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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
More experts on this board now
      #7350 - 24/01/04 08:51 AM

So i`m asking who can tell me from personal exp about the .358 Norma Mag as i am still toying with the idea of converting my 308Nmag to this cal.
How would it be on certain African game etc,i do know its a relatively unused cal much the same as the 308NM but none the less both are still fine rounds.
I have info as below but i would like to hear from actual game hunters that have successfully used this calibre if any and not necessarily in Africa either.



Factory loads are available from Norma and A-Square. The A-Square loads feature 275 grain bullets at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2700 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 4451 ft. lbs. At 200 yards these powerful bullets are still traveling at 2108 fps and carrying 2713 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy. From a rifle zeroed at 200 yards the Triad bullets will hit 2.3" high at 100 yards and 10.1 inches low at 300 yards. With these loads the .358 Norma is about a 250 yard big game cartridge.

The Norma factory load uses a 250 grain Woodleigh Weldcore bullet at a MV of 2799 fps and ME of 4350 ft. lbs. At 200 yards the velocity is 2112 fps and the energy is 2478 ft. lbs. The Norma trajectory figures show this bullet hitting +2.2" at 100 yards, 0 at 200 yards, and -10.0" at 300 yards. This is also about a 250 yard big game load.

The handloader has more bullet options. Speer has their 180 and 220 grain flat point bullets for deer-size game, the 250 grain Hot -Cor spitzer for large animals, and the 250 grain Grand Slam spitzer for heavy and/or dangerous game.

Hornady offers a pair of round nose bullets, a 200 grain number and a 250 grain, and a trio of spire points in 180, 200, and 250 grain weights. They recommend the 200 grain bullets for medium to medium-heavy game, and the 250 grain bullets for heavy and dangerous game.

Barnes offers X-Bullets (spitzers) in 180, 200, 225, and 250 grain weights, plus a 250 grain RN Solid and a 300 grain Original flat-point. The 180 grain X-Bullet is recommended for antelope and deer (medium game), the 200 grain X-Bullet is recommended for deer and elk (medium to large game), the 225 grain X-Bullet is recommended for elk and moose (large and heavy game), and the 250 grain X-Bullet is recommended for moose and dangerous game. The 300 grain Original is also recommended for moose and dangerous game.

Sierra catalogs a 200 grain Pro-Hunter RN bullet plus 225 and 250 grain spitzer boat tail GameKing bullets. Swift has .358" A-Frame bullets in 225, 250, and 280 grain weights. Woodleigh offers Weldcore bullets of 225, 250, and 310 grain weights. Nosler offers two Partition spitzer bullets of 225 grains and 250 grains, plus a 225 grain Ballistic Tip.

The Speer Reloading Manual Number 13 shows that 65.0 grains of IMR 4895 powder can drive their 180 grain bullet (SD = .201) to a MV of 2943 fps, and 69.0 grains of IMR 4895 can drive that bullet to a MV of 3133 fps. This is a deadly deer bullet for the .358 Norma, but should not be used on larger game. The 250 grain bullet (SD = .279) can be driven to a MV of 2581 fps by 72.0 grains of IMR 4350 powder, and 2732 fps by 76.0 grains of IMR 4350. 250 grains is the most popular bullet weight, and seems to be the consensus choice as representing the best balance between velocity, energy, sectional density, and recoil for use on most heavy or dangerous game in the .358 Norma cartridge.

As with all powerful medium bore cartridges, the biggest drawback to the .358 Norma Magnum is recoil, a familiar refrain to my regular readers. According to my Rifle Recoil Table, a 9 pound rifle shooting the Norma factory load (or a hot handload driving a 250 grain bullet at 2800 fps) hits the shooter with about 33.4 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. As effective as it is on big game, the .358 Norma Magnum is not going to be much fun at the range!






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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39066
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
.350 Rigby Magnum & .358 Norma Magnum [Re: gryphon]
      #7403 - 24/01/04 10:43 PM

Gryphon

Not an expert by all means but the old now almost defunct classic the .350 Rigby Magnum was not much different (about 2-300 fps) from the Norma cartridge.

It worked back then why not now?

(Also bringing this thread BTT to see if anyone else has an answer)


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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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jpb
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Reged: 23/01/04
Posts: 6
Loc: northern Sweden
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: gryphon]
      #7446 - 26/01/04 04:50 AM

I won't claim to be any expert but I do have a .358 Norma Magnum.

I like it a lot. I shoot a lot of cheap pistol bullets for practice, and many cast bullets from the legions of bullet molds intended to make pistol bullets.

If you want a varmint load, well you can't imagine how destructive a 125gr Hornady hollowpoint intended for revolver velocities can be when pushed to 3200fps (faster and they come apart in the air!). Muzzleblast and flash is fierce, but recoil is light. Just don't shoot that at anything you want to eat or use the skin from!

The Woodleigh bullets are good, but at the full velocities possible in the .358 Norma they can overexpand and penetration is reduced. Woodleigh recommends slowing them down a tad (i.e. 2600fps instead of 2800fps). However, if you subscribe to the "expend all the energy in the critter" is better school of though, then the 250gr Woodleigh will expand right down to the base without fragmenting (it won't exit a moose when it does though).

I make cases from whatever belted magnum case I have a surpus of, although a few like the 7mm Rem Mag will result in a slightly short neck (still work OK). 300 Win Mag is the best source of cases because you can size'em to headspace on the shoulder and avoid the case stretch that happens if you use other brass that headspaces on the belt.

Premium bullets are recommended because of the velocity (as noted above), and don't pay any attention if somebody comments on the low setional density of bullets for this calibre compared to the .338 Win Mag -- it takes a BIG critter to stop a 250gr Barnes X-bullet or Rhino bonded bullet in .358!

