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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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littlbigd
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Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 12
Loc: Anchorage, AK
15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get?
      #71338 - 13/02/07 02:40 AM

I (will) have a budget of about 15- 20k available to me when I get my end of year bonus. I don't own a double rifle yet but I want to get one for Elephant safari and I would probably use it on buffalo also.

With all the common considerations such as accuracy, reliability, comfort and balance; which double rifle would you get, from who and just as importantly - why?

Thanks!

- Brian

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: littlbigd]
      #71340 - 13/02/07 03:00 AM

I'd get a used entry level Merkel in .500 and use the leftover cash for extra trophy fees or Taxidermy. Spending an extra 8-12K on a rifle isn't going to make the rifle mean more to you after you've taken a few elephant and buffalo with it. After the safari, it's all gonna be about the animals taken with the rifle, not the engraving or wood quality or maker's name.

JMHO,

John

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: littlbigd]
      #71350 - 13/02/07 05:27 AM

I would go for a British manufactured webley long bar actioned (pre-war) DR. There is an excellent Army Navy 470NE on gun broker right now, and the reserve is around $20k

I have also seen some Rigby's around for $22k-$24k

Given the fact you have never hunted a "tusker" before I would assume that your PH will have you at a safe distance in which case a 470 will do the job best.

Also take resale in to account, as this is a major investment and not just a mear tool in your case. You will want to get your money out of it, and it may even appreciate a bit in your short time with it being the most popular calibre overall.

Stay (pre-war) the market is always more adapt to those DR's for higher resale. Stay away from new Merkel stuff, its not even comparable in this case.

Bye your gun this year, shoot it and get used to it.

Next year book your hunt for September if going to Africa, and in the meantime read "in the salt" by Lou Hallamore.

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: ]
      #71355 - 13/02/07 06:07 AM

I have to agree with droplock on this. Unless you are very experienced with cartridges that typically shoot 500 bullets I would stick with the 470 as a first double.

If you look around for a while you can probably find a British one close to your budget. And in a few years it will have appreciated, while a Merkel or Heym will lose 25% the moment you open the box.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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littlbigd
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Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 12
Loc: Anchorage, AK
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
      #71363 - 13/02/07 08:47 AM

Every day that you can learn something new is a good day. I have been looking at Heym and Merkel ever since I made the first post and now I have second and third opinions. Thank you.

Is there a reason you would recommend a 470 as a first double other then recoil? I have an extensive special operations background with quite a lot of combat experience. I have to say recoil and even the 'Tusker' itself dont intimidate me as much as the cost. Naivety and ignorance on my part could be a legitimate part of this but with sincerity I do have to say I have not choked in combat yet.... key word being yet. I think anyone with experience in these matters, to which I definitely include a charging dangerous game, knows the humility that anything is possible in such a life or death scenario.

And I have to ask, only again displaying my inexperience with double rifles: pre war is which war? WW2?

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: littlbigd]
      #71369 - 13/02/07 09:47 AM

Quote:

Every day that you can learn something new is a good day. I have been looking at Heym and Merkel ever since I made the first post and now I have second and third opinions. Thank you.

Is there a reason you would recommend a 470 as a first double other then recoil? I have an extensive special operations background with quite a lot of combat experience. I have to say recoil and even the 'Tusker' itself dont intimidate me as much as the cost. Naivety and ignorance on my part could be a legitimate part of this but with sincerity I do have to say I have not choked in combat yet.... key word being yet. I think anyone with experience in these matters, to which I definitely include a charging dangerous game, knows the humility that anything is possible in such a life or death scenario.

And I have to ask, only again displaying my inexperience with double rifles: pre war is which war? WW2?



Your war combat background will help greatly IMHO. It's very close to the same rush you feel when barring down on the enemy or visa versa. However, Elephants are unique and depending on how you intend to hunt them, ie; "given your current rookie status with Elephants" can be very dangerous when close up. So to be kind your not ready for that reality or how to handle a .577 with only 2 shots when being charged. The military 50cal you've probably been shooting is mince meat next to a 577 nitros recoil. I have a 50 Mcmillon with infa red so I know.

Recoil is not the issue here though. Its functionality, performance, and return on your investment. Since your at a starter level with your budget, this makes the most sence for the long haul. The 470 is a known favorite of many of us, and thus resale is always a premium in this calibre when on the right gun (Pre-war British/Scotish). The 577 calibre was built to stop a charging elephant, and does a nice job of it. Its a close range gun, the 470 will do both in the right hands.

Pre-war refers to guns built up to the end of WWII, I always look for guns built between 1904-1945. By 1904 most makers had gotten used to the change from black to nitro...

