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500grains
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Which theory of bullet performance do you believe?
      #71130 - 10/02/07 08:36 AM

Which theory of bullet performance do you subcribe to for large animals (elephant, buffalo, hippo, eland, giraffe):

1. Standard factory velocity with standard weight bullets. Tried and tested for 100 years.

Example: 300 grain .375 H&H at 2550 fps.

2. High velocity with lighter bullets. This is recommendd by GS Custom (www.gscustom.co.za) and others.

Example: 270 grain .375 H&H at 2700 fps.

3. Lower velocity with heavy bullets. This is recommended by Kevin Robertson ("The Perfect Shot") and is implmented in the new Norma PH line of ammo.

Example: 350 grain .375 H&H at 2200 fps.

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500Nitro
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500grains]
      #71132 - 10/02/07 10:05 AM



Both 1 and 3.

Not 2 as I have found from testing (on Buffalo)
that lighter bullets just do not penetrate as far.

Issue with 3 (350 grain .375 H&H at 2200 fps.
) is it gives / shortens the Point Blank Aim
alot - so long shots may be a problem but then again,
if going after longer shots, have 300 gr Projjies loaded.

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bulldog563
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #71133 - 10/02/07 10:09 AM

I my rifle has thwe twist to stabilize a heavier bullet then I like to go that route. Otherwise #1.

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Marrakai
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: bulldog563]
      #71138 - 10/02/07 11:45 AM

Very good discussion topic, 500grains!

IMO it depends a lot on whether the original cartridge was capable of killing by 'shock' in its 'standard' form.

I tend to apportion cartridges into two different performance categories: those that have a significant 'shock' component to their performance, and those that don't. In my experience the distinction would occur at around 2300 to 2400 fps muzzle velocity.

A significant part of the success of the .375 H&H at 2500 fps or more is probably attributable to shock. Loading a heavy bullet at only 2200 fps will take away the shock component, and move it into the second category.

If a cartridge turns up less than 2300 fps, it kills by wrecking vital organs and/or haemorrhage, so changing to a heavier bullet at lower velocity will not reduce performance. In fact, on big game where vital organ damage depends on good penetration, a heavier bullet will be a distinct improvement.

When hunting truly big game, the 'shock' component of an 'over 2400fps' bullet is probably worth almost nothing, so for pachyderms I'd say heavier bullet at lower velocity every time.

For plains game though, take away that 'shock' component, and expect them to run up to a hundred yards or more before dropping (if you miss the spine or shoulder-joints). In some cases this might result in a lost animal.

I should add that I prefer the heavy slow bullets for the vast majority of my hunting, because of the ever-present chance at a buffalo. ...but I am continually surprised at just how far a big boar can run after being spudded through the heart or both lungs with a 400 to 650 grain low-velocity bullet, when the same shot with a .243 would have been 'lights out' on the spot!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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NE450No2
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500grains]
      #71140 - 10/02/07 12:25 PM

Number one has worked good for me.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: NE450No2]
      #71145 - 10/02/07 12:48 PM

Good topic 500grains, and good reply Marrakai.

For large game, number 1 for me as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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hoppdoc
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: NitroX]
      #71155 - 10/02/07 02:22 PM

I agree with Marrakai as well.

Lighter weight high velocity bullets are great fun and can be shot long distances for kills but have variable penetration that cannot be reproduced in tougher animals.I feel penetration to the vitals and hydostatic failure(shock) is what ultimately puts animals down.I think "Hydrostatic Tissue Energy" delivered to the tissues with non CNS shots is BS- this is really just the nervous system of certain animals transiently collapsing reacting to bullet trauma with non CNS hits. Ultimately all animals must loose B/P with circulatory failure to stay down.

Adrenalized animals are completely different. If adrenalized tough critters are not hit mortally in the CNS you got real problems cause they can go up to 5 minutes with no B/P at all--plenty of time to kill you!!

No. 2 is unreliable for the big stuff.
I vote for No. 1.

I think standard velociies with heavy for caliber deeply penetrating bullets are the way to go. Momentum with adequate energy delivered in the rightplace kills 'em consistently every time.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (10/02/07 02:33 PM)

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ozhunter
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #71159 - 10/02/07 06:23 PM

For large Game I like my bullets above 286grns and traveling between 2100 to 2500fps M/V.
No.3
OZHUNTER

Edited by ozhunter (11/02/07 11:48 AM)

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allenday
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500grains]
      #71185 - 11/02/07 05:28 AM

I trust in theory #1........

AD

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EricD
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500grains]
      #71190 - 11/02/07 06:13 AM

#1. Although #3 is good for some situations too IMO.

The so-called shock effect of #2 has not been very apparent to me, despite having shot quite a lot of large game with a 300 Wby using 180 grain bullets in the past. Thus, I sold it and went back to using rule #1 and 3.

