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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns
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eljefedouble
.300 member


Reged: 23/04/06
Posts: 189
Loc: Vic, Australia
Army& Navy by Purdey??
      #75436 - 03/04/07 06:40 PM

Before you lock me up and declare me, I'd like the opinion of this gathering on the veracity of a statement like this:

" 12 bore grade 'A' gun side lock S*S by Army & Navy. This side lock gun is made of the finest materials original french walnut stock, selective ejectors, very fine balance, manufactured by James Purdey."



Purdey made guns for Army& Navy cooperative?
Can post pics too if this is going somewhere...
Best
Axx

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #75443 - 03/04/07 08:29 PM

Tell us more, and post photos if available. I am not aware that Purdey made guns for the trade.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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eljefedouble
.300 member


Reged: 23/04/06
Posts: 189
Loc: Vic, Australia
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #75444 - 03/04/07 08:52 PM

Thanks Curl,
bit baffling-owner claims Army& Navy -MADE BY PURDEY...
Any info would be appreciated
Thanks
Axx





All I see here is Army & Navy...no mention of Purdey.

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bobc
.224 member


Reged: 18/05/05
Posts: 31
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #75454 - 03/04/07 11:55 PM

The Army Navy archives at Univ of Glasgow will give the maker in the records. My 1898 gun was made by Saunders. Should be simple enough to verify. Bob

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #75464 - 04/04/07 12:50 AM

It's plain from your photos that this is not a Purdey (Beesley patent) action. It would be hard to believe Purdey would tool up to make another action to sell to A&N.

Here's a Purdey action. Look carefully at the pin placement, and you will see it is completely different from your gun.



The Purdey (Beesley) action is a self-opener. That means it springs open when you operate the top lever. There are levers rising through the water table on each bar just behind the hinge. These serve two purposes: they cock the tumblers by way of rods through the bars, and they transfer the spring tension for self-opening the action. Here's a view:



You will also notice the lack of A&D cocking levers protruding through the front of the bars. Your gun clearly has A&D cocking levers.

Here's a view of the front of the hinge:



When you consider these significant differences, you will agree with me that this gun was not made by Purdey.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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eljefedouble
.300 member


Reged: 23/04/06
Posts: 189
Loc: Vic, Australia
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #75550 - 04/04/07 09:11 PM

Thanks Capt Curl for the very prompt info.
Absolutely mother lode material...
I guess I have some revelations to make, and will return after the dust and fur has settled
Best
Axx

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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eljefedouble
.300 member


Reged: 23/04/06
Posts: 189
Loc: Vic, Australia
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: bobc]
      #75667 - 05/04/07 07:10 PM

Quote:

The Army Navy archives at Univ of Glasgow will give the maker in the records. My 1898 gun was made by Saunders. Should be simple enough to verify. Bob



Thanks Bob, Since this is not my shotgun (or my claim)
will pass on this info -I know the owner is not going to take it lightly, his favoured 'A&N made by Purdey'must be story of legend by now.
Best
Axx

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"

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enfieldspares
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Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Great Britain
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: eljefedouble]
      #82296 - 12/07/07 09:48 AM

Why would Army and Navy pay Purdey to make a gun and then sell it engraved "Army and Navy CSL"? It would cost them more than they would be able to sell it for! A total nonsense!

Most later Army and Navy guns were made, in fact, by Webley. If you have ever seen Webley's record books you will see that they also made most of William Evans' guns too.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: enfieldspares]
      #82297 - 12/07/07 10:06 AM

Quote:

Why would Army and Navy pay Purdey to make a gun and then sell it engraved "Army and Navy CSL"? It would cost them more than they would be able to sell it for! A total nonsense!

Most later Army and Navy guns were made, in fact, by Webley. If you have ever seen Webley's record books you will see that they also made most of William Evans' guns too.




And Rigby post R3B !

And god knows who else.

Why you ask ?

It's called making money - A&N couldn't have given a rats ass who made the gun, if the customer wanted the gun made by Purdey, then they would have got it made by Purdey.

All A&N did was add a profit margin.

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enfieldspares
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Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Great Britain
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #82414 - 14/07/07 08:03 AM

"It's called making money - A&N couldn't have given a rats ass who made the gun, if the customer wanted the gun made by Purdey, then they would have got it made by Purdey".

Without wanting to be rude I would ask that if you state this, THAT THIS IS A GUN MADE BY PURDEY you should be able to show evidence, your proof, of this is from reading which gun maker's day book or factory records? Or from an example of any Army and Navy gun built using the Beesley system? It is a total nonsense.

Surely the owner has a letter from Purdey that confirms they built thie gun for Army and Navy? It wouldn't be difficult to get, I've seen Purdey's records, so maybe the owner has such a letter? If so I can only apologise.

So if a customer wanted an Army and Navy gun, made by Purdey using the Beesley system, they would get it built by Army and Navy who would then have it engraved as an Army and Navy and add a profit margin?

So the customer had a gun that would probably cost him more than if he bought it from Purdey direct, and yet be labelled as an Army and Navy that was not even a gun maker but a gun retailer and certainly not a name even amongst the second "rank" of British gun names.

Purdey, apart from boxlocks, as far as I am aware did not make sidelock gun using other than the Beesley system. Period.

But, at the heart of it, is an attempt to pass off a gun very much in the "third rank" as the work of Purdey. False pride...an honest error...or something more dark?

A "Ford...made by Rolls Royce" as it were.

Buyers of secondhand English guns suffer enough with "gun coping" let alone with "passing off". At best the owner of the item is mistaken. At worst it could be construed as dishonest.


It isn't an "Army and Navy...made by Purdey" it is, most probably, a Webley.

Edited by enfieldspares (14/07/07 08:27 AM)

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: enfieldspares]
      #82415 - 14/07/07 08:20 AM



I was talking generically, not about that gun.


Same reason people ordered guns from Rodda etc.

They had offices overseas.

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Farhan
.275 member


Reged: 31/01/07
Posts: 52
Loc: Pakistan
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #87961 - 29/10/07 04:57 PM

this is common practice in pakistan and india that people sell guns ion this way.
in pakistan we have bigesst open market of firearms "dara adem khel " where skilled craftmen do some thing more.
they are expert engravers as well beside making fake hollands and purdeys they do the worst thing by changing the identy of other english makes and fine european makes into well known makes.
beside this they reuined lot of double rifles by converting them in shotguns.
i saved one fine piece of r b rhoha 500 no 2 from such fate last year and daily i encounter many such guns.

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Army& Navy by Purdey?? [Re: enfieldspares]
      #87963 - 29/10/07 06:00 PM

Enfieldspares,

You are spot on. The owner of the A&N in question is nothing but a two bit bullshitter on another forum and I have correspondence from Purdey that prives it. The correspondence also says, quite clearly, that Purdey never made any guns for the Army and Navy co-operative.

There are some who would argue for the sake of arguing, most probably because they have nothing better to do. Please don't waste time with them.

Farhan,

This is OT on this post, but do post pictures of your guns here. They would be most welcome.

Good hunting, gentlemen!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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