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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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500 Rimmed
      #7416 - 25/01/04 10:56 AM

Saw a double for sale on the net which is supposedly chambered for "500 Jeffries Rimmed"!
What is this cartridge, does it exist, or has someone got their wires crossed?

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 4seventy]
      #7417 - 25/01/04 02:05 PM

In reply to:

Saw a double for sale on the net which is supposedly chambered for "500 Jefferies Rimmed"!
What is this cartridge, does it exist, or has someone got their wires crossed?


I find nothing about a 500 Jeffery Rimmed , but the 500 Jeffery rimless is a obsolete cartridge, that is also known as the 12.7X70 Schuler. The exact origin is a little cloudy. It is a rebated rimless cartridge, with a water capacity of 160.19 grs water. Brass must be turned from solid brass rod, as the are no cases to form it from, according to THE HANDLOADER'S MANUAL of CARTRIDGE CONVERSIONS , by Donnelly.

According to COT #8, "the 500 Jeffery was a proprietary cartridge developed by Schuler in Germany, for bolt action rifles".

It was developed for Mauser bolt rifles, and Jeffery picked it up for their Mauser rifles as well, which were, more than likely, Mauser barreled actions made by Schuler. This cartridge,even if available, would not be suited well the double rifles! Ballistics, however, are similar to the 505 Gibbs!

Hope that helps!




--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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500Nitro
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7431 - 25/01/04 08:59 PM


500 Jeffrey Brass is available from a Number of sources.

500 Jeffrey Rimmed - isn't this a 500 x 3" Nitro Express (but with the 500 Nitro 1 - 200 fps slower !!!).

Why would you make a cartridge that duplicates the 500 Nitro Express ???

500 Nitro

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4seventy
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 500Nitro]
      #7459 - 26/01/04 09:46 AM

Yeah the 500 rimless Jeffery is a well known cartridge but I have never heard of a 500 Jeffries (their spelling)Rimmed.

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holland465
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Reged: 24/02/03
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 4seventy]
      #7464 - 26/01/04 10:10 AM

The 500 Jeffery is a very stout round indeed. It shoots a 535 grain bullet @ 2400 fps for a muzzle energy of 6800 foot pounds. The 500 Nitro express shoots a 570 grain slug @ approximately 2150 fps for a muzzle energy of 5850 foot pounds.

I have a friend who uses the 500 Jeff in Africa and is sold on it's ability to really put them down for the count!

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4seventy
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: holland465]
      #7467 - 26/01/04 11:04 AM

Yes,
Fletch used a 500 Jeff and that's good enough for me!

But this post is asking about a RIMMED 500 "Jeffries" cartridge not the 500 rimless.

The fact that the name is referred to as "Jeffries" rather than "Jeffery" makes me wonder about the credentials of the person responsable for the cartridge designation in the advertisement.

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500Nitro
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 4seventy]
      #7473 - 26/01/04 01:12 PM


Owning guns in all 3 calibres (500 Nitro, 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffrey) and having Shot Large Dangerous game
with a 500 x 3" Nitro, 505 Gibbs (525 grain and 600 grain bullets), I don't see a whole heap of difference.
They will ALL drop (and stop) a Buffalo if the shot is placed correctly.

One thing is for sure (and this comes from people who have used these guns on game more than me),
once you get over .5" in bullet diameter and 2150 fps, it is a big difference over a 470 Nitro et al.

I will however say that once you get a 500gn bullet at 2400 fps, it seems to be a step up but my question is,
does a 100 fps difference between 2200, 2300 and 2400 fps REALLY make that much difference on the animal
IF the shot is placed correctly. The OTHER factor people forget is the time it takes to get off the second shot
after recovering from the recoil - one reason I don't load any of my guns up to absolute Max.

I would welcome other poster's thoughts on the above comment.

Also, getting a 500 Jeffrey up to 2400 is not that easy - most of the 10 or so 500 Jeffries I've seen tend to end up
around 2300 fps with 535gn bullets.

