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LightningTwice
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Reged: 01/01/04
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Loc: Southcentral Alaska
.22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project
      #6375 - 02/01/04 01:05 AM

Just sharing a little info on a type of side-by-side double rifle that I've dreamed about for many years, but am now finally doing something about it.

I've toyed with the idea of having a .22 LR rimfire double rifle custom built for me on a small-frame, small-gauge (preferably .410) shotgun. At present, I am looking for a suitable, older, higher-grade shotgun--preferably American-made--but a nice British, Scottish or European double of comparable frame/gauge size and quality would certainly be considered. And for this project, I am not interested in simply having rifle inserts placed inside the shotgun tubes, although I know that it would certainly be less expensive to do so.

Instead, I want it to have two fully-rifled barrels of nice, slim tapered profile and topped off with multiple-leaf, express-type open sights. In overall appearance, I want it to look just like a dangerous-game "express" double rifle, but proportionally scaled down for the .22 rimfire caliber.

When I find the shotgun of suitable quality, frame size and gauge or bore--and, of course, with solid, reliable lockwork--then the condition of the shotgun barrels will dictate how the project proceeds.

If the shotgun barrels are damaged beyond easy repair and unsalvageable, they'll then be cut off just ahead of the monoblock and a new set of rifled barrels will be fitted to the monoblock. This will require the firing pins to be bushed to be able to fire the .22 rimfire cartridge.

On the other hand, if the shotgun barrels are in good, safe shooting condition, I'll then have my custom builder take the exact dimensions of the frame and barrels--and have him make up a completely new monoblock from scratch--thus, having a very nice double with two sets of barrels: one in shotgun; one in .22 rimfire.

Then, of course, the builder will have to regulate the barrels for me using one specific rimfire load of my choosing and (one hopes) the regulating wouldn't turn out to be too much of a long, drawn-out problem. I'd be looking to get point-of- impact (POI) as close as possible at about the 50-yard range. We'll see. If this first project rifle goes well, I'll be considering having the same thing done in .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire, regulated for a close POI at about the 100-yard mark.

As to WHY I'd want such a rifle? Because--FOR ME--I'd have a blast shooting and hunting with it! That's why. Do I really need it? No. And I'm sure some of my other rimfire rifles, especially the higher-grade bolt-actions, would most definitely yield tighter groups, but that's okay.

So for now, I am presently in communication with two very experienced gunbuilders here in the U.S., both of whom have extensive experience in such double-shotgun-to-double-rifle conversions. Now... to find the right candidate-gun for conversion!

Regards,

"Lightning Twice"





--------------------
"Speak softly, but carry a big stick... and know how to use it."

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6388 - 02/01/04 07:14 AM

LT

What a nifty project, please keep us informed about your progress. I have seen two such rifles in 22 LR. Both are owned by Bob Peterson of Peterson's Publishing. One is a H&H and the other a Marcel Thys. They are both built to scale with Chopper Lump barrels and are are really neat. About 5 lbs I would guess.

I wonder if .22 ammo is consistent enough by Lot for regulation? The lack of recoil should make it easier to regulate than a larger caliber but much more sensitive to changes.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6390 - 02/01/04 09:04 AM

Welcome. Interesting & unusual project.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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mcb
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Reged: 18/12/03
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6405 - 03/01/04 02:25 AM

That sounds like a sweet project. I have seen picture of one in an issue of the Double Gun Journal. It was a beautiful gun. Definitly keep us informed with update as the project progress.

If I may make a suggestion. Select a good match grade ammuntion when you start your regulation. Match grade ammuntions is much more consistant than most other 22LR ammo. (sorry if that point was obvious). The hyper velocity stuff although having a nice percentage more energy are real inconsistant in velocity.

Rimfire barrels are also horribly finicky about what ammo they do and do not like. You might want to test a bunch of different ammunition in the barrels and find which brand groups well in both individual barrels well before you start regulating them with a particular ammo.

www.rimfirecentral.com is an excellent web site for information and help with rimfires. I'm sure some of the guys over there would love to here about your project.

You could also make the cape gun version were you have a 22LR barrel and 410 barrel side by side.