Erik

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Kalunga
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: EricD]
      #71192 - 11/02/07 06:56 AM

Having learned from bad experience, I use heavy bullets at moderate speed exclusively. I am a big fan of Kevin Robertson as well as of Elmer Keith, and I found a lot of sound advice in their writing. My formula is using a bullet with a sectional density of more than .300 at a speed of about 720 m/s (about 2300 to 2400 fps). This served me very well and I see no reason to try this modern stuff. Of course this is just my personal opinion, everybody should use what he wants to use.

Kalunga

"In my profession my needs are few - a dependable rifle, a cool nerve and a really good pair of boots !" J.S.

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AzGuy
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500grains]
      #71208 - 11/02/07 10:43 AM

Hard to go wrong with #1. That being said, I've killed a lot of elk with my 375 H&H load with 260 gr. noslers @ 2750fps. Ranges from 150 yds to 350 yds. I've never tried option #3. I understand the concept but trust the historical experience and my experience more. I think you have them rated in the correct order. The best combo seems to a bullet with a SD> .300 and BC>.300 and velocities appropriate to calibler.

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bonanza
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: AzGuy]
      #71218 - 11/02/07 01:16 PM

I've killed three deer before I was 16 and nothing since. Back then, high velocity was all the rage, but I have to say it was for not as the bullets disintegraged upon contact. I'd go for number 3 if not for the fact it drives pressure though the roof. So, I'll stick with number 1. Albeit, I have heard that the 458 Lott is devisating on lion.

--------------------


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Bonde
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: bonanza]
      #71286 - 12/02/07 06:30 AM

I see that Marrakai has given a very good answer. I'll join in and agree to most of it.

My view:

Theory 1 (2 and 3) for lesser game and calibers under .375

Theory 3 for .375+ and BIG game.. I've yet to hear of an elephant og buffalo killed by "shock"..

--------------------
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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500grains]
      #71304 - 12/02/07 10:21 AM

Another vote for #1.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #71315 - 12/02/07 02:10 PM

Not surprising which two options that the Big Bore Double Rifle owning NitroExpress.com members would choose.

Try a Weatherby forum and see if there is a different result?

***


Isn't part of the theory also that the twist rate has a lot to do with penetration???

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Grizzly
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: NitroX]
      #71323 - 12/02/07 07:38 PM

Number 1, but number 3 has its appeal.

The biggest issue I run into with heavier bullets, at least in a double rifle, is that the heavier weight in a copper bullet makes the bullet longer and at a point not suitable for standard twist rates.

In a bolt rifle, it is difficult enough to try to get a heavier bullet to work because of its length.

I am still playing with the heavies in trying to get working loads. It is tough to push them faster in standard twist barrels. So, I am trying to fine the sine wave sweet spot for lower velocities.

I agree with Kevin's theory generally, but for large game you need a minimum velocity range to be effective. 2100 to 2400 fps seems to be the consensus for 400 to 500 grain bullets.

Back it down too much, and you have nothing more than a +P 45-70.

Interesting is that with the driving bands in GS and Northfork bullets, you can get more velocity with standard loads. But the heavier bullets are an issue with a 1:20 twist.

The only option I can see is to find a metal heavier than copper which will reduce the length of the bullet. I believe tungsten may be an option in the future (Speer used to carry them and Federal just came out with their MRX tungsten cores).

The heavy copper bullets are great if you don't mind changing barrels. Kind of tough to do with a double rifle or classic bolt rifle.

It is going to be interesting to see how Norma's new PH line fares. Supposidely, the increased weight on some of their ammo (e.g., 416 Rigby going from 410 to 450 grains) will work in standard twist rifles. I do know PH's in SA shooting 416 Rigbys have been using 430 grain Rhino bullets in their older rifles, and rave about the results.

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Marrakai
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: Grizzly]
      #71327 - 12/02/07 10:36 PM

Griz:
Regarding the tungsten-core bullets being 'heavier-for-calibre' while still remaining the correct length for the barrel's twist rate:

At the same chamber-pressure, they will be slower, so will need a faster twist rate anyway to achieve the same rpm in flight for stabilization.

Law of diminishing returns. Option No.1 is looking better all the time!

Remember that the cartridge developers a century ago went through all this prior to release, especially the Brit NE designers, and they already chose the heaviest practical bullet at the desired velocity, for each cartridge. Sure, we have a few new bullet materials that weren't available then, so it's worth revisiting for sure, but as others have pointed out, a heavier bullet at lower velocity is probably already available in another cartridge's factory load!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500grains
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: NitroX]
      #71347 - 13/02/07 04:52 AM

Quote:




Isn't part of the theory also that the twist rate has a lot to do with penetration???