There is no real disadvantage if you are a handloader. If you are not, then I would NOT get a .358 Norma Magnum.

It does all a .338 Win mag will do, has many more cheap bullets to practice with, and makes a bigger hole!

Oh, I will admit after all that there is a disadvantage: recoil is noticeable! My .358 Norma kicks worse than my .375 H&H Mag, but I'm sure that will change when I finish restocking my Norma!

jpb





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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: jpb]
      #7449 - 26/01/04 06:03 AM

Thats the sort of reply i wanted mate.....from someone that actually uses the calibre and not just pasting from another site..............thanks for your extended reply,i do know about the holow points caper as i have pushed quite a few lightweight hp`s out of my 7mmag up rabbits etc and into roo chest cavities or taken their heads off too.....

Have you ever thought of writing to Woodleigh bullets and giving them your thoughts on their overexpanding projectiles? I`m sure they would welcome such feedback and adddress the situation too by improving their product for use such as yours.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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jpb
.224 member


Reged: 23/01/04
Posts: 6
Loc: northern Sweden
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: gryphon]
      #7451 - 26/01/04 06:36 AM

Well, even though *I* like deep penetration (and preferably an exit hole), some don't. So, I guess the over-expansion may depend on your perspective. Also, there are a LOT more .35 Whelan's than Norma Magnums, so Woodleigh has to make bullets for the biggest section of the market.

It is really only in the fast .358 Norma that these bullets expand so much. In the .35 Whelen they are just about ideal. However, I like a bit more velocity in case I have to take a slightly longer shot, and that extra velocity sure reduces penetration unless your bullet limits expansion. Some of the guys I hunt with do NOT want to see an exit wound, so they are very happy with these Woodleigh's in their Norma magnums.

I wish to emphasize that the Woodleigh's don't come apart! However, the recovered ones I saw were expanded all the way to the base and had the remaining sectional density of a pizza!

Still, I like high velocity, semi-pointed bullets, and good expansion within limits so I'm now using Rhino Bonded Bullets.

Here in Sweden, the Rhino's cost about the same as the Woodleighs -- both too damn much!

jpb



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jpb
.224 member


Reged: 23/01/04
Posts: 6
Loc: northern Sweden
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: jpb]
      #7452 - 26/01/04 06:39 AM

I forgot: I also have a 7mm Rem mag, and I have shot several kg of Sierra and Speer varmint bullets from it. Gruesome results, but the pistol bullets in the .358 Norma Mag are even more spectacular!

jpb


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: gryphon]
      #7465 - 26/01/04 10:45 AM

Gryph,
I don't have any experience with the 358 Norma Mag but I do have experience with some other 35 cals.
Some of the projectiles you mention do work well in cartridges which produce much less velocity than the 358 Norma and therefore I would doubt they would hold together too well in the Norma.
I would not want to use those little 180 Speers in the 358 Norma on anything much bigger than rabbits and certainly not deer mate.
Woodleighs are the best bullet on the planet IMO so long as they are used at the velocities they were designed for.
The Woodleigh 250 35 cal works very well at 350 Rigby and 35 Whelen and 358 Win velocities but I would think the big Norma would push them too fast.
Same thing goes for the 250 Hornady which works real well at around 23-2400 fps but you would not want to push it much more.

To get the most from the big magnums you MUST use a projectile which can handle the high velocity they produce.
I have had good results with Barnes X in high vel rifles but they sometimes cause fouling which can be a bit hard to remove.
The coated X's may prevent fouling, I don't know as I haven't used any.
Also some rifles don't shoot the X's all that well.
The X bullet does hold together well in the fast cals though.
Nosler partitions would be worth a try.
Thing is that you cannot "economise" with a magnum by using anything less than premium bullets.
High velocity comes at a price and you most likely have also found this out with your 308 Norma mag if you are running it at full steam.


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jpb
.224 member


Reged: 23/01/04
Posts: 6
Loc: northern Sweden
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: 4seventy]
      #7518 - 27/01/04 04:16 AM

I agree with 4seventy (surprise!).

To give full credit, Woodleigh Bullets recommended impact velocity show how important Woodleigh thinks this is.

I greatly appreciate them posting this info in such a prominent place!

jpb


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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: jpb]
      #7570 - 28/01/04 05:40 AM

item of note... on ANY .358 caliber, pay particular attention to teh Ballistic coefficients of the rounds selected. in many cases (the 200-225-250gr Partitions are one), the heavier bullets will cut a flatter and more powerful trajectory due simply to BC. the .358s seem to have THE greatest differences in BC of any caliber out there (or close).

I, for one, wouldn't use anything smaller than a 250 in a whelen unless I was punching paper and they were cheap. now, I don't have ALL the ballistics data, but for the Swifts, Noslers, and a few others, the heavier bullets are worth the nominal drop in MV. I've yet to find a really great 200/225 hunting round with a decent BC.

just my observations.

...this from a guy who doesn't even HAVE his 35 yet!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: More experts on this board now [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7577 - 28/01/04 09:56 AM

The 358 Norma is one of the few calibers I have not used at one time or another, but it simply has to be a wonderful caliber, as it appears to me it will do anything the .338 can do and has a better cross section of bullet..but less SD...so maybe a toss up..The 358 caliber has never been popular in the states and never will be.

I would put it in the same class as the 9.3x64 and that is no slight praise and the lesser 35 Whelen proved itself to be a heck of a round, so cheers to the 358 Norma, any thinking man can see its virtues...Maybe someday I will just have to give it a go..


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