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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Save yourself some grief.
      #73489 - 09/03/07 04:30 PM

I just wanted to make a posting here that will hopefully save some of you a lot of grief, as well as your hard earned money.

I read a post elsewhere this evening that read something like this: Hi, I just booked an African Plains Game Hunt for the beginning of June with PH .......... Has anyone heard of him, or hunted with him.

Folks, today is March 9th, and this persons hunt is less than 3 months away. Now is not the time to be checking references. The time is before you lay out your hard earned cash for a deposit.

Ask any prospective outfitter or PH, not just for some references, but a complete client list from the previous season. If you only get a couple of names, steer clear. Some outfitters will only want to send you the names of successful clients. I like to speak to all clients, even those who were unsuccessful. I can't begin to tell you the number of clients I've spoken with over the years who, even though they were not successful in taking their primary animal, still had a great time, an excellent hunt, and would hunt with the outfitter again. Hunting being what it is, doesn't guarantee success, unless you're shooting in an enclosure.

I hope this bit of advice helps someone out.

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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #73512 - 10/03/07 12:41 AM

What you are seeing is extremely common.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: AspenHill]
      #73516 - 10/03/07 01:16 AM


Mike

Well said.


Aspen

Interesting you say that.

Why is it so ?

After seeing the lengths and detailed questions people gask before buying a DR, it's interesting that they can spend just as many $$$ on a hunt and not ask the questions or check refs before handing over the $$$$.

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allenday
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Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #74041 - 17/03/07 02:44 AM

All I can say is, the client should be finding out who and what his PH is long before he ever cuts a check.

ALWAYS do ALL your homework before any committment is made, and before any money changes hands. The money guy in the deal always controls the deal, but it's much easier to maintain that control while the money remains in your account............and it's a lot harder to get back later if you then change your mind.

Act in haste and you might just repent in leisure..........

AD

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: allenday]
      #74364 - 22/03/07 11:25 PM

I just read another post today (March 22) of the exact same nature: "Going on my first African trip in Jusne with xxxxxx. Has anyone hunted with him? Please provide feedback on quality of game.....", etc., etc.

Fortunately, this chap is booked with a reputable outfit, but it could just as easily have been a disaster.

As Allen says, do your homework long before you cut that first check.

Edited by mikeh416Rigby (22/03/07 11:25 PM)

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DPhillips
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #74417 - 23/03/07 02:11 PM

Absolutely amazes me that people do not research this type of thing into the ground before sending a deposit. These forums, plus numerous other resources, are ideal places to get feedback or information of this kind. It's easy, painless and cheap.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: DPhillips]
      #74418 - 23/03/07 03:27 PM


Totally agree.

And after seeing what people go through to buy a gun, DR or whatever, check, check check, lowest price, lowest price, can't you do better, then they send off a cheque for mega $$$ to a Safari Outfir with no checks whatsoever.

Go figure.

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #76211 - 11/04/07 08:30 PM

Quote:


Totally agree.

And after seeing what people go through to buy a gun, DR or whatever, check, check check, lowest price, lowest price, can't you do better, then they send off a cheque for mega $$$ to a Safari Outfir with no checks whatsoever.

Go figure.



That is quite an interesting point. I wonder why the difference in mentality between the two.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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PTinMT
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Reged: 16/08/05
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: bulldog563]
      #76773 - 17/04/07 03:01 PM

I might have a bit fo insight into this. I guided for 15 years and went to a few sports shows to see if I could book some clients. While I actually did book some at the show, most were after the show though. Most of the guys I'd spoken with at the show would go home, think it over, hopefully do a bit of research in me and the area I guided call me later and book. Now those that booked at the show booked a couple of days of flyfishing on the Yellowstone or something like that, not exactly a big risk. Trips that involved a week or more or back country packin, that never happened to me at a show.

At these shows there are always outfits from Alaska or Africa What absolutely stunned me was that some of the African outfits would book safaris running $10K or more and collect deposits of 50% or more right at the show!! What was I doing wrong?

Well, my darling wife is in advertising and she said, "Honey, it a "dick-thing", you know, testosterone fog induced reflex spending." Guy goes to show with buddies, has a few brews, if mine ain't bigger than yours at least I've got more money. Been to a DU or SCI auction? What the hell are some of those guys thinking?