A long bullet, such as an overweight-for-caliber bullet, or a brass solid of standard weight, will tend to have more yaw (tipping) than a standard lead core bullet. This can cause the bullet to tumble early and not penetrate deeply. This effect has been seen with long monolithic bullets including brass solids of standard weight and Barnes X of standard weight. Using a faster than normal twist counteracts this tendency. The yaw or tipping of extra-long bullets which tends to cause them to tumble early is exaggerated when the bullet strikes the animal at an angle (or it it strikes the animal straight on but hits a bone within the animal that is angled).

If the bullet is overweight, then increased sectional density will tend to have somewhat of a counterbalancing effect. If the overweight bullet is a soft nose, then expansion of the bullet will quickly reduce its length and unless tumbling occurs very early then it may not happen at all. If the bullet is pointed, then the likelihood of tumbling is increased.

One way to counter the tendency of a long bullet to yaw excessively and tumble is to use a barrel with a faster than standard twist. Art Alphin of A-Square implemented faster than normal twists in all of his DG calibers in order to increase penetration depth.

Another way to deal with the tipping issue is to use a monolithic bullet that is about 10% lighter than standard for the caliber (such as 270 grains in the 375 H&H). That brings the bullet length back to normal for a standard twist barrel. Since the bullet is lighter, a higher than standard velocity can be achieved as well.

Another issue to keep in mind is that as velocity increases, excessive yaw becomes exaggerated. It's a bit like having an unbalanced tire. At 25 miles per hour it is not noticeable, but at 70 miles per hour it vibrates badly. Thus, appropriate twist rate for bullet length becomes even more important with higher velocity calibers.

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jorge
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: 500grains]
      #71358 - 13/02/07 06:47 AM

None of them. I prefer higher velocity with heavy bullets as in the 45s for example, I prefer a 500gr projectile of good construction (like a Swift, North Fork, etc.)at 2500 fps than the same projectile at 2100. jorge

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Ndumo
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: jorge]
      #71359 - 13/02/07 07:50 AM

I prefer 3, will settle for 1. I shoot 550 gr bullets @ close to 2300 ft/ sec in my 450 Rigby rimless only becase no good commercial 600gr is available in Southern Africa...

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butchloc
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: Ndumo]
      #71447 - 14/02/07 05:32 AM

depends on the game - big game #1 BUT for the #%$&@*#& neighbors crat #2 preferably in volume

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hoppdoc
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: NitroX]
      #71500 - 14/02/07 10:22 PM

A Weatherby forum would tout the virtues of velocity/lighter bullet weight for calibers on bigger game with the Barnes X, etc. This approach tries to equal the tissue effect of larger bore penetration/lethality by the X feature of the bullets at a higher velocity. Most twitchy combo-long for caliber bullets at high velocities and high twist rates.Pressures are a problem on the ragged edge as well as performance.

Verdict-Not near as predictable results when velocity is used to compensate for sectional density.It also does poorly when you have to shoot lighter solids at big tough animals.

No.1 with a big bore seems most optimal/efficient if lethal penetration is obtained.More velocity is morebetter but does it kill any quicker with non expanding solids when adequate penetration has been accomplished at a lower velocity? Would it add more shot selection/options for killing shots?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (14/02/07 10:37 PM)

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Gerard
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #71504 - 14/02/07 11:50 PM

----------------------------------------
2. High velocity with lighter bullets. This is recommendd by GS Custom (www.gscustom.co.za) and others.
----------------------------------------
The above must be qualified with the addition of the fact that these lighter and faster bullets be of monometallic construction. Going lighter and faster with lead core bullets would be courting disaster.

The most compelling reason why we have the traditional bullet weights for large caliber rifles, is because of the failures that start happening when a lead core bullet is pushed beyond 2300/2400fps. With the advance in technology that makes precision turned solid bullets possible, that reason no longer exists.

It is accepted fact that, within reasonable parameters, a solid of less weight and higher speed will go straighter and deeper in an animal, providing that neither bullet breaks or bends. It is also accepted fact that, the longer a bullet is, the more prone it becomes to breaking or bending. I say reasonable parameters because someone will try to point out that a 10 grain bullet at a gazillion fps will penetrate less than a 1000 grain bullet at 500fps.

After manufacturing flat nosed solids for large calibers and specifically for dangerous game, for the last ten years, I fear no contradiction when I state: FN mono solids will do a more reliable job on large animals than lead core round nosed solids will, despite the fact that they are lighter and faster than the "traditional" weights.

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500grains
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Re: Which theory of bullet performance do you believe? [Re: Gerard]
      #71508 - 15/02/07 02:25 AM

Gerard,

How would you compare performance of GS Custom FN copper solids in traditional weights at traditional velocity compared to:

a. Lead core fmj bullets of traditional weight at traditional velocity?

b. GS Custom FN solids about 10% lighter than traditional weight at higher than traditional velocity?

___________

For reference: www.gscustom.co.za

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