500 Nitro

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 500Nitro]
      #7541 - 27/01/04 03:38 PM

A common mistake, but widely accepted is the 500 Jefferys is a 500 N. E. in a Jefferys double rifle...Same with the 600 N.E. which is also referred to as the 600 Jefferys in some of the few guns that Jefferys built in .600 N.E. I suspect that wordage came out of Africa as the guns were Jefferys in 500 and 600 caliber......

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4seventy
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: atkinson6]
      #7561 - 27/01/04 11:46 PM

In reply to:

A common mistake, but widely accepted is the 500 Jefferys is a 500 N. E. in a Jefferys double rifle



A good point but the makers name on this particular 500 is "Mahillon".

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mickey
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 4seventy]
      #7567 - 28/01/04 05:16 AM

In reply to:

A good point but the makers name on this particular 500 is "Mahillon".



Well that explains it then, it's the Belgians. I once had a rifle that was a coppy of Holland & Holland made there by somebody who misspelled Holland. They spelled it Hollund & Hollund. This was in the days when Don Shrum was sending over BP rifles and having the proof marks forged to British Nitro proofs.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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atkinson6
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: mickey]
      #7605 - 28/01/04 03:02 PM

4Seventy,
Yes, I understand that but when a caliber or whatever else becomes common use in language, it passes on to include other calibers or whatever....At any rate thats the real scoope and you can accept it or discard it at your will....I am only passing it on for whatever its worth....

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: atkinson6]
      #7610 - 28/01/04 03:14 PM

Ray,
The rifle in question is for sale at Cabelas.
I'm familiar with most of the NE cartridges but had never heard of a "500 Jeffries Rimmed" and wondered if it did exist or not.
From what everyone has posted it seems that the cartridge does not exist and that indeed someone did get their wires crossed regarding the case designation.
Thanks to all who responded.

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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 4seventy]
      #7736 - 29/01/04 03:02 PM

I called Cabela"s The gun has German proofmarks. As to the cartridge, they are not sure. It's marked 12.6 over 70 on the barrel flats. Also something that may indicate 36 gr. of powder. The rifle is not heavy, a hair over 10 pounds.

Dave

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: nopride2]
      #7744 - 29/01/04 03:49 PM

In reply to:

Poster: nopride2
Subject: Re: 500 Rimmed

I called Cabela"s The gun has German proofmarks. As to the cartridge, they are not sure. It's marked 12.6 over 70 on the barrel flats. Also something that may indicate 36 gr. of powder. The rifle is not heavy, a hair over 10 pounds.




36 grains of powder is a long way from a 500 Jeffery, 500 NE or any DG cartridge. Isn't 70mm around 2 3/4"?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: mickey]
      #7762 - 29/01/04 10:19 PM

Im no expert on German proof marks but maybe......
12.7 mm would be .500 caliber.
70 mm would be case length of 2-3/4".
And the 36gr would be 36 GRAMS rather than grains and would be a bullet weight not a powder weight.
36 grams equals about 555 grains I think.

Could this bullet weight have been used as a proof weight rather than the actual cartridge bullet weight?

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atkinson6
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 4seventy]
      #7791 - 30/01/04 08:56 AM

I am beginning to wonder if this gun is Nitro proofed, it should say on the water table, but not always.. It could well be a black powder gun, from the way this thread is going, could it not?

It does not surprise that Cabelas does not know what they have...As much as I like Cabellas in general and their policies, I have nothing but disgust for there firearms "experts", they are simply full of prunes and I am being extremely nice about the way I feel...

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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: atkinson6]
      #15823 - 15/06/04 04:44 AM

this 500 jeffry rimmed is the 12,5x70 R schueler, a very rare german hunting cartridge with a very very high collector value. it is the 12,5x70 schueler, you know it as 500 jeffry, with a thick rim. no chance to mix it with a 500 NE, is realy a different round. there was a story about this cartridge in the Hatari Times Magazin.
think it have more power than the 500NE cartridge.

