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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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edmhunter
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Reged: 16/03/07
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Loc: Ill.
Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle?
      #74315 - 22/03/07 11:56 AM

Who make the best rifle? I am looking at Dakota african in 375 HH.

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458Win
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74318 - 22/03/07 12:19 PM

The new Ruger 375 African offers as much bag for the buck as anything else currently out there. With a little elbow grease the Rem 798 and the CZ 550 can also be made into seriously reliable DG rifles.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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WyoJoe
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: 458Win]
      #74336 - 22/03/07 03:37 PM

I am with you Phil. I think the .375 Ruger has potential.

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.

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AzGuy
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74337 - 22/03/07 03:39 PM

Edmhunter,

First of all, welcome to the forum. Lots of good guys and info here.

Best rifle??? Depends on the size of your wallet! Lots of good ones to chose from: the Dakota you mention makes most lists as does the CRF Model 70 Winchester, most Mausers, the Kimbers are good, and I believe the new 375 Ruger is going to be popular and productive.

Some of it depends on your definition of a DG rifle.....does it start @ 375 or 416 or 458 or etc?

Shoot as many as you can BEFORE you buy. Then buy one, shoot it alot, and have fun. Let us know what you end up with.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74346 - 22/03/07 07:30 PM

It truly depends on your tastes and the game hunted.

Most folks would use some variant of the Mauser action with CRF(controlled round feeding).They would avoid push feed bolts.

I would personally avoid any type of push feed action due to shooter reliablity issues with concerns of the shooter "short stroking" the action under stress and rendering the rifle useless. This could be fatal in a DG scenario.

For the heat of Africa and Buff/Ele a large BRNO 602 action or similar CZ action can be employed for the 416 Rigby class of cartridges.The Ruger equivilent, a investment cast type action,(not forged)is an option as well. Other smaller action sizes usually can be used from 375 to 458 diameter projectiles depending on shooter preference.

As for the make of the rifle it is whatever your pocketbook can stand!!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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JTOMLINSON
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74359 - 22/03/07 10:22 PM

edm

Welcome to the forum.

You have probably started quite a thread with this question. What you will find from the answers, all of which will undoubteldy be correct, is that they are all very subjective as far as calibre and looks/style goes.

Your question makes reference to dangerous game so as a start you are on the right road with .375 H&H, this is often the minumum calibre for DG in many African countries and often recommended as a minimum calibre by alaskan guides for the big bears. It is also the largest calibre that a number of users can comfortably shoot well due to recoil.

That said, and as has been correcty stated above, much will depend on personal preference and the size of your bank book in terms of cost.

There are many desiarable features for a DGR, controlled feed is liked by many, myself included, but is not absolutely necessary, as is the feature of a magnum magazine box to hold 4 or 5 rounds, again not necessary, but definitely useful.

Before I parted with any amount of cash, if I were coming in from the cold to buy for the first time I would try and see as many makes as possible and speak to users of those in which you have an interest. Maybe if funds permit you could even look at custom or semi- custom makers, you are fortunate in the U.S in having some top flight bespoke builders of fine rifles, as we also have a number of here in the U.K.

Ruger rifles do offer some nicely made guns and the CZ rifle can make a useful DGR, but may require some aftermarket work to sort a few build issues out, many PH's use CZ rifles, but these have often had issues such as bedding and stock problems sorted prior to being taken to the dark continent.

I am not going to go into depth on any prticualr rifles as I do not have experience of many of the current makes, I am merely trying to offer some generic advice, I guess even stating the bleeding obvious, I hope you do not feel I am trying to insult your intelligence but urge you look around, even seeking the opportunity to try those you like in particular and then make a final choice from those you like most at which time you could further seek the input of fellow forumites.

Good luck

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500grains
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74368 - 23/03/07 12:47 AM

Quote:

Who make the best rifle? I am looking at Dakota african in 375 HH.



Since you are looking for a "best" rifle, I think you will need to adjust your sights higher than Dakota, Ruger or most of the common name brands. Instead, you could have a best rifle made by a member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild. For between $10K and $20K you will receive the best of custom rifles that American gunmakers are building today. Or you could go to Hartmann & Weiss, Gottfried Prechtl, Karl-Heinz Ritterbusch, Trevor Proctor, H&H, Westley Richards, or others making guns in Europe for a best quality rifle.

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Double_Trouble
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Reged: 27/04/06
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74372 - 23/03/07 01:51 AM

Welcome to the board Edmhunter

Since 500 Grains has mentioned some of the finest European makers I would add one more that you may want to consider
SZECSEI/FUCHS, it is double barreled bolt action and it is meant dangerous game in a big way! 6 shots in under 20 seconds.
you can see a video clip of the gun being fired on the website.... Fuchs Fine Guns.com

just my 2 cents worth on the subject

Again, welcome to the board

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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AzGuy
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #74374 - 23/03/07 02:33 AM

500Grains,

You make a very good point. There is a world of difference (cost wise) between the best working DGR and the best/most expensive DGR. Very good ("best" implies only one) working DG bolt actions can be had for around $2500 on up. The very "best" DG rifles have no upper limits on what they cost, only limiting factor is what you can afford. BTW, there is a place for both of these types of rifles.

