, what do you think that the engraver charged for the artwork on this gun? my guess is no less than $7000.00 US dollars

DT

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mickey
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #77339 - 24/04/07 11:50 PM

DT

$7,000? Figure $15-20k. Add in a second set of barrels for $8k. A fully fitted Huey case for another 6K.

I would guess that the rifle is properly priced. An oddity for Cabelas.

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Mick

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Double_Trouble
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: mickey]
      #77340 - 24/04/07 11:58 PM

Mickey.... you figure 15 -20 for that bulino work?
I am not saying that you are wrong but it seems awfully high to me, I would say a max of 10K.

It would be interesting to see what Roland has to say on the subject. I would like to know who did the engraving, perhaps Roland will recognise the work.

DT

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bulldog563
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #77376 - 25/04/07 10:24 AM

Anyone have an idea why they put three claw mount feet on the rifle barrels? I saw that there are two scopes but the rings look to be about the same distance apart.

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mickey
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: bulldog563]
      #77382 - 25/04/07 11:28 AM

Looks like an eye relief problem. That is the trouble with Leupold on DRs. They don't offer a rail mount version that would correct this problem.

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470evans
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: mickey]
      #77574 - 28/04/07 10:47 AM

Looks like the 375 Thys suffers from the same poorly fit breech end of the barrels that was attributed to over zealous refinishing....don't think that's what causes it. I'm sure some left the factory that way.

Nice rifle though.

Edited by 470evans (28/04/07 01:11 PM)

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JPK
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: 470evans]
      #77582 - 28/04/07 02:08 PM

Quote:

Looks like the 375 Thys suffers from the same poorly fit breech end of the barrels that was attributed to over zealous refinishing....don't think that's what causes it. I'm sure some left the factory that way.

Nice rifle though.



No, that is just the way the breach and barrels are done on Thys rifles. The beach is larger and almost oval on top in shape. Personally, I don't love it but you will see that the contours of the barrels match the conours of the breach about 1/4 of the way down from the "top."

If you look at a really nice H&H the breach face is more "artfully" or "delicately" or "finely" shaped and more appealing to me. The fences or balls are too round also for my taste. I'm a Thys fan so take my comments with a grain of salt. I would prefer an H&H.

JPK

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: JPK]
      #77589 - 28/04/07 10:59 PM

The shape of the breech you describe and see on the Thys is typical of many Belgian guns. It's an accepted style in the Belgian school.

You see the exact same style on this Lebeau-Courally. Note particularly the shot from the bottom of the action. The balls can be seen protruding from each side. This is not an error of action filing. It's the Belgian style.




Curl

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Re: Marcel Thys 470 Fair Price? [Re: Grizzly]
      #77591 - 28/04/07 11:09 PM

On the other hand, this Francotte is filed to the style of a Holland & Holland. Really no "Belgian" feature of style here.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=54980&an=0&page=0#Post54980

Curl

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