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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
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Why Create The 600 Nitro Express
#72544 - 26/02/07 03:56 PM

With the 577 Nitro Express already in existence, [I think]

why was the 600 Nitro Express developed? Was it just to

"one up" the 577 NE? Did any of the old time ivory hunters

who were using the 577 ever conclude that it was "not enough

gun" and step up to the 600 to "correct" that situation?

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
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Edited by BigFiveJack (26/02/07 03:57 PM)

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bigdog
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#72545 - 26/02/07 04:48 PM

I have no idea, but it has been around for along time. I am glad they made it, somebody must have wanted it. I would say the need was at least percieved to be there since it has been around for 100 years.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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AkMike
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: bigdog]
#72550 - 26/02/07 05:54 PM

Why Create The 600 Nitro Express?
Why Create The 700 Nitro Express?
Why did they build a 327 when the 283 was a good engine?
Why did they build a 454?

Because they could and bigger is always better!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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JTOMLINSON
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#72564 - 27/02/07 01:03 AM

Jack

The actual difference in time between the introduction of the Cordite .577 and the .600 Nitro Express is not as great as one may imagine, although the .577 had seen the light of day in Black powder format, the change to cordite in 1898 lead to a host of old cartridges being re-born in Cordite format as well as a new generation of "new" rounds like the .600.

There is evidence in records still with Kynamco and possibly even in the Jeffery archives of a "new" .600 Cordite round mooted in 1900 with the first test rounds appearing shortly after that date, it is even possible that Eley started development just prior to 1900 when the change over to cordite for the other calibres had already begun.

It is clear that much activity took place in the first 10 years of the 1900's with many of the big names in rifle making all striving to intorduce their own "proprietary rounds", no real adsvantage existed between many of these rounds, other than some of them looked very imposing when based on large cases such as the Number 2 .450 and .475, balistically they were all (.450 -.475's) very similar in performance except for the .500, .577 and .600's.

Although the .600 was know as the "Jeffery", it was offered to the trade shortly after its introduction, but for a number of reasons, probably the largest of which was the onset of WWI and the gradual decline thereafter of the profession of ivory hunting, to be replaced over a period of time by the sport hunter, who for reasons of proficiency found the smaller and lighter calibres in the medium to mdium large bore group from .375 to the various .470's, the heavy recoiling and heavy to carry .600, and to some degree the .577 also, fell out of favour with all but a few of the hard core hunters still eeking a living out of the taking of big-game.

There is probably no one particular reason for the introduction of the .600, not for that matter the more modern .700 other than someone somewhere wanted one, but then again what better reason can there be, if you want something badly enough that is all that matters.

For us today looking back, the existence of the .600 serves to add to the mystique of that bygone era of 100 plus pound tuskers and the days of 3 month safaris and all the romance associated with safari hunting in the long gone golden days of hunting, who can resist that.

JT

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BigFiveJack
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: JTOMLINSON]
#72579 - 27/02/07 03:28 AM

To AKMike,

To AKMike, As to the FIRST EVER 700NE, a double rifle built

by Holland and Holland, the caliber selected was the SECOND,

yes, SECOND choice of the buyer. This buyer FIRST told H&H

he wanted to order a 600NE. H&H HAD to say NO, as they had

signed a contract earlier in which H&H agreed to stop

making 600NE rifles after they had built another guy's,

sometime before the Califorian wanted one. Then the

Californian in part financed the R&D of the 700NE by H&H so

they would build the thing! His ego would not possibly allow

him to opt for the other, slightly smaller super heavy

weight classic of the CORDITE era, the 577NE, a cartridge

that was used by a substantially larger number of ivory

hunters. Surely more elephant fell to IT, than the 600NE!

See, the California guy DID NOT WANT A 700NE, HE SETTLED FOR

IT when told he could not have what he WANTED, the 600NE. As

of now, due to H&H REnegotiating with the guy who was to

have the "LAST H&H BUILT 600NE" - H&H builds 600NE rifles

again. The 700's are several pounds heavier than 600's,

don't kill better than 600's, and don't have the history of

600's. So my vote is that 700 never really should have been

conceptualized. IMO, when it comes to rifles, bigger is NOT

always better.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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500grains
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#72584 - 27/02/07 04:03 AM

Quote:

IMO, when it comes to rifles, bigger is NOT always better.