Sounds like a fun project and a fun gun to hunt squirrel and bunnies with.

later
mcb

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6457 - 04/01/04 01:34 AM

LightningTwice:
Even if you lop the existing shotgun tubes and sleeve in the .22 barrels, you can still use existing firing pins etc if you sleeve the rimfire barrels into a pair of off-set 'intermediate' short sleeves, and then sleeve these into the monobloc.

Your call on which is cheapest/easiest.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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LightningTwice
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6458 - 04/01/04 02:13 AM

Thank you for the input, gentlemen. I do appreciate it. Yes, I agree that match-grade rimfire ammo would likely yield the most consistent, repeatable groups with such a firearm and that would be my first choice during regulation of the barrels.

As for RimfireCentral--nice bunch of folks over there. I've posted there a few times on various topics, including this one.

The points made on a "cape" gun project and off-setting sleeves inside the barrels to negate bushing the firing pins are also well-taken. Thanks again.

Best Regards,

"LightningTwice"

--------------------
"Speak softly, but carry a big stick... and know how to use it."

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Rusty
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6459 - 04/01/04 02:14 AM

Sounds like a great project! I have often lusted after the idea of a double rifle in 22 Hornet.

As far as regulation goes, just pick the ammo you like. I know that the 2 time defending Texas State Champion in .22 metallic silhouette used a Contender match barrel with a Leupold scope and Winchester Western Wildcat over the counter ammo.

When you get to regulating the rifle buy all the .22 ammo in the same lot. I figure you don't need any more than 10-15 thousand round! I mean if you are like me you'll shoot the heck out of that rifle!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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LightningTwice
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6460 - 04/01/04 02:35 AM

Thanks, Rusty! Once completed, I do plan to "shoot the heck" out of it. And with all the spring-time gardening I like to do up here, I may just need such a weapon and a bunch of ammo to fight off our notorious "Alaska State Bird"--the MOSQUITO!!!

Regards,

"LightningTwice"

--------------------
"Speak softly, but carry a big stick... and know how to use it."

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mickey
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6463 - 04/01/04 03:46 AM

LT

If you plan to use this for a Mossy Rifle I suggest you keep the 410 barrels and make the rifle at least a .22 Mag. Shoot Solids.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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nopride2
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6533 - 05/01/04 01:07 PM

Nick Mackinson.

Dave

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Crazyquik
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Reged: 21/12/03
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: nopride2]
      #6558 - 06/01/04 06:34 AM

How would one regulate a gun with rifled tube inserts? Shim the muzzle end of them?

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vigillinus
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Reged: 11/12/03
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: LightningTwice]
      #6628 - 07/01/04 10:58 AM

Saw one by Francotte at gunsmith Judson Darrow's in CT maybe thirty years ago.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: Crazyquik]
      #6999 - 16/01/04 06:28 AM

In reply to:

How would one regulate a gun with rifled tube inserts? Shim the muzzle end of them?



Crazyquik, liners are not the way to go to build a double rifle from a shotgun, even in .22lr! with a 410 double, one can cut the barrels off just in front of the chambers, and square the muzzel end of each barrel butt with the face of the barrel. Bore out the old chambers to remove the steel all the way out to within the thread depth of the diameter of the "RIM" of the 410 shot shell, then thread. Then turn down the chamber end of the barrel blanks so they can be threaded into the old shot chamber area to flush with the chamber end of the old barrels. Once this is fitted to the barrel butts (which are now what is known as a mono-block)they are then removed and chambered! screwed back into the mono-block, and the regulation can be done in the normal manner.Of course the fireing pins have to be modified for the rim fire, and actually the 22 Hornet, or 218 Bee, is a far better idea, simply because it is center fire! After the regulation is complete, then cut can be milled in the chamber faces for the extractor, the ribs fitted, and final sights fitted.