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: AzGuy]
      #74385 - 23/03/07 04:27 AM

I agree with Phil's comments above. However, if you are already looking at the Dakota price level, I think you'd be much better served by an Empire. www.empirerifles.com

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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edmhunter
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Reged: 16/03/07
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Loc: Ill.
Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #74402 - 23/03/07 09:51 AM

Would the empire rifle be comparable with all the best rifles? What would be the difference name recognition, or true quality and or features?

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MopaneMike
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Reged: 03/01/06
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Loc: So Cal USA
Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74408 - 23/03/07 01:01 PM

If I might step in and add, American Hunting Rifles inc. Ed over at AHR is turning out some pretty good stuff on one of the best actions available.. The CZ, at some very reasonable prices..

--------------------
MopaneMike


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: MopaneMike]
      #74411 - 23/03/07 01:14 PM

For me it would need to be centreline feed and Push Feed.

It could be CRF centreline feed as long as the condition and dimensions of the case rim are guaranteed.

Ideally, the bullet diameter shoud be quite a bit smaller than the rear of the chamber....unless with calibres like 458 spitzers or semi spitzers are used.

Mike

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74426 - 23/03/07 10:02 PM

I have a "used" but as new Dakota.Couldn't stomach the price new(basically I'm tight with the Dollar)but it was gorgeous, discounted, and fit me perfectly.

I like the Dakota alot as a "semi custom" rifle and mine balances and shoots well.If you are going to hunt hard you may wish to get a similar caliber with a synthetic stock or get a synthetic stock to swap for your high end bolt.I have one nice wood stock I must refinish due to dings/divits/loss of finish secondary to hunting hard in humidity/wet conditions.

Synthetic stocks look like caca but do have a place in harsh environments.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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allenday
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74501 - 25/03/07 02:02 AM

For my money, the best bolt action hunting rifles in the world, including the most reliable dangerous game rifles, are built by D'Arcy Echols & Company, the David Miller Company, Mark Penrod, Ryan Breeding, and Gene Simillion. These guys get the absolute most out of either the Mauser 98 action or the Winchester Model 70 action, and whatever little quirks either one of those designs has going in, they'll eliminate all the problems and refine and perfect to the zenith of quality and reliability.

I also like custom rifles by Roger Biesen and Duane Wiebe.

Some of the rest of them are primariliy building either art rifles and safe queens, and not serious hunting rifles. Or else they're so focused on that icon called "benchrest-accuracy" that they're totally lost when it comes to feeding and function.

The guys I mentioned build COMPLETE rifles, taking into consideration accuracy as well as reliable function, plus stock design, balance, etc.

All of my personal hunting rifles were built by D'Arcy Echols.......

AD

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500grains
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74503 - 25/03/07 02:31 AM

Quote:

Would the empire rifle be comparable with all the best rifles? What would be the difference name recognition, or true quality and or features?



Absolutely not. THey are better quality than Dakota, but are still not always there with regard to feeding, fit and general workmanship, IMO.

Waffenfabrik Hein is another competitor in the under 10K price bracket and they are better done than EMpire based on the examples I have seen, again IMO.

D'Arcy Echols is going to charge you 10K to 20K, but his rifles are definitely superior in terms of function, feeding and overall finish quality. The same would hold true for Ryan Breeding (www.rbbigbores.com), Joe Smithson, Duane Wiebe, Gene Simillion, John Bolliger, Ray Branigan and about 30 other American custom riflemakers. Personally I feel that a guy should get a true magnum Mauser action for that price rather than a reworked model 70, but the customers are happy so the market has decided.

AHR rifles are in the under 5K class, and feeding can be hit or miss depending on the chambering. If you go the AHR route, be sure to get one with the single stack magazine box as that seems to resolve all feeding issues.

When I started building custom rifles and dangerous game hunting I made the grievous error of trying to cut corners on cost. As a result I ended up with several unsatisfactory custom rifles. I wish I had just written out a check for $15K right at the beginning and gotten a good one. Saving money on a custom rifle is no saving at all.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #74530 - 25/03/07 09:38 AM

500 grains--- Thank you for the commentary!

But if you were to specify the components for various custom rifles by the maker of your choice,
(long question and sorry to put you on the spot--)
what components would you prefer??

Action-Granite Mountain Arms vs??
Barrel-Lilja,Shilen, Douglas, and others et al--
Trigger-Timmey vs ???
Sights--???
Mounts-???
Wood and woodwork performed??