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4seventy
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: pwm]
      #15828 - 15/06/04 09:58 AM


In reply to:

there was a story about this cartridge in the Hatari Times Magazin.


Welcome pwm. Do you recall which issue of Hatari Times has the article?
I have some Hatari Times but not all.
I see that HT No7 has an article on a rare Schuler cartridge which is a rimmed 11.2 x 72.

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pwm
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: 4seventy]
      #15845 - 16/06/04 02:53 AM

in no.11 is a story about a old german double gun in this caliber and in no.17 he show a pic of a german tropendrilling:16 ga, 16 ga paradox and 12,5x70 R schueler. if you have questions about this you can allways contact harald wolf. he has an open ear for schueler cartridges and guns.

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atkinson6
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: pwm]
      #16183 - 25/06/04 12:51 PM

I do recall reading something about this old black powder round and most likely it was the article you mention as I have all the Hatari times going back some time..

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pwm
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: atkinson6]
      #16219 - 26/06/04 01:52 AM

your are wrong, this was never a blackpowder number. it is the rimmed version of the 12,5 x70 schueler and was derived from this round.
a double gun with this chamber is one of the rarest on this planet.

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ALF
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: pwm]
      #16239 - 26/06/04 11:29 PM

My .02:

The 12.5x70 MB is an old rimmed target cartridge (BP) that has absolutely nothing to do with the 12.7 x70 Schuler or the 500 Jeffery.

The 12.5x70 MB "Mauser boden" was made between 1880 - 1910.

There are modern 500 Jeffery cases marked as 500 "Jefferies"
There was also a gunmaker in the UK by name of Jefferies as opposed to WJ Jeffery and Co. after William Jackman Jeffery.

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Russ_Gould
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: ALF]
      #303974 - 12/08/17 06:01 AM

Well I now own the Mahillon that was the subject of this thread. It is a full blown nitro with a .510 bore and a case that is 70mm (2 3/4") long with a sharp neck at the 2.3" point (like the 500 Jeff), made from 577 nitro brass (.750 rim, .660 base). The rifle was made in 1923 by an unknown German maker, and retailed by Mahillon in Brussels. It has a very unusual front sight with a fold-back square protector, and both a fine and a moon bead. The barrels are chopper lump with German proofs. Recently it has been completely restored and restocked by an unknown person. I intend to work up some loads with the correct 34 gram bullet (525 grain) and see how close the leaves are (50/100, 150, 300). I suppose starting with about 90 grains of 3031. Next time I get to Africa I will clobber something with it.

--------------------
http://doublegunhq.com - specializing in fine English, German and American double guns; and http://bigfivehq.com, specializing in safari rifles and hunting safaris

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Huvius
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: Russ_Gould]
      #303978 - 12/08/17 11:16 AM

Russ,
With those measurements, it's very much a 577/500 No.2
When you say the neck is at 2.3", is that where the shoulder is or the point where the neck begins?
My 500No.2 neck is right about at 2.3"
Also, get a measurement of the rim thickness too. The regular 577s have a thinner rim than the No.2 and the base of the 577 is bigger.

Can you show the chamber cast?

Hoyem lists a nitro for black from Kynoch with a 440gr bullet and a charge of 53grs cordite.

I am unaware of a full nitro version of this cartridge but a full nitro version would be a great gun imo.

I have a full set of forming dies for this cartridge so if it is in fact the same case, I can run some brass for you. Not easy to find though.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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3DogMike
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Re: 500 Rimmed [Re: Huvius]
      #303986 - 12/08/17 03:02 PM

".....I suppose starting with about 90 grains of 3031,,,,,"
Oh please dont use 3031; very very sensitive to small variations in charge and is known to give unexpected pressure excursions in large Nitro Express cases. Back in the Elmer Keith & Jack Lott days it was thought to be equal to Cordite in burn rate and so was used until some guns accidentally were ruined.
Better to try RL15 or H4831 and starting loads for the .500 Jeff from the Woodleigh manual.
Use Fed 215 primers...... & a backer rod filler with RL15
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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