There is actually a lot more to it than what I have just described, but that would take a book to explain! Once you get into it, it becomes painfully clear why "REAL" double rifles cost so much, and how much skill is really involved!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7020 - 16/01/04 03:13 PM

I'll second the 22 hornet idea... heck, maybe even go to 222 or 223 rem???

awesome idea man, absolutely awesome... I'd love to have one some day... there are lots of good 410 doubles out there too... IIRC SKB makes one, and I've seen dozens of Krieghofs... sounds like a ton of fun... keep us updated!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Marrakai
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7059 - 18/01/04 02:02 PM

Mac:
Sleeving the .22 barrels into the monobloc requires fairly difficult firing-pin work, however sleeving the .22 tubes into a pair of short off-set intermediate sleeves, and then sleeving them into the monobloc (striking up a neat taper), has two big advantages:
1. Original firing pins can be used,
2. The distance apart at the muzzles is reduced (if only a little), hence reducing the width of the rib (which will be looking bloody wide and flat in a .22 since almost no convergence is required, and the barrels can be slimmed down enormously at the muzzles for weight and handling considerations).

Great project lightningtwice, we will be expecting photos in the near future!!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #7130 - 20/01/04 04:00 AM

personally, just for handling considerations, I'd leave the barrels a bit heavier (not full-blown bull-barrel heavy, but definitely heavier than average!). I find that a bit more weight out front in a double is a good thing for balance and consistency in swing.... case in point, a 12ga, 20" S/S is VERY hard to really "even out" where a 30" 12ga o/u is cake (most 28s are prefect)... anyway, you get my point... that weight helps smooth the movements...

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #7143 - 20/01/04 09:56 AM

Marrakai, you are correct in the off set bushing, to avoid makeing new fireing pins for the rimfire .22. It only requires a little extra threading or sweating in, and one must be very careful to position both barrels in the exact possition on the index. Not a big deal, but the barrels should be at the top center of the Mono-block, to make fileing in the mono-block to flow into the diameter of the barrels, and not look odd. The width wouldn't be any narrower, though!

The little centerfire .22 Hornet, would not only let you reload for the rifle, but do away with any fireing pin mods, whether in the sleeving system, or in modifying the pins themselves. With the 410 shotgun, the barrels could be left the same diameter as the shot tubes, so existing ribs could be used with very little fitting. To ballance the rifle you simply make the barrels a little shorter, and that wouldn't take much shortening when you consider the weight of 4" of both barrels, and ribs, top and bottom.

However, if one simply must have a double in .22 lr, then simply make a set of barrels from scratch, that will meet the existing pins. This would allow you to have a two barrel set, with the 410 barrels, and the .22 Lr rifle barrels. With no chamber pressure,or regulation to speak of the fitting the rifle barrels will not be very complex, for anyone with a little machine savy.


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Marrakai
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7168 - 20/01/04 09:30 PM

Mac:
Pretty sure the one I have seen was built by off-setting the .22 barrels inwards, not top-dead-centre. It didn't look strange at all, since the 'inside' taper is covered by the rib, and not obvious. The outside barrel-taper is slightly steeper, like most SxS shotguns. Also, no need to thread with a .22, just tin them in. Keep it simple...

Cheers.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #7189 - 21/01/04 05:48 AM

You are right in keeping it simple. With .22 lr as the cartridge of choice, that is an easy thing to do! No worries about barrels time, because there is no recoil, no need to worry about pressures, there is none to speak of.

I have seen several double rifles made in 22 lr, but I have never seen one made on a mono-block, most were made from scratch, with the actions actually made for .22 lr as well.

Because of the low pressure, and no heavy regulation drawbacks, anyone with a little "handy gene" in their blood, a file, a propane torch, and vice, can make a set of barrels for a 22 lr double rifle! Just about any way you do it, will work, the only thing that makes a difference, to me, is the quality of the finished product. No matter the size of the chamber, the rifle should be a thing of beauty, and ballance, when finished,otherwise why bother?

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: Marrakai]
      #7208 - 21/01/04 11:37 AM

Marrakai
Yeah, I'd want to get the barrels as close together as possible simply to keep the gun looking trim.
I've seen a few shottie to double rifle conversions that ended up with a wide barrel spacing at the muzzles and they look ugly and clubby.

In reply to:

No worries about barrels time, because there is no recoil, no need to worry about pressures, there is none to speak of.



Mac
Barrel time is only an issue(rimfire or centerfire) when you are trying to duplicate the barrel time of a load that a gun was originally regulated to shoot.

