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hoppdoc
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PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle?
      #69402 - 13/01/07 06:01 AM

If one were going on a PG/DG safari with Buff and tuskless Ele on the menu in varied terrain what would be your choice as your primary rifle?? The usual pat answer would be 375H&H or 416 bolt. Great, but what about that Ele popping out of the jesse suddenly? Is there a better choice?

Why not qd scoped 450/400 Double for game inside 200 yds?
How about a qd scoped 9.3 Double?
How about a scoped 416 Weatherby?
Maybe even a scoped 458 Lott?
Is there a better choice out there?

Whats the best choice considering the animals encountered?Whats the primary gun that can cover the most problems encountered?

THANKS FOR ANY AND ALL OPINIONS!!

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Marrakai
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #69421 - 13/01/07 11:34 AM

Pat answer, .375 or .416 (I would prefer the latter, or a .400 double), but you haven't mentioned the two most critical components:

1 Premium Bullets

2 Shooter Skill

Make sure these two factors are up to scratch, and that "Ele popping out of the jesse suddenly" will be dealt with, regardless of rifle configuration or a few thou of bullet diameter.

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Marrakai
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hoppdoc
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: Marrakai]
      #69422 - 13/01/07 11:56 AM

I would assume one would be loaded with premium solids in such terrain.To be loaded with softs and suddenly encountrer an Ele might invite real problems.

Assuming the shooter is up to snuff, the Double man shooting a soft/solid could always use the solid first to use as the inital shot.

If the 450/400 Double could be shot effectively/accuately at distance it may be the most advantageous firearm available. Is this a valid assumption or are 450/400 distance limited past 100 yds with a scope for patterned shots?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #69423 - 13/01/07 12:15 PM

If you were hunting buffalo, you could well be loaded with softs, not solids, especially as the ele "pops out of the jesse suddenly".

Perhaps why most PHs seem to have bullet belts filled with FMJs in DG country.

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bulldog563
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: NitroX]
      #69430 - 13/01/07 12:59 PM

IMO the most important thing would be to use a rifle that you are very familiar with, fits well, is reliable and of the appropriate caliber (for me that would be 375+). If ti were me and it was going to be a 1 gun trip, I would bring a 375/416 bolt gun of some ilk or a scoped (QD) Double in the same range of bullet diameter. If more then one gun, a 375/416 bolt and a large bore DR.

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hoppdoc
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: bulldog563]
      #69447 - 14/01/07 04:50 AM

It would seem that the choosing of a 450/400 Double or other DR in kind for the primary rifle would depend on the ability of the Double to hit out to 200 yds with a scope off a shooting stick or other assitance.

I feel the advantages of a Double to hit at a distance with a rapid 2nd shot without changing ones grip is considerable vs a big bolt.The option to choose solid or soft is attractive as well as the QD scope feature.

Is a 450/400 or similar DR accurate at 200 yds? I don't have one so I don't know.If not then the most sensible alternative would seem to be whatever big bolt the hunter shoots well.

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JPK
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #69463 - 14/01/07 01:39 PM

I've taken a 375H&H and a 458 DR and been happy. I would love a 375Flanged Mag DR as a second rifle but the bolt works great.

I don't agree with Marraki about the bore and stopping elephants. But if you are not hunting elephant or buff you will be carrying your light rifle any way. If the country is relatively open I keep a soft up the spout of my 375 and a soft on top in the magazine. If the country is thick and there are lots of elephants then the soft up the spout and all solids in the magazine.

.458" solids work great on buffalo, but you should follow your PH's recomendation. The PH with whom I've hunted buffalo prefers all solids. I've killed four buff, all with solids and they work fine. I wanted to try a 500gr Woodleigh soft on a buff this year but the buff we wanted we found while on elephant tracks and the softs were in the truck.

Your DR should be up to 200 yard shooting I think. I don't shoot that far with mine, but that doesn't mean it isn't up to the task. If it will shoot well with a scope it should be fine. I killed a klipspringer at 75yds with my rifle this year. A klipspringer is a tiny antelope. I'll try to post a photo tomorrow.

JPK


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500grains
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: Marrakai]
      #69464 - 14/01/07 02:07 PM

Quote:

Pat answer, .375 or .416 (I would prefer the latter, or a .400 double), but you haven't mentioned the two most critical components:

1 Premium Bullets

2 Shooter Skill

Make sure these two factors are up to scratch, and that "Ele popping out of the jesse suddenly" will be dealt with, regardless of rifle configuration or a few thou of bullet diameter.