Every fellow has his own preferences, what would yours be for various action sizes-- i.e---

a 50 cal Jeffery or AHR bolt,
a 375 H&H bolt
and then maybe a
338 WM bolt??

Thanks much!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (25/03/07 09:40 AM)

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500grains
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #74547 - 25/03/07 12:37 PM

doc, can you tell me what caliber? That will help me narrow the field.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #74555 - 25/03/07 01:18 PM

500 grains--

Sir-

As aluded to in past old threads several bolt action "wants" are still out there.

I remain interested in a quality outfit building a 500 AHR or Jeffery bolt(I agree on the single stack mag) for me and am interested in requesting preferred components for a quality hunting/working gun.I believe you have had or have multiple 50+cal bolts you have hunted with.

I am also debating whether to do a custom 375 H&H or 338 WM by a known quality smith(to retain as much real $$value as possible)for my eldest son as something to remember our hunts together.I am leaning toward the 338WM as more utilitarian for the states.A 375 H&H would probably end up a safe queen.

Thanks for any info offered--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (25/03/07 09:53 PM)

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500grains
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #74593 - 26/03/07 04:54 AM

Doc,

I would not build a .500 AHR for two reasons. First, the brass is made by Bertram and their quality is quite poor in my experience with their brass in .470 NE, .500 NE, .600 NE, and .585 Nyati. Second, the .500 AHR has very little following and resale value will be poor.

I would not built a .500 Jeffery for two reasons. First, they are difficult to get to feed 100%, and there are very few people who know how to do that (and one of them work at AHR ). Second, even if yours feeds 100%, at the time of resale, buyers will be suspicious of it and it may be hard to sell.

If you wish to build a rifle in the under $5K category, I would just rebarrel a CZ550 in .416 Rigby to .500 A-Square. Add a recoil lug to the barrel, change the safety to a model 70 style, and get rid of the ugly factory bolt handle. Of course the crappy factory CZ sights should be discarded and a quality iron sight added.

If you are looking for a best quality gun, then I suggest the .505 Gibbs because it is an excellent cartridge and seems to have the best resale value. None of the big fat cartridges are easy to get to feed, but the Gibbs is not as hard as the .500 Jeff. Generally there are two paths to a .505 Gibbs. You could have an American riflemaker build one on a Granite Mountain Arms action. Or you could have Karl Heinz Ritterbusch or Gottfried Prechtl in Germany build the action and rifle for you from scratch. If you have the money and time, I would consider the German route. Ritterbusch can even make it a takedown if you want. Or you could get the gun made in the USA by one of the top end gunmakers based on a Granite Mountain Arms action. The European route will probably cost you 20K or more, and the American route will probably cost you 12K to 15K to get it done right. On the American side I would consider Ryan Breeding or Joe Smithson for the work. If you try to cut corners or save money on the project, the results could end up being unsatisfactory.

I killed 4 ele with a .505 made by Ryan Breeding. It was an excellent rifle and recoil was manageable due to stock design.

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500grains
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #74594 - 26/03/07 04:56 AM

About the 338 vs 375, recoil is the same but the 375 is much more versatile. I would get your son the .375. John Bolliger and Ray Branigan turn out great custom .375's based on model 70's. My personal preference would be a takedown .375 on a Granite Mountain action with Smithson QD mounts, all by Joe Smithson. I would estimate about 20K for the project. But lots of guys in the American Custom Gunmakers Guild can turn out a fabulous .375 if given a reasonable budget and 2 years.

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DarylS
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #74599 - 26/03/07 05:16 AM

Darcy Echols comes to mind - probably in a very elite crowd of heavy bolt guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: DarylS]
      #74605 - 26/03/07 07:01 AM

500 grains--

Much thanks and Excellent advise!! A takedown 375 H&H would be a real treasure for a father to give to a son. I will check with Smithson et al on prices.I LIKE that idea.

Sorry for one further question-

Given quality components is there a smith you recommend for a well functioning working 500 A square on the CZ action for around/under 5K?? I don't know that Breeding or Smithson would even want to pursue a rifle at this level.I would like to swap out a synthetic stock with the wood for some hunts in hostile environments.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (26/03/07 07:11 AM)

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500grains
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #74616 - 26/03/07 09:14 AM

doc, I have responded to your PM with specific recommendations. You are right that the guys building best quality guns generally don't want to touch a cz conversion.

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Safarischorsch
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Re: Best dangerous game Bolt action rifle? [Re: edmhunter]
      #74785 - 28/03/07 06:56 AM

Well in .375:

http://www.heym-waffenfabrik.de/english/S_Buechs/S_MagBue/s_ExpLht%20eng/st_ExpLht.html

If you wanna have more than .416 Remmag take the Express.

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