When building a double rifle from scratch, barrel time will be determined by whatever load you intend to use and the barrels will need to be regulated to suit that load and its actual barrel time is neither here nor there so long as you continue to use that same load.

When it comes to doing the regulation on a 22 rimfire double, the actual job of getting the barrels to shoot together will be just as involved as with any other double and will also depend to some degree on how the barrels are constructed and joined.
The only thing which will make it less difficult is that it is much easier to do the shooting during regulation, with a 22 rimfire than with a big hard kicking NE cartridge.

Also regarding pressure, the little 22 rimfire still has enough pressure to cause damage and possible injury if it is not contained.
While any 410 SXS action should easily handle the much lower 22 rimfire pressure there are other things to consider.
Things like how well the extractors fit into their recess within the chamber and also how much clearance the firing pins have within their bushings.
These two areas are IMO where the 22 rimfire case can and sometimes does rupture if the fit is in any way loose, especially with the "hot" rimfire cartridges.

In reply to:

After the regulation is complete, then cut can be milled in the chamber faces for the extractor, the ribs fitted, and final sights fitted


Mac, I'd be interested to know why you would want to complete the regulation on a double BEFORE the ribs have been fitted/layed?

Edited by 4seventy (21/01/04 11:43 AM)

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: 4seventy]
      #7222 - 21/01/04 04:18 PM

I hate to disalusion you, 4seventy, but barrel time is always involved in the regulation of a double rifle durring it's factory regulation as well. The time the bullet stays in the barrel, in relation to recoil is what determines how much the barrels converge, and how they point at the the target in relation to the sights.

True it is much easier to do the regulation (adjusting the barrels to a known load) than it is to find the proper load for a rifle already regulated to a unknown load. Calling the working up of a load to shoot to the barrels is mistakenly called "REGULATION", by most folks, but that is not a proper phrase. Regulation is a phycical process, of actually adjusting the convergence of the barrels.

The .22 Lr is easier to regulate because the muzzel flip, high velocity, is not involved, and they simply must be convereged or spread till they both hit together on the target. The elevation isn't a problem till the final sights are installed.

The hardest chambering to "REGULATE" is one that is very fast. This makes the barrel time so short, the the adgustments are so finite, that it is almost imposible. H&H built a double for someone chambered for .225 Winchester, and it took them over 100 rounds to get it shooting, because of the 3600 fps it developed.

PS:
4seventy, i didn't see your last question till I had already posted, Sorry!

The final regulation can only be done before the ribs, on a .22 Lr rifle, again because the muzzle flip is not involved. A cartridge that has a large amount of recoil is also regulated mostly before the ribs are installed, then a final regulation is done after. Sometimes it is needed, and some times it isn't, especially, when done by a REAL regulator. Most factory regulators can join the barrels very close to their final fit, by an educated guess, from past experience!



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (21/01/04 04:35 PM)

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4seventy
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7227 - 21/01/04 05:52 PM

In reply to:

I hate to disalusion you, 4seventy, but barrel time is always involved in the regulation of a double rifle durring it's factory regulation as well. The time the bullet stays in the barrel, in relation to recoil is what determines how much the barrels converge, and how they point at the the target in relation to the sights



Mac,
No you havn't disillusioned me at all but I feel you may have missed the point I was trying to make.
Barrel time can indeed influence the convergance and sighting etc, and also affect where the bullet will impact the target, and changing the barrel time will (usually) change the point of impact at the target.

My point is that you or I or most other owners of doubles would not have the faintest idea what the measured "barrel time " of their loads would be!
The point also is that they do not need to!
Most could tell you the following......
Exact powder weight in grains
Exact bullet weight in grains
Exact wadding weight in grains (if used)
Average velocity in feet per second
Average group sizes measured in fractions of an inch.
Distance in yards the groups wer shot at

But how many nanoseconds (or whatever measurement is used) of "barrel time" is there in a particular rifle/load combination?

In reply to:

Calling the working up of a load to shoot to the barrels is mistakenly called "REGULATION", by most folks, but that is not a proper phrase. Regulation is a phycical process, of actually adjusting the convergence of the barrels.





