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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Swift A-Frame failures
      #73491 - 09/03/07 05:00 PM

Although I have alwayas been a staunch supporter of Swift A-Frame bullets, 3 recent incedents of these bullets failing got my attention. I have gone through the expensive route (for us on the Southern tip of Africa) and send the first 2 failed bullets back to Swift, with a bunch of unfired bullets from the same batch. (I am not sure if all "failures" came from the same box, but all definately came from my last 2 boxes.) After some promises from Swifts president, I am no closer to an answer.
I have attached the emails send to them to explain what happened to the first 2 bullets:

"I have been a rabid Swift A-Frame supporter since I tried these bullets in my 8x68 S (in 220gr weight) around 1999. Since then, I have used it to kill hundreds of big game in Southern Africa, mostly kudu, gemsbok and
mountain zebra, but also eland and springbok on the other sides of the spectrum.
I have written articles for our local press on premium bullets, and have always recommended Swift A-Frames above all else (for a soft bullet that is.) When clients contacted me with regards to bullet selection on upcoming hunts, I have advocated Swift A-Frames above all else. Because of my occupation, I have the opportunity to see more bullets in action than most. This has lead to a lot of local hunters also asking me what bullets they should buy. (I am also the chairman of the local hunting association's branch.) All this as a form of introduction. Then last year, an American client, shot a buffalo bull with my recommendation of 400gr. Swift A-Frame out of his .416 Remington. (Factory loaded by Remington) This bullet was shot into the neck of a nice bull (42 inches) from about 30 yards. The bull collapsed, and the first shot was followed up with a solid into the chest of the downed bull. On skinning, the recovered bullet was shown to have flattened totally, not what I was used to from Swift A-Frames. I took pictures of that bullet, but the client kept it, so I cannot give you accurate weight retention, but it was definitely lower than 50%! At the time, I thought that the client might have mistaken another soft for the A-Frame, and that was why it did not have the characteristically A-Frame look and weight retention. Then this past week I hunted with another client, who borrowed my 8x68 S with the mentioned 220gr bullets loaded to 2850 ft/sec., to hunt gemsbok (his own rifle developed a problem towards the end of the hunt). His shot took the gemsbok from about 120 yards, hit the humerus of the right shoulder, and stopped under the skin of the left shoulder, just in front of the left shoulder's ball joint. (In other words, the shot was placed slightly too far forward, and encountered a heavy shoulder bone on the way in.) Two
pieces of bullet were found- one of them the rear core of the bullet which was squashed out, weighing 55.6gr. (~25%) The other part was shrapnel of jacket, weighing 94.2 gr. (~42%) Together; they weighed 149.8gr, or 68%. This is very disappointing, especially from what I believed to be the best soft-nose bullet available. Have you changed the thickness of the jackets, or are you using new materials to make these bullets? The batch that I had problems with are bar-coded 7 13351 3220 1, and was brought to me by another American client, as we do not have a local agent for your bullets in Southern Africa.
Please comment. If you are interested, I can supply you with photo's or
the recently recovered bullet."

AND

"Just to let you know that I had another failure with a 220gr A-Frame, this time on a backing shot on a kudu bull just as it went over the crest. Although the bull died shortly after receiving the shot (which could not be attributed to the clients 2 shots), the bullet tumbled after impacting. I attach a photo of this bullet, the previous failure, as well as a bullet that worked perfectly, this time from a gemsbok again. These bullets were all from the same box, and I am seriously thinking of scrapping these bullets, as in my game, I cannot afford bullet failures."

These two bullets can be seen in the following picture:





The 3rd incedent of bullet failure, happened recently on a gemsbok cull. I shot a young bull looking straight at me just too low for the brain. The bull was looking at me, and as I judged the distance to be under the 250 yards that the rifle was zerod for, I aimed lower, and shot lower. Usually would not have ben a proplem, as this combination is capable of super penetration, and it should have broken its neck. The proplem was that the bullet flattened (simmelar to the second bullet in the picture above, only more pronounced), and veered off course, mising the neck vertebrate, and coming to stop lower in the neck, just under the skin. The bull reared up on his hind legs, and luckily ran straight at me, so I followed up with a shot to the chest, which brought him down.

