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hoppdoc
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AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG??
      #72981 - 03/03/07 02:01 PM

With broadside whitetail shooting I generally try to smash a shoulder to put the animal down and decrease the tracking.Smetimes I even neck shoot when the animal is close, stationary and partially obtructed by branches then try to followup with a heart lung shot quickly.

Obviously,Buff and Ele should not be purposely shoulder shot broadside due to the chance of poor penetration to the lungs and the danger of tracking a wounded animal.Do any of you out there shoot them this way and if so with what?

Plains game and leopard/lion would seem amenable to the broadside shoulder shot to the lungs to anchor the animal or the neck shot if no other decent shot is avasilable.

What is the forum thoughtand experience on this?
Smack 'em in the shoulder to put them down or heart/lung them and track them as needed?

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Marrakai
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #72989 - 03/03/07 03:10 PM

Can't speak for African buffalo, but the best shot placement on Asiatic buff (which are often larger in the body) is the point of the shoulder. Over .40-cal cartridges are recommended, and premium bullets are mandatory.

I use .400 x 3-inch NE with 400gr Woodleigh softs, .416 Taylor with 410gr Woodleigh softs, .577 Light Nitro with 650gr Woodleigh softs, or .470 with 500gr Woodleigh softs.

The shoulder-shot with a bonded-core soft-point will break one or both shoulders, maybe break the spine where it dips down between the shoulder-blades or at the base of the neck, wreck the top of the heart or the big arteries at least, and almost certainly catch both lungs. More margin for error than any other side-on shot too, IMHO.

Works for me!

No experience with ele, but assume solids would be mandatory, which could make a difference.

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ozhunter
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #72993 - 03/03/07 04:16 PM

I have found that a shot in the arm pit, just behind the sholder about 1/3 up the body works well on game of all sizes from Rabbits and foxes on up to Buffalo and Elephant.
On Lion and leopard the hart and lung are a tad futher back.
Some African Professional hunters do prefer a disabling sholder shot.
ozhunter

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Grizzly
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: ozhunter]
      #72994 - 03/03/07 05:32 PM

I read somewhere that you are supposed to let the animal decide....

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #72997 - 03/03/07 07:22 PM

On my first African Safari, my PH told me something that I'll never forget. He said to imagine a soccer ball in the middle of the chest, with the center of the ball in line with the points of the two shoulders. Using that as a reference, place the shot through the center of the ball, from any angle. That lesson has never let me down.

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #73007 - 03/03/07 10:50 PM

Never shot a cat broadside but would imagine I would want to go behind the shoulder, 1/3 up the chest due to their more posterior heart placement. Read somewhere shooting at a cats anterior shoulder may cause trouble with a possible missing of enough vital structures.Is this correct?

Shooting at the "hinge point" of animals shoulders should get both lungs with a higher shot and certainly be fatal. I have shot and lost an elk with anterior placement of such a shot by a scoped rifle and after tracking it all day I was not a happy camper.My concern/experience would be such shots can miss the lungs on elk while shooting lower and a touch posterior anatomically might get the shoulder bone and both lungs, or the great vessels/heart region. Kinda like hitting the trifecta if you get a shoulder,both lungs, and bone fragments to the great vessels.I doubt you could count on bone fragments doing anything on Buff or Ele though--

Edited by hoppdoc (03/03/07 10:55 PM)

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Kalunga
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #73047 - 04/03/07 05:27 AM

I am not an expert in shot placement, but I know for sure that any bullet has to do some considerable damage to put an animal down, especially if the adrenaline-level of the animal is already high. Even more so with African Big Game, as all African hunters know. Therefore a shot placed "on the shoulder" will drop the quarry when the spine is smashed, which happens when the neck of the scapula (collum scapulae) is hit. I very much like Kevin Robertsons excellent book on the theme, which enables the interested hunter to develop a three-dimensional picture of the vital organs inside the animal, in my opinion a "must" for every ethical hunter. In this book You can easily see that a shot on the point of the shoulder of a broadside standing lion or leopard will miss the chest cavity. So if You don`t smash both shoulder joints to pieces there might be a problem waiting for You in the thick stuff. Since I have read this book I try to go for the top of the heart and cut all those nice blood vessels, which will destroy usually the lungs as well, so the follow up will be short and end standing at a dead animal.

Kalunga

Use enough gun !

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: ozhunter]
      #73138 - 05/03/07 03:07 AM

Quote:

I have found that a shot in the arm pit, just behind the sholder about 1/3 up the body works well on game of all sizes from Rabbits and foxes on up to Buffalo and Elephant.



