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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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edmhunter
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Reged: 16/03/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ill.
Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH
      #75088 - 31/03/07 01:22 AM

Are the American made guns that much inferior to the British? Is it quality or actual design problems that makes them different? My opinion the No.1 important issuse with any gun is it has to go bang, and No.2 is it has to shoot were its pointed. Will the cheaper made guns do this or should I set my budget for English made guns. If so which is better HH round action sidelock vs Westly Richards drop lock? What is your opinion of Westly richards box lock?

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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: edmhunter]
      #75089 - 31/03/07 01:29 AM


edmhunter

Can you give a bit more detail, like are you buying NEW or used ?

What are you looking at - gun / calibre wise ?

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edmhunter
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: 500Nitro]
      #75101 - 31/03/07 02:37 AM

I was looking at new sorry.

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500Nitro
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: edmhunter]
      #75108 - 31/03/07 03:00 AM


Well on the point of it's got to shoot where it's pointed,
I don't think you have many worries in this department.
From my view, shooters should practice more with the gun
and get the load right (if you reload) and the guns will do what is asked of them.

IMHO, I wouldn't touch a California Rigby - marketing at it's worst. If you want a gun like this, buy a Merkel, Heym, etc etc.

Westley Droplocks - great guns, concept good - however they were built for an era years ago when Safari's were a long way away and transport for service was difficult. You'd buy one because they are well made guns that shoot AND IMHO more importantly, if it fitted you and you liked it.

H&H - love them, great guns, great company - haven't seen a DR in the round action so can't comment.


My opinion the No.1 important issuse with any gun is it has to go bang, and No.2 is it has to shoot were its pointed.
MOST Modern made doubles will do this.

In answer to "Will the cheaper made guns do this", YES.

Is it quality or actual design problems that makes them different? QUALITY and actual design AND the way they are made that makes them different - not sure what you meant by "problems" ?

Should I set my budget for English made guns.
IMHO, You don't just buy an Englih gun so it goes bang and shoots where it is pointed - I think there is more to the ownership of an English gun than just that.

If that "it goes bang and shoots where it is pointed"
is all you want, then buy a modern double from Merkel, Heym, Chapuis etc etc.

These are just my HO's. Hope it helps.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: 500Nitro]
      #75110 - 31/03/07 03:47 AM

It depends on what you want out of the gun and the $$$ you have to get said gun---

Merkel and Chapuis are cost effective from 7-8K & up, Searcy for 10K+,used.They certainly get the job done.

Double that for a new Heym, & others but you get better attention to details,better balance, and more features on the DR.

Past that you can cruise the websites selling used "best quality" Doubles as noted in previous threads or jump right in it and order a new DR.

Its all great fun, and a joy to shoot such rifles.They are generally worth the $$$!!

Now if I could justify the cost of a new 450/400 Heym with scope mounts, great wood, etc---

I know I couldn't stand the $$cost of a full featured H&H comissioned similarly unless I won the lottery, but I would surely love to have/shoot one.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (31/03/07 03:49 AM)

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: edmhunter]
      #75115 - 31/03/07 05:01 AM

Quote:

Are the American made guns that much inferior to the British? Is it quality or actual design problems that makes them different? My opinion the No.1 important issuse with any gun is it has to go bang, and No.2 is it has to shoot were its pointed.



I would add a No.3 It must reliably remove the spent case.
I had a Searcy 470 back when he made them on 20 ga BSS actions. It couldn't be counted on to do either No 1 or No 3.

I got rid of it and moved on to the used British market, where I've been dwelling happily ever since.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: edmhunter]
      #75117 - 31/03/07 05:28 AM

edmhunter

All new guns will go bang and are reasonably accurate.

After that it depends on your tastes and standards.

You can drive a KIA or you can drive a Mercedes. They both do the same thing.

A matter of taste and money.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: mickey]
      #75120 - 31/03/07 06:59 AM

Quote:

edmhunter

All new guns will go bang and are reasonably accurate.



Mickey, see my post above re: Searcy 470. Ordered it directly from him, left barrel would NOT fire after about the 5th round. The right wouldn't eject.
SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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edmhunter
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Reged: 16/03/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ill.
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #75131 - 31/03/07 09:32 AM

That is the fear I have. The gun has to be reliable when a Buff or an elephant is charging! It has to eject shells load easily and go bang. I was also looking at Dakota guns until I read that they are not very reliable and or accurate. What do you think of the Westly Richards box lock (non drop lock)?

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mickey
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #75139 - 31/03/07 10:51 AM

Did you send it back to Searcy? I keep hearing his service is very good.

This must have been a long time ago.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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BigFiveJack
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: edmhunter]
      #75151 - 31/03/07 01:22 PM

Don't forget weight and balance! Many feel 50% of the

weight should be within the central 33% of the rifle's

length. This is the practice of rifle building in

which "the weight is between the hands", and was

established by the U.K. builders going back 100 plus years.

Not all new rifles will be patterned this way. Also the

actual weight itself is an issue. If you are carrying all

day you might want a lighter rifle. If you are using a

barer for 85% of the day for your heavy rifle, while you

carry a light .375, then you can take advantage of a dozen

extra ounces on your double as a recoil reducer. Look at

this maker in England as a possible source. www.ttproctor.com

A poster here, jtomlinson has a 600NE being built as we

speak by this U.K. firm.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: edmhunter]
      #75158 - 31/03/07 02:50 PM

Quote:

Are the American made guns that much inferior to the British?