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Savuti_One_Shot
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: ]
      #71373 - 13/02/07 10:34 AM

LBD,
I just spent the better part of 30 mins composing a brillant, IMHO, response to your post.
When I hit the send button, it all disappeared. Apparently the server timed me out.
It WAS a lengthy post and I just can't hunt n peck any faster.
After I scraped myself off the ceiling and thought about it calmly, (and since this is the 2nd time it's done this to me) I'd suggest we continue this by email.
That way I know I won't get timed out! pdwilk at nni dot com

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #71374 - 13/02/07 10:41 AM

Get a used Merkel 500NE and see if you like it and can tolerate the smack.Use the rest of the $$ for Safari I feel the 500NE balances much better than their 470NE(which feels much more barrel heavy)

Go on Safari and then sell it for something bigger or better handling like a best quality English Double if you wish.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (13/02/07 10:42 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #71378 - 13/02/07 11:22 AM

I heartily agree with hoppdoc on this. The Merkel .500 is an excellent gun and probably delivers more value per dollar than anything available today. If you find one on the used market you will suffer no depreciation other than wear and tear on the rifle. Another thing to consider: A vintage Brit DR will lose a lot of value taking the beating it is likely to receive on a safari.

In the end, look around, handle as many DR's as you can, and make your mind up. If you were here in VA I would gladly let you shoot my Merkel .500NE.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: CptCurl]
      #71381 - 13/02/07 11:44 AM

Another thing to consider: A vintage Brit DR will lose a lot of value taking the beating it is likely to receive on a safari.


Curl




Roscoe respectfully. Is something wrong with that statement or is it just me? I hunt with all of my expensive guns, that is why I own them, the few small (barely visible) dings to the wood or very minor wear to the finishes you may encounter on Safari does not diminish value in most cases. IMHO it only adds to the misteak of the classic, and its continued service as a worthy weapon.

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Showbart
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 29
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: ]
      #71384 - 13/02/07 12:55 PM

With your budget I would not get a Merkel, I would get a British gun, it will be used already, it wont't lose value if you use it.

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Pilgrim
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Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: Showbart]
      #71388 - 13/02/07 01:19 PM

If you are like most in the frozen notth, you get to the lower 48 every year or so. Next time down go see George Caswell in Enid OK, or just call and talk with him (Champlin Firearms), plus you can talk about cartridges and the whatfor and whyfors of the various decisions. If you get to his place handle a bunch of rifles. Based upon his reputation...he will guide you right and not simply sell you a rifle. If I had the $$, I would be talking to him about a Johann Michelitsch .458 Win. Magnum (Austrian, 1957 vintage), and having them rechamber and re-regulate it to the .450 3 1/4 NE for you. That way you can use .458 bullets you can buy pretty much anyplace. If you shoot it as much as you should prior to your trip, the cost difference between +/- $70 for a box of 50 vs. $30 will add up PDQ. He has had this rifle on his site for a while and I suspect he would treat you well on that kind of purchase. Your chances of losing much money on that kind of deal wouldn't be terribly large, plus you would have a nice rifle for the alders in AK.

Second choice would be to join SCI and attend their annual convention the end of Jan. in Reno, NV. At that convention you will be able to handle and fondle, and ...every kind of double rifle imaginable, including double bolt guns, $300,000+ DR's, $10,000 DR's, and everything in between. Most (*but not all) of the larger DR dealers attend that convention and you can talk to them face to face. With one exception, I found them quite nice to talk to and interested in helping you to make a good choice for you, not necessarily them. FWIW.....Pilgrim

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Posts: 5284
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Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: ]
      #71392 - 13/02/07 02:01 PM

droplock101,

Ok you called my hand on that one. I made a categorical statement which doesn't apply across the board.

Like you, I hunt with my better stuff. I'm pretty careful with it, that's for sure.

We had a heck of a cold snap during deer season in November, 2005. I recall one Saturday morning I met a friend before daylight. It was 12 degrees F. There was about 4 inches of snow on the ground at the top of the mountain where we went to hunt. We got on the ground about 6:00 a.m. well before first light. I was hunting with my Merkel .500NE (I know, a bit overkill for a white tail deer). While easing through the woods to my stand, in the pre-dawn darkness my foot came down on a slick tree branch under the snow. It was one of those instances where your feet come out from under you in an instant. I hit the rocky ground hard. I'm usually good at protecting a rifle in a slip like that, but not that day. The Merkel had a good whack on the ground and still wears the marks. Had it been one of my best guns I would have been terribly put out. As it was, I got up, dusted the snow off me and the Merkel, and went on my way.

My point is, I'm much more care-free with the Merkel than with a vintage Brit DR.

Still, I appreciate your point. I do agree.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: Pilgrim]
      #71393 - 13/02/07 02:08 PM

Couple of points I would like to comment on:

Nothing wrong with a new working double at their current price, either Merkel or its competitors.