AMEN, brother! It works well.

However, in the heat of the moment, most neophytes succumb to the natural tendency to aim center of mass, which puts the bullet either a bit high or a bit too far back. This is even more of a problem with Zebra since the stripes tend to concentrate one's focus on the center body/diaphragm area.

Off hand practice and concentration in the field, the only antidotes.

SOS

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allenday
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #73157 - 05/03/07 08:04 AM

My rule is to shoot for the shoulder. If you break a given animal's framework down, you break him down, pure and simple, along with everything else in between. Plus, bone fragments make excellent secondary projectiles.........

AD

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Scott
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: allenday]
      #73167 - 05/03/07 10:44 AM

My rule is break bone. I only use a heart/lung shot when bowhunting. You are going to have to track game with a heart shot. I have had 115 pound whitetail deer run 100yds with a heart shot with a 50 cal muzzleloader taken at 40 yards. The heart was split by the bullet looking like a mushroomed Barnes X bullet.

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JPK
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: Scott]
      #73179 - 05/03/07 12:46 PM

For buff, it depends on the angle of course. But I like the shoulder when the shot is there. I have used only solids and penetration isn't an issue.

For elephants, shooting - with a solid - just behind the leg bone works well. Easiest shot if you are just behind a broadside angle. A higher shot can spine an elephant too. Solids only.

In sum, break bones when you can and still be sure of penetration to the vitals beyond.

JPK

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: JPK]
      #73202 - 05/03/07 08:10 PM

On Buff a broadside solid should penetrate the shoulder bone and get both lungs.

My main concern would be the shot impacting the bone and the angle of entry changing, getting only one lung and having a very pissed off Buff(albeit a three legged Buff !)to deal with.

I have had this occur with Barnes X solids on an elk shoulder but obviously the Barnes was not the quality or type solids you have used on Buff.

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jorge
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: allenday]
      #73821 - 14/03/07 12:09 PM

Quote:

My rule is to shoot for the shoulder. If you break a given animal's framework down, you break him down, pure and simple, along with everything else in between. Plus, bone fragments make excellent secondary projectiles.........

AD



Expert advice and it works. I remember Allen's words to me to "break bone" when I drew a bead on my buffalo. I center punched him exactly 1/3 up the shoulder and he was done for even though we walked up and gave him two more while he was still standing but blleding quite profusely (man, that heart was spurting blood close to 20 feet!). If you look at the photo, you can see where the bullet entered right on that white patch on the shoulder(it was a 400gr Swift BTW). Every animal I hunt, the shoulder is my preferred point of aim and it works. Even though I am aware the double lung shot works, I don't like to chase them. Even while deer hunting down here in the south where brambles are very thick, a shoulder shots tends to anchor them and retrievel is much easier. yes it ruins more meat, but if I really, really want a good piece of meat, I go to Ruth Chris' jorge

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #76260 - 12/04/07 10:32 AM

Quote:

On Buff a broadside solid should penetrate the shoulder bone and get both lungs.

My main concern would be the shot impacting the bone and the angle of entry changing, getting only one lung and having a very pissed off Buff(albeit a three legged Buff !)to deal with.

I have had this occur with Barnes X solids on an elk shoulder but obviously the Barnes was not the quality or type solids you have used on Buff.



Just looking for some clarification here. Were you using Barnes X bullets, or Barnes Solids? There's a big difference between the two.

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #76360 - 13/04/07 08:58 AM

Jorge,
Who's in the photo?

SOS

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JPK
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #76376 - 13/04/07 12:57 PM

Hopdoc,

The reason some PH's still prefer their clients to use only solids on buff, especially in thick cover, is that a good non expanding solid can be counted on to track straight. The deflection off of ribs and shoulder blades has been cited to me as a particularly good reason to use a solid, especially when sooting at an angle from the front.

I'd note too that the solid on a broadside shot will exit almost surely.

JPK

Edited by JPK (13/04/07 12:58 PM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #76421 - 13/04/07 09:18 PM

A Barnes X was used on the elk and it did not track straight.

I would agree that a Barnes solid or better yet a Woodleigh would track better.

My experience- X bullets are good on deer/elk but the X tends to loose one or more petals when hitting bigger, tougher animals.Don't know if I would like to try them on a Buff.

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (13/04/07 09:19 PM)

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Double_Trouble
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #76441 - 14/04/07 12:52 AM

Jorge:
I dont know his name, but I see the PH in the middle of your photo at the SCI show every year. He seems to be quite popular and most everyone knows him.... what is his name?