The sad little postings that ask,"Is this guy ok?" Are really hysterical screams of, "PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TELL ME I DIDN"T JUST MAKE A TOTAL ASS OUT OF MYSELF."

Some may even be looking for a way to get out of the trip that they can justify to their friends and family. "Yep, seemed like a great guy, then out of nowhere I found out he's a snake-oil salesman, could have happened to anyone. OF COURSE I CHECKED HIS REFERENCES BUT SOMETHING SEEMED A BIT OFF SO I KEPT ON DIGGING..." It's easier to live with being a victum than a fool.

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
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Loc: Canada
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: PTinMT]
      #76788 - 17/04/07 11:28 PM

Welcome to the board Montana,,,, that post sure beats the hell out of the " hi my name is ...." intro!

well said, I too work shows and rarely do you write an order at the booth unless the customer has met you before or at the least walked the hall and done SOME homework. but there are the odd testosterone induced check writers out there.


DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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PTinMT
.224 member


Reged: 16/08/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Montana
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #76803 - 18/04/07 02:13 AM

Oh, hi my name is X and I'm a hunt-a-holic...

I Ghost ride a few web sights and mostly read whatever others have to say as I find I either learn something or if it's just some fools rant it's not worth my typing time.

Having been in the outfitting business for a bit this subject interests me a bit more thatn others and I feel that I could have some insight that some other readers, who've been on the client end mostly, might enjoy hearing.

The less often seen post is the "I was screwed by so-n-so post" I wonder if anyone has ever found a "Is this PH OK?" post that later is linked to a "I was violated, completely duped, I'm outraged! posting? I remember a few months ago on another site there was a particularly nasty bit about a less than satisfactory hunt that seemed to have been booked in "the fog". Lots of name calling by both sides, the PH in question had some vigorious defenders that took great umbridge at the "slander" directed at their man in africa by the alledged injured party. I read the thread for weeks and over ten pages as it played out, secondary threads were started ranting about sub-aspects of the first thread. Total bloody soap-opera.

What I learned from this was that the "victum" having done no research into the PH, the PH's area or even the problems often encountered hunting the #1 target species, "thought" things should have been conducted differently. This even though the victum had never hunted said species before. If I recall correctly the money involved was in the $15K to $20K range, without any trophy fees. Absolutely amazing. Forget how it was resolved as I eventually lost interest. Always easier to be the victum than the fool, my grandmother was right about that.

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: PTinMT]
      #76807 - 18/04/07 02:44 AM

Like I said before, welcome to the board, always nice to have fresh opinions and your Grandmother was a wise woman!

By the way, you wont see too many of those soap operas on this forum and anything that gets to the slanderous stage is nipped in the bud quickly, the site is well maintained and moderated... its a class act all the way! Enjoy it, I know that I sure do.

Sorry about that huntahloic affliction that you have but you may be pleased to know that there is no known cure for it, and further, no one is looking for one either.

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #76822 - 18/04/07 04:03 AM

Quote:

By the way, you wont see too many of those soap operas on this forum and anything that gets to the slanderous stage is nipped in the bud quickly, the site is well maintained and moderated... its a class act all the way!




DT

Thanks for the comments but actually the admins and moderators here have almost never had to 'censor' or edit much, or 'ban' people.

One great thing about the membership of NE is the members will often step in and post themselves, to take it elsewhere or to cool down.

The best way for it to work.

***

HunterMontana,

Welcome to the NE forums.

It is always hard on the internet with incomplete facts at a 'distance' for people to judge whom is at fault when someone posts a negative report. But sometimes the actual participants post enough to make it pretty clear! And especially how they post.

Positive and negative reports can however be useful for prospective clients in choosing a potential service provider.

Sh*t happens sometimes, sometimes the client is at fault, and sometimes the outfitter. If the outfitter is at fault, how they remedy the situation oftens says more than the problem itself. I know of one outfitter (in NZ) whom has more than once offered a free future hunt to make up for unavoidable problems. And the two examples of know of for him, the clients took up the opportunities and I have heard many times this guy described as one of the top outfitters the clients have met. One time it was a 2x1 hunt and one of the clients was an arsehole and spoiled the hunt for the second guy. He confidentially offered the second client a free 1x1 hunt to make up and that is indeed service. Incidently he now only takes clients whom have hunted with him in the past and never has to advertise.