A .500 NE is not a good beginner's double in my opinion either. Too brutal at the range, and too heavy for daily practice in the woods. The .450 to .470 class is more sensible as others have said, and a .400 is a delight.

You and I rarely disagree, Curl, but IMHO Brit guns will not 'deteriorate' if used in the field. They were designed to do just that. ...and most have done just that for decades, before falling into the hands of modern collectors or quasi-collectors. I hunt with mine routinely in the tropics, where they are subjected to rivers of sweat, insect repellent, storm-rain, blood, etc on a daily basis. I'd like to see a Chapuis after a few decades of that! My Brit DRs have all doubled in value in the interim, BTW.

I'm having palpitations at the thought of the Brit DRs I could buy at auction in Australia or the UK with 15 to 20 thousand US dollars!



Savuti:
If I may, the message you get at time-out is this:

Quote:

The form you have submitted is no longer valid.
Please use your back button to return to the previous page.



If you hit the back button, you should find your post is still there. Highlight the text, copy, and then blow it away and return to the thread. Scroll down to the 'new' reply box, and paste.

Then it should upload OK.

I certainly agree that this is a PITA, as I often go and look up some detail during a reply-post, and get the 'time-out' way too often.

Can you fix this, John?


Oops, posted in on top of you Curl. You're welcome to disregard my comments...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by Marrakai (13/02/07 02:20 PM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: Showbart]
      #71395 - 13/02/07 02:43 PM

Quote:

With your budget I would not get a Merkel, I would get a British gun, it will be used already, it wont't lose value if you use it.



If anyone where to find used British .500 NE doubles, please tell me!

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: littlbigd]
      #71409 - 13/02/07 06:20 PM

Brian, I'm going to be bullet testing with my 10 double this weekend at Birchwood. Not a 500, but at 11.5lb about the same weight and you definitely know it when it goes off. I've got a few smaller ones (all Brit, 1870's-1915) that you're welcome to handle to get an idea of what you want. If you're not too hung over from hashing pm me and come on out!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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hoppdoc
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Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: Marrakai]
      #71411 - 13/02/07 07:31 PM

Not to offend but won't any Double, even Best quality Brit guns bluing and wood deteriorate with usage?

I thought a read about one of Mark Sullivans 577's high dollar Double(although not a Brit gun)that showed signifigant wear from Africa.

I would venture with the signifigant environmental problems of the summer in Africa, human sweat and handling, that any Best Quality Double would suffer.

Am I wrong??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
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Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #71412 - 13/02/07 07:57 PM

As far as caliber, I really dont notice a difference in recoil vetween a 470 and a 500 assuming proper fit and weight. Also, if you are looking at vintage DR's, 470's tend to cost a bit more then the same gun in 500 from what I have seen. Personally I prefer a 500. I would not get a 577 as a first double as it is heavier and quite specialized.

New/Vintage...

It really depends. They both have their place in the world and their own pros/cons.

If you buy a vintage rifle make sure you buy from a reputable dealer and also have it sent to a third party with lots of experience with DR's for a check up during the inspection period. I think accuracy between the two is kind of a wash.

A couple cons that I see with buying a vintage rifle are...

No warranty. If something breaks, you will likely have to fix it out of your own pocket which can be $$$$.

Price tends to be higher then the various entry level Heym, Searcy, Chapuis, Merkel's.

It isn't built for you so you can't specify which options you want/don't want and you may have to alter the stock to fit you.

If you don't reload may be a pain to get ammo that shoots to regulation.

You can really get taken if you dont do your homework and due diligence.

Pros for a vintage rifle;

If you buy right and take good care of it they will almost always appreciate in value.

Seem to be more svelte and sexy then the modern offerings and I would say balance better as a whole (Pre war brit).

Fit and finish tends to be better on vintage rifles from what I have seen.

Pros for a new rifle...

Can specify options on some makes (Ejectors/extractors, stock dimensions, reasonable changes in weight, bbl length, regulation load, Sights, Wood quality, etc...)

Warranty.

Tend to be less expensive.

Modern steel.

Can be regulated with factory ammo or a known load that is easy for yourself or a company like Superior Ammo to duplicate.

Cons..

Depreciates (not usually that much though as the price for the same rifle will go up over the years that you own it.)

Balance, fit and feel. This varies from maker to maker. Some are a bit clubby, some handle/balance very well (in my opinion). Just need to handle them and see what fits you the best and is the most comfortable.

Wait to get it can be looooong.

If you are looking at new rifles I would take a serious look at Heym and Searcy & Co. Both are very good rifles, are in your price bracket, are relatively bomb proof, quite accurate and I think handle very well.

If Vintage I would take the advice given above and stick with Pre War British.

Good Luck and keep us updated.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Posts: 5284
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Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: bulldog563]
      #71416 - 13/02/07 10:39 PM

Is Heym making their plain-jane model in .450/.400 3"? There was some discussion about this a while back. If so, that may just be the cat's pajamas for entry into the world of doubles.