DT

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JPK
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #76457 - 14/04/07 03:31 AM

That PH would be John Sharpe.

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jorge
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: JPK]
      #76734 - 17/04/07 05:27 AM

JPK's correct. the PH in the photo is John Sharp and the other gent is my friend Todd that's also in the Navy. jorge

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Double_Trouble
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: jorge]
      #76737 - 17/04/07 06:12 AM

Ah yes !
When I read his name I recall people greeting him, I am brutal with names but pretty good with faces. and I do recall also that he wears a large ivory bracelt.

DT

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hoppdoc
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83436 - 02/08/07 06:21 PM

African PG are tough!! Wildebeest and Zebra are really tough and hard to put down.Seem much much tougher than american game.

Heart lung shots are effective getting both lungs but shooting for a spot on the shoulder broadside,between both angling or at the off shoulder seems a better shot getting lungs/pulmonary vessels/shoulders unless facing anteriorly.

Robinson's book shows classical heart/lung on most broadside shots.I would tend to go more anteriorly toward the shoulder on a perfect broadside.

I would totally agree with Mike16Rigby, Marrakai, AllenDay, and others that the shoulder/between the shoulders,or the far shoulder is the broadside/angling shoot to go for.

Hit 'em critically and break'em down.Especially DG unless a CNS shot is required

Edited by hoppdoc (02/08/07 06:38 PM)

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Ripp
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83438 - 02/08/07 10:54 PM

Quote:

A Barnes X was used on the elk and it did not track straight.

I would agree that a Barnes solid or better yet a Woodleigh would track better.

My experience- X bullets are good on deer/elk but the X tends to loose one or more petals when hitting bigger, tougher animals.Don't know if I would like to try them on a Buff.




My personal experience with Barnes has been nothing short of excellent. Typically if you have a petal breaking of it is more of a velocity issue than where you are hitting the animals..Personally, for game here in Montana, I have used a .257 Weatherby on a titanium action with a Hart barrel--26"--I am shooting 100 gr Barns triple shocks at 3820 fps--a tad "hot" but I use that rifle in Oct through Dec. in Montana..I have shot bear, elk, deer and antelope with that caliber with out a problem ever--and mostly, they drop to the shot--

As to Barns solids, I have used them on 3 cape buffalo as follow up shots after my initial shot was with a Swift A-Frame-- The barnes typically penetrate the buffalo from stem to stern with no problems what so ever..on the ones I have recovered, I could probably reload them again, if I so desired.

Finally, as to the shoulder shot or neck shot on a leopard.. I would vernture to say there are NOT too many PH's that would suggest a NECK shot on a leopard if no other shot presented itself..I would think even suggesting that to ta PH would make him pass out. ---the thing one has to remember --leopards along with the other 4 are DANGEROUS GAME... you don't want to take a maybe shot-----IMHO, humans have three basic emotions, greed, greed and greed.. so rather than wait for the proper shot or possibly go home empty handed, they attempt to force a shot and that is when things get all fouled up and problems begin...again IMHO...

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83442 - 02/08/07 11:25 PM

Quote:

A Barnes X was used on the elk and it did not track straight.

I would agree that a Barnes solid or better yet a Woodleigh would track better.

My experience- X bullets are good on deer/elk but the X tends to loose one or more petals when hitting bigger, tougher animals.Don't know if I would like to try them on a Buff.



Hoppdoc, I usually don't drink in the mornings, but I'm wondering if I was sober when I just read that the Barnes X didn't track straight through an elk. From what angle?

I have not shot big five so I won't speak to them {not that it would change my aim...}, but on broadside shots on any critter that has four legs and farts; Shoulder, Shoulder Shoulder.

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xausa
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Re: AFRICAN GAME SHOTS -SHOULDER,NECK OR HEART LUNG?? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #83455 - 03/08/07 02:07 AM

The comment about zebras reminds me of my most embarrassing moment in Africa. I took a moderately long shot at a zebra in a fairly large herd. He was facing left, as were most of the rest of the herd, and I aimed at the middle of his shoulder. At the shot, he and most of the herd took off to the left.

The only exception was one facing right and dragging his hind quarters. Closer inspection revealed that he had masked the shoulder of the one I was aiming at, and I had shot him squarely in the butt. I should have noticed the absence of the distinctive chevron on the shoulder, but I obviously didn't.

The right facing zebra was quickly dispatched and his left facing friend never knew what he had missed. I suppose there is no political lesson to be gained from this.

Edited by xausa (03/08/07 10:45 PM)

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