Some guys like to use the biggest rifle that they can handle because it's fun.

Some guys like a lightweight and light recoiling rifle because it makes the hike easier.

There is a place in this world for both.

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Anonymous
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#72601 - 27/02/07 08:17 AM

Quote:

With the 577 Nitro Express already in existence, [I think]why was the 600 Nitro Express developed? Was it just to "one up" the 577 NE? Did any of the old time ivory hunters who were using the 577 ever conclude that it was "not enough gun" and step up to the 600 to "correct" that situation?

There's 2 versions of the .600 first introduced by Jeffery approx. 1900 in 2 8/10 and 3 inch. Gunmakers of that period were testing everything, but anyone with any experience with big bores will tell you the .600 3" is over-powered a tad.

I own 3 .577 Nitro's - 1 Purdey, 1 Holland, and 1 Boss, and they are the best at stopping anything you may encounter close up. It's a close range calibre for certain. I remember one hunt in where my pops shot a big nasty bull at approx. 25 yards with a Rigby .577, when the bullet hit him the mud went flying into the stratosphere and he fell straight on his belly. Pops used the only pre-war Rigby ever made in .577 - the gun is now owned by Ross Seyfried, and he will most likely be baried with it I am certain.

Here is the photo of that event. 1963c

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500Nitro
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: JTOMLINSON]
#72602 - 27/02/07 08:18 AM

JTOMLINSON

Jeffrey made a 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900
which is virually identical to the first
Jeffrey 600 NE made in Feb 1901.

We can assume that the 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900
was a pre curser to the 600 ?

Not many other 577 3 1/4" NE Hammer Guns about ?

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: 500grains]
#72603 - 27/02/07 08:23 AM

What follows is all speculation, but seems logical.

With the rush to develop new cartridges for use with nitro powder, it is not a stretch to believe that Jeffery and Eley (either alone or jointly) looked around and saw the 20/577. I'm not averse to thinking that someone said to himself "Why not take a brass 20 bore case and strengthen it, add length and more rim and see what it does with this new powder and jacketed bullets?"

The rest, as they say, is history.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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bouldersmith
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
#72607 - 27/02/07 09:13 AM

Sinner,
I'm not so sure thats the only pre-war .577 3" rigby....I know of webely action Rigby retailed .577 3" falling block that is pre war. But if you meant .577 3" double than you may very well be correct. At any rate....that Rigby double is one hell of a gun.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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500Nitro
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: bouldersmith]
#72608 - 27/02/07 09:21 AM

bouldersmith

I think he means a Double Rigby 577.

I think it was writen up in Hatari Times.

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475Guy
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Loc: Kali, US

Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: ]
#72611 - 27/02/07 10:08 AM

Sinner

Can't tell from your Pop's expression whether he was glad it was over or that he was dead tired from lugging that cannon around. BTW, the very first DR I ever fired was a Jeff 577 on the bench. At the time, I was 18 and home on leave and I thought I was indestructible after firing grenades using the M-14 as a grenade launcher. Boy, was I wrong.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Anonymous
Unregistered

Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: bouldersmith]
#72615 - 27/02/07 10:39 AM

Quote:

Sinner,
I'm not so sure thats the only pre-war .577 3" rigby....I know of webely action Rigby retailed .577 3" falling block that is pre war. But if you meant .577 3" double than you may very well be correct. At any rate....that Rigby double is one hell of a gun.
Steve

I apologize, I meant in sidelock pre-war version.

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bouldersmith
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: ]
#72620 - 27/02/07 11:08 AM

sinner,
no apologies needed. I just thought I would bring up another neat rifle.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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bigdog
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Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois

Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: bouldersmith]
#72627 - 27/02/07 02:01 PM

Simply because the 700 nitro had not been thought of yet! While heavy and quite impractical, there are those that like the 700 nitro. Since its developement,there have been over a hundred 700 nitro's made and sold throughout the world. While this isn't alot, they are an expensive gun and the ammunition isn't cheap. Like 500 grains put it,some just think it is fun. Like alot of big bore gun nuts really know, need ain't got nothing to do with it.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...

Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: bigdog]
#72631 - 27/02/07 03:07 PM

*To Jonathan, Thanks for the detailed response. As usual,

lots of good stuff, [information] has found it's way to me,

from you. I'd not known how close to one another the 577NE

and the 600NE were, developmentally.

*To Sinner, What a GREAT photo and story of your Dad's hunt.

I can't imagine a guy feeling under gunned with the 577NE.

Thanks for posting!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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BigFiveJack
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: 500grains]
#72634 - 27/02/07 03:32 PM

By 500Grains

Quote:

Some guys like to use the biggest rifle that they can handle because it's fun.

Some guys like a lightweight and light recoiling rifle because it makes the hike easier.

There is a place in this world for both.

No doubt! I've enjoyed shooting a 450#2, 500NE and

577NE big bores, and 30-06, 9.3x74R and 375 HH mag too.

Still working toward the chance with a 600NE and the various

sized "bore" rifles. It's all good fun. I am just

not "taken" by these post WWII designs, [700NE and 500/416]

I especially find the idea of "one-upping" just for the

sake of doing it "distasteful". I wish that instead of H&H

doing the 700NE, they'd developed a nitro express power 12

Bore using a rimmed version of the 50 BMG and an 1100 grain

bullet with the sort of flat point like the 600 NE

Woodleigh! [12 Gauge From Hell - See AR]

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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JTOMLINSON
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Loc: York, England

Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#72645 - 27/02/07 10:36 PM

I guess if need alone were the defining criteria for ownership of a double rifle, then we would probably have never got beyond .303; .30/06 and maybe the archetypal NE round the .450 31/4", thankfully our forefathers also did not feel the need to be restrained by need for few calibres hence we have the choice today of many different but in many ways similar performing cartridges. As Dan rightly says whether you enjoy owning and shooting the smaller calibre doubles or the shoulder wrenching big bores, and for that matter if you like to shoot Dangerous game or just punch holes in paper with them it matters not, that you enjoy owning and using them is what matters.

For my part I enjoy reading on this forum of the uses each and every one makes of their own rifles and how they enjoy owning them, as we all have different wishes and thoughts then that is what matters most.

The picture of "Pop" with the Rigby was especially pleasing to see, thank you for sharing it, i suspect you are right that Mr. Seyfried is unlikely ever to part with it.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#73163 - 05/03/07 09:59 AM

BigFiveJack,

There is also the early "wildcat" the 600-577 Rewa, made for an Indian maharaja firing a 577 bulet out of a 600 NE case at higher velocities than both.

Those who would like to have a little bit of both could order one - theya re being built again these days by Holland and Holland and Hartman und Weiss.

I hope 577 Robert would post here - he has two 600-577 Rewas, a double rifle by Holland and Holland and a Hagn single shot.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mickey
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: 500Nitro]
#73209 - 05/03/07 11:26 PM

Quote:

JTOMLINSON

Jeffrey made a 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900
which is virually identical to the first
Jeffrey 600 NE made in Feb 1901.

We can assume that the 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900
was a pre curser to the 600 ?

Not many other 577 3 1/4" NE Hammer Guns about ?

I've been gone awhile and didn't see this post or I would have posted this here.

A friend, that a few of you know had a 577 3 1/4" Jeffery in 577. I can't remember the manf. date but it was '97 or 98. It had a Rose Wood stock with checkered wood butt. Weighed around 14 pounds and was marked on the barrel flats as 100 grains Cordite, 750 grain bullet.

It was a Jones underlever and came complete with around 100 Kynoch cases, most unfired, a couple of hundred new Berdan primers and about a pound of Cordite. It came with some Hollywood dies obviously added at a latter date.

I have never seen this load by Kynoch or Ely so can only assume that it has always been a rifle that required the owner to handload it.

My friend bought it from a Merchant seaman in Portland Ore., who had purchased it in Liverpool right after WWII, for $1500 dollars in the mid 80's and sold it around 1990 for a substantial profit, enough to buy a new 600 NE. It was later sold through Ted Wood in New York and has dissappeared as far as I know.