***

But to the topic on discussion which is committing to a hunt and an outfitter and THEN looking for references, it is MUCH BETTER to do it BEFORE paying a deposit!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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paradox_
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Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #84735 - 27/08/07 05:51 PM

Agree with all you guys. However two of us went this year with a large Zimbabwe outfit, with supposed great references, and an agent whose rep was second to none.
What we got was one PH with a drinking problem and whose car didnt have 4 wheel drive, and he didnt know it, and another PH who approached Buffalo up wind and couldnt walk 500 yards without stopping for a rest. Mind you in fairness he was obese, and smoked 40 cigs a day!!!!!!!
Happy to expand if anyone has a spare two or three days.!!!!

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick

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gator
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Reged: 03/12/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Florida
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: paradox_]
      #90936 - 08/12/07 03:18 PM

WOW.

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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: paradox_]
      #90942 - 08/12/07 04:00 PM

Quote:

Agree with all you guys. However two of us went this year with a large Zimbabwe outfit, with supposed great references, and an agent whose rep was second to none.
What we got was one PH with a drinking problem and whose car didnt have 4 wheel drive, and he didnt know it, and another PH who approached Buffalo up wind and couldnt walk 500 yards without stopping for a rest. Mind you in fairness he was obese, and smoked 40 cigs a day!!!!!!!
Happy to expand if anyone has a spare two or three days.!!!!



I think you'd agree that if you posted the outfit's name here, as well as the agent involved, it would help in a couple of ways. First, it would give the outfitter, as well as the agent a chance to explain what happened. Second, if they fail to reply or don't reply satisfactorily, all of our members here could cross them both off the list of potential outfits we would go hunting or book a hunting trip with.

So, how about helping us out.

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ChinaFleetSailor
.224 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 44
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #110376 - 25/07/08 09:43 AM

Quote:

I hope this bit of advice helps someone out.



It is excellent advice. But taking a slightly different tack, I think forums are of limited utility for doing any kind research on an outfitter, even before booking, for a number of reasons. All of which are based on my observations of another forum, not this one, over several years.

Posters tend to become targets for forum regulars. This goes for the person raising the question, and doubly for anybody who answers the question with negative feedback on the PH. Generally the PH has a fan club, and if someone responds to a request for information with a less than positive report the fan club goes into attack mode. They subject the guy to an internet rectal exam about what he did wrong to mess up the hunt. Because their favorite PH couldn't be the one at fault.

The main objective of a lot of posters isn't to help anybody out by providing information; it's to demonstrate just how superior they are because they would never make the stupid mistakes the idiot they're ganging up on made.

It doesn't matter what the client does; he's an idiot. If the guy didn't check out the PH ahead of time, then he's an idiot for not acting with due diligence. On the other hand, if the guy had a bad hunt despite checking references and researching the outfitter ahead of time, then he's an idiot for not performing enough due diligence.

But suppose the guy had a bad hunt because despite checking references, researching the PH, exchanging e-mails to make his requirements clear, the PH screwed up the hunt by changing his arrangements just before he got on the plane? Then the client's an idiot for not getting the PH to commit to anything in writing.

What if the guy had a bad hunt despite checking references, researching the PH, exchanging e-mails to make his requirements clear, having the PH commit IN WRITING to his conditions, because the PH still changed things on him at the last minute?

Guess what!

Now the client is an idiot for being an uptight ass who's trying to micromanage everything, instead of going with the flow like all the "cool" regulars. Doesn't he know that the PH has his best interests at heart, and all the regulars had some of their best hunts ever because of last minute changes imposed on them by their PHs! The ungrateful bastard!

Apparently the standard is that the client is wrong because he didn't do his homework, until it becomes apparent the client did do his homework, at which point the new standard becomes the client is wrong because he's a real hard-to-please prick who just doesn't know how to relax and have fun.

Apparently some people find that sort of environment off-putting. So I doubt I'd ask for feedback on a PH in a public forum. Who needs a bunch of glowing reports from the peanut gallery? I'd rather ask for people who've hunted with a particular PH to PM me so we could talk offline, as I'd really rather get an honest evaluation and that's more likely to happen privately.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #110381 - 25/07/08 10:38 AM

I understand exactly what you're saying concerning a poster becoming a "target". I've observed that on another popular forum myself.