A best quality English sidelock double rifle has about 800 man hours of labor in it before engraving.

A Searcy will cost you $10,500 for the very base model, or $14000 for the classic. At a fully loaded labor rate of $80 per hour (which is not very generous because it is the same as my muffler mechanic charges), how many hours can be put into a Searcy and still maintain some profit? Let's assume a minimum of $1000 in materials for steel and the stock blank. That means a maximum of 100 man hours of work in a Searcy to still maintain a profit. Of course the man hours can be cut by having some work done on a CNC, but machine rates run $50 to $80 per hour, plus the operator. So my guess (and it is purely a guess) is that a Searcy has about 80 man hours of labor in it. There is simply no way that an article with 80 hours of labor in it can achieve the same fit, finish and smoothness as one that has 800 man hours of labor in it. But they are pretty good for the money spent.

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: 500grains]
      #75184 - 01/04/07 01:15 AM

I returned it to Searcy and told him I had lost confidence in the rifle and wanted a refund. He agreed on the phone and then refunded the purchase price LESS $500.
I have no doubt he made some fixes to that rifle and re-sold it. Hopefully the next owner had better luck.

To paraphrase the old joke, "I have dealt with Searcy twice, the first time and the last time."

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #75189 - 01/04/07 01:50 AM

Quote:

I returned it to Searcy and told him I had lost confidence in the rifle and wanted a refund. He agreed on the phone and then refunded the purchase price LESS $500.
I have no doubt he made some fixes to that rifle and re-sold it. Hopefully the next owner had better luck.

To paraphrase the old joke, "I have dealt with Searcy twice, the first time and the last time."

SOS



Less $500?? Did you get charged for handling it?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Grizzly
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Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: mickey]
      #75224 - 01/04/07 03:01 PM

I don't know if "inferior" is the right way to put it. It all comes down to what you have in your budget. And what caliber.

I take it we are talking about a 470 Nitro type caliber.

I don't really think you can compare a British rifle to an American, German, French or Austrian made rifle without taking price into account. A $175,000 Holland and Holland is going to look and feel a whole lot better than a $12,000 Searcy.

In new production, there are a few price points. You have the $9000 to $12,000 range, which includes Chapuis, Merkel, Krieghoff and Searcy. As far as shooting accurately goes, there are no flies on the new Searcys, although the fit, finish and balance of the European makers seems to be better. But don't forget that you are comparing Searcy who has been in business for what, 20 years, with European makers who have been in business going back to the 1800's.

Then you have the $12,000 to $18,000 range. That includes Searcy, Heym, Thys (making them under a different name) and a couple others. The differences between the European makers and Searcy are more apparent. Heym, for example, offers as standard intercepting sears, articulated front trigger, cocking indicators and a couple other features that are options on the Searcy. By the time you price those out, the Searcy is more expensive than the Heym. But the Heym is better in the fit, finish, balance and looks department. The "Mexican Rigby" falls into this or the next range, and I have a low opinion of those.

Then you jump to a pretty wide range - $20,000 to $35,000. 500 Grains knows more about these makers than I do, but they are mostly European and are great rifles. They could easily bear the H&H name.

Notice we have not mentioned any English maker yet. If I remember correctly, a new WR boxlock was in the 40's and a drop lock started around $80,000. They are fine rifles.

H&H-start over $100,000.

One note about Searcy - just about every year, his rifles seem to improve. Remember that in the double rifle world, his business is new. And his business is growing - that is good and bad. It will be interesting to see how things play out in the next couple years.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: Grizzly]
      #75232 - 01/04/07 09:08 PM

Grizzly---

May I ask if are you still liking your Heym??

Doesn't it have ejectors?

What caliber was it?

Would you want any changes as far as its SHOOTABILITY?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Grizzly
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy [Re: hoppdoc]
      #75363 - 02/04/07 02:10 PM

Love the Heym. It is a 470 and has ejectors. And it shoots great.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: edmhunter]
      #75376 - 02/04/07 09:11 PM

edmhunter,

As you are based in Illinois, do try and make it to the two Big Game Rifle Club of North America meets this year - one would be in the summer and the other in the fall. Both would be announced here. You would be able to see both the older British guns as well as new ones made in the US, Spain, Germany etc. Then decide for yourself. You'll also have a lot of fun just being there - Ernie and Gerri Stalman are wonderful hosts and the group is a particularly fine one.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Greener
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Re: Double rifles Opions on Rigby ,Westly Richards, B Searcy, HH [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #75749 - 06/04/07 05:58 PM

Let me tell my IMHO
-At first: reliability – every English custom gunmaker makes his guns with minimal tolerance (every part perfectly fit to the others) – as a result every part that would move moves smooth and ‘right’ – handling comfort, durability and self-confidence(of the shoter) in every single shot.
Reselling – you can resell the gun for a good price.
And of course prestige (and don’t tell me you don’t care about that, or you haven’t or don’t want to have a Bentley)
About WR boxlock all I can tell – I think it’s a great and reliable rifle but its not a competitor to H&H round because Wr costs 27 000 pounds and H&H 40 000 pounds. But h&H have no any options like royal scroll and regulating at ordered range and others if you include all of this it will cost at least 60 000 puns = WR sidelock
I think it’s a good idea to buy Watson Bros sidelock – 44 000 pounds one of the cheapest at English market

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