I can only hope that at the selling price it has found a loving home. I saw Ted in September and asked if he remembered the rifle or the buyer but he didn't. He is retired and I don't know if he even has any of records anymore.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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dnovo
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: mickey]
#73346 - 08/03/07 12:42 AM

Was there a 'need' for the 600NE? Technically speaking one could answer this easily as no since the 577 was more than ample as a 'stopper' and, according to some, would penetrate better -- a function of the bullet design rather than anything else. But that still does not answer the 'why' of the 600 nor, for that matter, the 700 NE or H&H.

There is a long-standing observation in American handgunning/Western lore which may answer this question. Legend has it (and repeated in a recent biography of retired Texas Ranger) that a lady walked up to a Ranger some years ago and asked him what he was doing with that large and obviously heavy sidearm. He replied it was a Colt 1911 '45.' She asked, "why do you carry a 45?" His answer may answer the inquiry as to why a 600:

"Because they don't make a 50 or I'd be packin' one of those."

Sure the 577 was 'adequate' but a 600 is more 'adequate.'

Ironically 'they' do make a 50 on the 1911 platform now, but therein also lies a tale.

The 600 has been 'one upped' by the 700. While I have never had the chance to try one (as I suspect few of us have) it is an obviously large and expensive item and its utility has been questioned by many far more astute than this writer. On the other hand, I own and shot a Guncrafter Industries 50 GI, a superbly built and very, very practical upgrade of the basic 1911 platform. The builder went to a larger bullet, designed to deliver a bigger punch with managable recoil and functining for real world usage. Given a variety of loads, it is suitable for target use, personal defense, and police/security purposes. (It is also one of the finest-built and functioning 1911s you can buy.)

I suspect that mythical Texas Ranger would now be packing the 50. But how many 700s find their way into use? I assume most spend their time gracing the insides of a gun vault.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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BigFiveJack
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: dnovo]
#73683 - 12/03/07 12:04 PM

So now we have a 4 bore shooting 2000 grn bullets at 2000

FPS. I admit it must be way cool

to shoot a DR that

makes a one inch hole in paper targets. And it must be

something to see when a bull wearing 150 or 200 totaL

pounds of ivory takes a round or two into it's enormous

skull. A mental image that would stay fresh for ever I bet.

But what caliber will knock an ellie down for a couple of

minutes if the brain is missed by 4 inches or there about,

from a shot taken at 20 yards. This IS the caliber that

would get my vote for the largest LEGITIMATE hunting rifle.

Bigger is just HEAVIER! Where Do we ultimately go, to a '1'

bore [1.669 inch diameter] rifle weighing fifty pounds!?!?

How about a 2,500 NE at 75 pounds. I wish BUZZ CHARLTON or

other equally experienced men were posters here and

extended to us their experience regarding this question.

Pondoro wrote that most old ivory hunters, if they

decided that 500 grn bullets were too light in certain

situations, would skip the 500 NE 570 grainer and pick a

577 NE 750 grainer or 600 NE 900 grainer, because if you

NEED more than 500 grns you don't need just 70 grns more,

you need a WHOLE LOT MORE!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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Badger_Matt
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Loc: Simpsonville, SC

Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#73685 - 12/03/07 12:30 PM

Jack,

You ought to buy Will Stewart Jr's "Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" on AR. He's been there and done a bit of that...and wrote a classy tome. As I recall, he also talks about about brain shot near misses.

Hope to see you again next time Mike hosts a doubles shoot. Just loaded up 40 rds of 470 NE for us to play with.

Cheers,
Matt

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BigFiveJack
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: Badger_Matt]
#73686 - 12/03/07 12:33 PM

Good tip Matt, hope to shoot with you

& the North East DRSS sub group SOON!

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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unspellable
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Re: Why Create The 600 Nitro Express [Re: BigFiveJack]
#73907 - 15/03/07 10:22 AM

I had always heard that the 600 was not really a "hunting" rifle but rather, a "backup" rifle for when you had to go into close cover and "sort things out".

I think it's safe to say the reason for the 700 is that it's bigger than a 600, period.

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