However, if you take a look around here, you won't see that sort of ganging up on someone. It's just not tolerated. Our members are expected to adhere to a set of standards that precludes that sort of behavior. Stick around here for a while, and you'll see what I mean. Our members are much more well behaved, and open minded than those on some other forums.

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EricD
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #110399 - 25/07/08 05:06 PM

ChinaFleetSailer,

Welcome to NE.

I think you bring up some very valid points, especially concerning a certain well known forum where a lot of what you describe goes on.

I also think that as Mike mentions, you will find that NE is quite a different place, where forum members both behave better, and don't create "fan clubs" for certain PH's/Outfitters/Agents. Members here are generally more genuinely knowledgeable than what is found on another well known forum, where people turn into "experts" because they've been to Africa on a 1 week hunt a couple of times. You will also not find hunting agents here who claim to have been going to Africa for 40 years, and having shot hundreds of buffalo, while they in fact only started going to Africa a decade ago.

Browse around, and I am pretty sure you will find the quality of NE to be higher than most (or all )other related forums.

I also hope you will share your experiences with us, be they about hunting, double rifles, shooting in general, or even something appropriate down in the "food and wine" section for that sake!

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Ndumo
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Reged: 21/12/03
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: EricD]
      #110402 - 25/07/08 09:11 PM

Some of the truer words I have ever seen on any internet hunting forum:
by ChinaFleetSailor
Quote:

The main objective of a lot of posters isn't to help anybody out by providing information; it's to demonstrate just how superior they are because they would never make the stupid mistakes the idiot they're ganging up on made.



and by ErikD
Quote:

Members here are generally more genuinely knowledgeable than what is found on another well known forum, where people turn into "experts" because they've been to Africa on a 1 week hunt a couple of times



I especially love Eriks one. Thanks for making my day Erik!

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: Ndumo]
      #110422 - 26/07/08 02:05 AM

Karl, I aim to please.

Seriously though, my comment also actually reflects what I hear from quite a lot of people who visit your continent on a 1-2 week photo safari or other similar vacation. They come home and think they know everything about Africa, Africans, how well foreign aid works (or doesn't ), African politics, etc etc.

The fact that they've flown a charter plane directly from the int. airport to Kruger, Masai Mara or whichever national park they are going to, with a short stop one day in some nearby village that is set up to entertain visiting tourists for a couple of hours, doesn't stop them at all. They are 100% positive that they have then seen and experienced the "real" Africa, and are able to analyze and advise about all the ins and outs. Even in other African countries where they haven't been to, which as we know can often be quite different then the one they did visit shortly.

But then what would I know.

Erik

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ChinaFleetSailor
.224 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 44
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: EricD]
      #110435 - 26/07/08 08:19 AM

I hope I was clear; I wasn't commenting about anything I've seen on this forum.

I think one reason I did comment on this thread is because the members here are experienced and knowledgeable. On another forum, I'd just be wasting my time.

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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #110436 - 26/07/08 08:58 AM

Quote:

I hope I was clear; I wasn't commenting about anything I've seen on this forum.

I think one reason I did comment on this thread is because the members here are experienced and knowledgeable. On another forum, I'd just be wasting my time.



Ain't that the truth !

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #110461 - 26/07/08 04:16 PM

ChinaFleetSailor,

I understood that.

Just to clarify my post, I was not implying that opinions from members with little or no experience aren't welcomed too. Be it about double rifles or hunting or whatever. Their opinions are of course more than welcome. And often bring up interesting questions that many other people would like to know more about.

What's nice around here is that members are generally more relaxed about their level of experience or knowledge, be it great or small, and asking straight out what they want to know instead of pretending to know everything already (as often seen somewhere else).

Erik

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
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Re: Save yourself some grief. [Re: EricD]
      #110465 - 26/07/08 07:12 PM

One problem with the internet is all the touts. Many paid or "connected" touts hide behind aliases and "spruik" for an outfitter without declaring any interest. Some are blatant liars and are agents for the outfitter and use another alias to attack critics or to post positive stories. Some of theit stories are complete fantasy even the number of hunts they have done or the number of years they have been going.

Clients can be honest or dishonest. The dishonest ones that come out blagging the outfitter without reasonable cause make life difficult for everyone.

BUT often it is possible to read between the lines and see somewhat of a true picture. Other times it is so confused that everyone involved ends up stinking not like roses or even mascara. (those who have read that fiasco, will know what I am talking about ).

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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