Marrakai, I have no argument against using vintage DR's. I just know if you beat it up it loses a lot. At least that's my thought. But again, I do hunt with my best guns. They aren't closet queens. I don't think we are in disagreement.

About the posting time out. I had it happen just Sunday. Composed a brilliant rant on some subject or the other, pushed the "Continue" button, and got the dreaded message. I did as instructed: pushed the "Back" button. NOTHING! Pushed the "Refresh" button. NOTHING! All that wisdom went down the cyberspace vortex, never to be read and appreciated. By then the mood had passed. I shut down the computer and went about my business.

Ok, 2/3 of this is off-topic. Just pick up on my comments about the Heym. That was meant to be responsive to the original post.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Savuti_One_Shot
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: Marrakai]
      #71425 - 13/02/07 11:57 PM

Quote:

Savuti:
If I may, the message you get at time-out is this:

Quote:

The form you have submitted is no longer valid.
Please use your back button to return to the previous page.



If you hit the back button, you should find your post is still there. Highlight the text, copy, and then blow it away and return to the thread. Scroll down to the 'new' reply box, and paste.

Then it should upload OK.



Yeah, that's exactly what I did, Marakai, found bugger all.
But not to worry, LBD and I have hooked up on email. A'm fixin' ta ejikate 'im.

Cheers,
SOS

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new_guy
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Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: CptCurl]
      #71435 - 14/02/07 03:21 AM

Quote:

Is Heym making their plain-jane model in .450/.400 3"?



Yes, we are. The first 450/400s will be delivered in August of this year.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: bulldog563]
      #71437 - 14/02/07 04:04 AM


Bulldog

IMHO, a 500 recoils more than a 470.

I have a nuber of both in these calibres, all but one that kits and you know the 500's have gone off more than a 470.

R your cons
"No warranty. If something breaks, you will likely have to fix it out of your own pocket which can be $$$$."

If it's checked out properly, you shouldn't have a problems.
A spring may go but unlikely.

"If you don't reload may be a pain to get ammo that shoots to regulation." Same would apply to a new gun - after all, is te ammo they use available in the US at a reasonable price ?
And in shooting over 30 doubles, never had problem with getting all but 1 to shoot and the 1 was because of a loose rib.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: new_guy]
      #71438 - 14/02/07 04:10 AM

New Guy,

That's good news. I expect they will be well received. Thanks for the info.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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littlbigd
.224 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 12
Loc: Anchorage, AK
Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: new_guy]
      #71440 - 14/02/07 04:17 AM

The first step of education is knowing what you dont know.

After reading all of the great advice so far, help from SOS, excellent customer service from Heym etc here is my current thought process. Mind you I still have eight months to change my mind.

- I think I am going to just stick with a bolt action until I have more safari experience.

- I need to attend the Reno convention. I have been trying to go for the last three years but I keep missing it because of deployments. Eventually the dates will line up.

- I have a lot to learn about doubles. Especially pre war doubles. Every time I am back to the states on leave I am going to make an effort to find some quality dealers and handle some doubles for myself. I am also going to continue to troll here.

- I ordered "In the Salt". I love a good safari book recommendation.

- I'm definitely not getting a 577. That was never even a consideration. I think the recoil of a 500 NE is going to be plenty enough for me.

BTW - 20 replies in under 24 hours! Nitroexpress is one friendly board!

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: 15k budget. Which .5xx double would you get? [Re: littlbigd]
      #71449 - 14/02/07 05:46 AM

Quote:

The first step of education is knowing what you dont know.

After reading all of the great advice so far, help from SOS, excellent customer service from Heym etc here is my current thought process. Mind you I still have eight months to change my mind.

- I think I am going to just stick with a bolt action until I have more safari experience.

- I need to attend the Reno convention. I have been trying to go for the last three years but I keep missing it because of deployments. Eventually the dates will line up.

- I have a lot to learn about doubles. Especially pre war doubles. Every time I am back to the states on leave I am going to make an effort to find some quality dealers and handle some doubles for myself. I am also going to continue to troll here.

- I ordered "In the Salt". I love a good safari book recommendation.

- I'm definitely not getting a 577. That was never even a consideration. I think the recoil of a 500 NE is going to be plenty enough for me.

BTW - 20 replies in under 24 hours! Nitroexpress is one friendly board!



I think your being very smart in your conclusions, and you will really enjoy "in the salt" he really explains in great detail what to expect, and lays out 1 by 1 the proper gear for your 1st safari.

In the meantime contact George Caswell at Champlin Arms (580)237-7388 he can help guide you in the right direction as well.

I use David Yale & Ken Eversull for all my gunsmithing and condition evaluations at the sub atomic levels.

Davids is (970)562-4225

Kenny is (318)793-8728

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