Most folks maybe but not this one, as I am well aware of what the true use of the word regulation actually means, and rest assured that if I use the term I am talking about the physical positioning of the barrels.

The thing is that if you are building a new set of double rifle barrels, you will be either using factory loaded or handloaded ammo.
The load to be used will have to meet certain standards including.........
Producing good consistant individual barrel groups
Producing a velocity acceptable for the cartridge/barrel length
Producing acceptable pressure by double rifle standards
Using a projectile suitable for the load and the game to be hunted.
Also other things including component availability.

But nowhere is there a requirement to achieve a specific "barrel time"!
The load chosen will produce a certain "barrel time" and this will indeed have an influence on the bullets path and its impact point, and the amount of convergance required, but the barrels are then "REGULATED" and the two individual barrel groups are physicly brought together.

All this is achieved without anyone needing to know anything about "barrel time" other than the fact that it does exist!

When attempting to duplicate the load for an existing (old)double we are in fact trying to get close to the "barrel time" that the original cartridge produced in that rifle, but again we do not have any figures on the "barrel time" and we do not need any to get the job done.

Sure, "barrel time" exists and yes it affects the bullets path and yes we can alter it by changing load components,
but so long as that is understood, what more do we need to know?
If a double is shooting apart and the chronograph is showing a low velocity we can presume that the "barrel time " may be too long and we need to decrease it(the barrel time) slightly by increasing the velocity.

But the load alteration will be done by changing the figures for powder weights/types and bullet weights/types etc, not by manipulating figures for"barrel time".

When Regulating a double for a specific cartridge, factory or handload, the "regulator" can do absolutely nothing to alter or change the "barrel time".
His job is to achieve correct regulation of the barrels to bring the two groups together regardless of what the "barrel time" may or may not be.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that once a particular load is selected to be the one used in the double, yes "barrel time" is involved but it cannot at that stage be altered so it is of little matter.
The regulators job is to get the barrels and sights aligned regardless of what "barrel time" the cartridge produces.








Edited by 4seventy (21/01/04 06:38 PM)

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DUGABOY1
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: 4seventy]
      #7243 - 22/01/04 05:11 AM

4Seventy, all you just did was take two pages to say the same thing I just posted! Congratulations!

Nobody said anyone knows WHAT the barrel time is exactly, and it doesn't matter, as you say. We know it is too slow, or too fast by the way the bullets print on the target. Barrel time, for all practical purposes, only comes into play if paired with recoil. That is what I was trying to say in relation to the little .22 lr, in a 7 lbs double rifle, it can be disregarded for the most part, because it has so little recoil that the barrels simply have to be spread, or norrowed till they shoot to the same POI, and do not have to be converged till the line of sight crosses, and points low. They do not have to point on opposite sides of the aiming point,and low, to regulate, as a rifle with recoil would. Any rifle that has a lot of recoil, if a lazer is placed in each barrel, the line of the static bore sighting, would print a spot on a target as low, and left of POI, for the right barrel, and low and right of the POI on on the target for the left barrel, with the iron sights on POI. With a cartridge like the .22 lr, they can both be almost paralell. All I'm saying is, the 22 lr wouldn't be hard to regulate at all, because barrel time plays so little there, because it has no recoil to be paired with, plus being slow.

4Seventy, we are saying the same thing, just useing different words. I have no idea if you have ever built new barrels for a double rifle, or have physicly re-regulated a set of barrels to a different load, but I have no doubt you could, given your apparent working knoweldge of the idiosyncracies of double rifles. I have, however built a number of barrels for doubles and physically re-regulated many more, for different loads,over the years. My regulations have historicly printed four shots in no more than 3" at point of regulation,usually 100 yds, but some of the larger calibers at 50 yds. So I think I understand the process, as I'm sure you do! I think we are preaching to the choir by telling each other how it is done. That isn't all bad, however, because there are many here who do not understand it, and may benifit from our banter!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (22/01/04 05:17 AM)

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4seventy
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Re: .22 LR Rimfire Double Rifle Project [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7251 - 22/01/04 08:52 AM

In reply to:

That isn't all bad, however, because there are many here who do not understand it, and may benifit from our banter!



Mac, exactly why I started the discussion!

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