I know that no bullet is infallible, but 3 from one batch? Am I missing something, or is my expectations just too high? What do you think?

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416


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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: Ndumo]
      #73499 - 09/03/07 09:11 PM

The A frame concept is sound.

Sounds like inferior metal bonding and metal quality.Hope they are not trying to increase their profit margin by decreasing expenses and making an inferior quality bullet.Could get several of their customers killed!!

I am planning on shooting 338 WM & Aframes on an African PG hunt this summer.Hope I didn't get a bad batch. When Swift makes MUCHO bullets for Remington Safari series and ?Norma quality control concerns me.Wonder what I can shoot into to check the bullets? Anyone have an idea of something tough and simple?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: hoppdoc]
      #73511 - 10/03/07 12:35 AM

As too something to shoot in to-I have personally used a sheet of plywood with a heavily compressed row of wet newpapers behind it--again- it needs to be compressed. If you follow this procedure and shoot into the center of the area ,you will recover the bullet for examination to determine its performance. You could also used wet phone books as well, again they should be compressed and in my experience, having the plywood in front is very helpful.

I have never had a problem with A-Frames and have used them on my last two hunts to Africa. I used factory A-frame loads in .416 Remington and hand loads in 300 ultra-mag--taking 3 cape Buffalo along with various plains game. Having said that, no one is perfect--Swift might have sent out a bad batch--I would definetly check performance before I left for Africa.
Good luck
Ripp


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: Ripp]
      #73526 - 10/03/07 04:24 AM

The separated core on the right hand bullet shows lack of any bond as the smooth lead side indicates where it was incontact with the inside of the jacket.
: Rarely is one box of bullets made on the same machine or even in the same batch, unless from a very low quantity custom shop. Is it possible some of the bullets in those two boxes you've got, were from a batch that escaped being bonded. I don't know their process, so can only suggest possible cause.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: DarylS]
      #73540 - 10/03/07 10:18 AM

Daryl, my impression was that it is the rear core, (behind partition) which is not bonded in any Swift A-Frame.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416


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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: Ripp]
      #73542 - 10/03/07 10:33 AM

Wonder if lightly poured sand about 6" deep and 40"long would work.It would certainly stress the bullet.

Hmmm----

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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DM
.300 member


Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 107
Loc: mid west USA
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: hoppdoc]
      #73549 - 10/03/07 01:39 PM

Long ago i use to design and swage jacketed bullets. I sold them mail order, and out of a gunshop i owned.. I made zillions of bonded core .375's long before everyone else got on the bonded core wagon....

To test your bullet, i'd drill a slightly "undersized" hole 1/2 of the length of the bullet in a piece of 2x4.. Then push the bullet in the hole "nose first" and take a hacksaw and saw the bullet through the center "lengthways". The 2x4 will hold it while you saw...

Now take a couple pairs of pliars and twist half the bullet back and forth seeing if you can get the core to pop out! You should NOT beable to pop out a core from a bonded bullet!!

I know you would NEVER have got the core out of one of my bonded bullets...

DM

Edited by DM (10/03/07 01:44 PM)


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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: DM]
      #73552 - 10/03/07 02:08 PM

Thanks,That is cheap, logical and should work!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Safarischorsch
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: Ndumo]
      #73620 - 11/03/07 09:00 PM

Ubelieveable photos!

I think that tumbling is the problem...

You can see the fishtailed bullet. In this cases the leadcore will be squeezed out or the bullet even broken when striking heavy bone...


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Ndumo
.300 member


Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: Swift A-Frame failures [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #73651 - 12/03/07 04:08 AM

Safarischorsch, that was my firts impression also. However, the bullets in the photo where shot at really unobstrucktive animals, the 3rd case I reported was the only time that some twig or something could have made it tumble or deflect, as this gemsbok was shot in real thick bush in Northern Namibia. What else could have caused it?

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416


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