I must disagree. Unless you have shot a few hundred elephant, the chances are good that you will miss the brain on an ele popping out of the jesse suddenly, and with a .375 the elephant will not flinch or turn. I have seen it. And so have many others.


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hoppdoc
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #69465 - 14/01/07 03:07 PM

I guess I am trying to validate a qd scoped 450/400 as a primo setup for a mixed bag DG hunt vs the usual 375/416 bolt choices. Sounds appealing anyway.I am sure someone has done this previously.Was it 450No2? Is there a devils advocate out there to shine light on any problems?

A scoped 500/416(a close 416 bolt equivilent) would be fun if accurate as well but who wants to carry the extra weight all day?

The 375's record of problems with Ele encounters is indeed concerning.In DG country you gotta believe in your PH for firepower in addition to your rifle.

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Edited by hoppdoc (14/01/07 03:09 PM)


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JPK
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #69469 - 14/01/07 05:03 PM

Hoppdoc,

If you are going to do this once and the budget is tight, than any rifle you already own that's 375 or bigger will get you through, imo. Just make sure the rifle is reliable and likewise with your ammo.

If you think you're going to be doing it more than once and/or the budgets not tight and you are looking for an ideal battery then things change.

In my opinion, the 450/400 isn't a great choice for an elephant rifle. No doubt that it will kill the world's biggest elephant. But what has become apparent to me is that you should be carrying a stopping rifle if you are elephant hunting, especially if you are hunting cows. The 450/400 isn't a stopping rifle.

Also, the 450/400 is a less than ideal PG cartridge. IMO, if you could get the weight down to 9 1/2lbs with scope great, but that's on the light side for what a 450/400's weighs without a scope. I sure don't mind carry 10 1/2lbs of stopping rifle when elephant and buffalo hunting but no thanks for chasing impala.

Again imo, you should bring two rifles, and both should be DG legal, in case your primary DG rifle goes tits up or whatever. A mixed bag hunt with DG and PG is really a DG hunt with other stuff shot too - but the focus is on and the money is spent on the DG. So bring a big bore and a medium. Big bores start at .458" and go up. What 500 Grains said is true. And even PH's miss brain shots.

BTW, I nearly had to shoot a cow that came boiling out of the bush - a different one than the one in the serries of photos that I posted which I did shoot. We were on a long scouting hike looking for a trophy bull or his tracks beyond the last road in an area of Chewore in Zim. We'd gotten strung out a bit comming down a hil and then crossing a steep sided dry creek. The PH was leading, with one tracker about five yards behind him and then me, maybe ten yards behind the tracker and then the gamescout right behind me. The PH followed a game trail parrallel to the dry creek bed and went around a corner where a thicket of trees was growing. We heard an elephant trumpet and then the PH came hauling arse back around the bend with a cow on his tail. The tracker flew past me and I raised my rifle ready to shoot the cow, which was maybe ten yards behind the PH and gaining. The gamescout retreated five yards or so and cycled a round into the chamber of his AK47. Just as I was going to flick the safety off the cow pulled up. The PH pulled up next to me. I think it was the loud cycling of the AK action which caught the cows attention, but who knows.

JPK


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hoppdoc
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: JPK]
      #69472 - 14/01/07 07:39 PM

Great logic!!Thanks for your response!

If you are on a PG/DG hunt you must deal with the worst case possibility--you must have a stopping rifle for Ele encounters!! The concept of the optimal all purpose primary rifle may not cut it. You need to carry a sure nuff Ele stopper with a longer range rifle carried for other game.

Hats off to the PH!! His life on the line and the Ele charging/gaining--If he doesn't have a stutter saying "That 'LLLLLLephant got close" now he is certainly entitled to one.

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (14/01/07 07:41 PM)


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500grains
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #69500 - 15/01/07 12:19 PM

I would take one rifle for the PG and another for the DG. My PG rifle would likely be a Mauser in 9.3 or 375. That would take care of shots out to 300 yars without difficulty. My DG rifle would be a heavy double.

NE450No.2 has a 450-400 double with QD mounts and he says he is quite pleased with it.


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ozhunter
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: 500grains]
      #69523 - 15/01/07 09:26 PM

If you are hunting for Dangerous game plus plains game {which is often the standard DG hunt} with a single rifle I would recomend the 404JEFF, 416 TAYLOR or 416 REM.
OZHUNTER


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #69529 - 16/01/07 12:30 AM

Quote:

I guess I am trying to validate a qd scoped 450/400 as a primo setup for a mixed bag DG hunt vs the usual 375/416 bolt choices. Sounds appealing anyway.I am sure someone has done this previously.Was it 450No2? Is there a devils advocate out there to shine light on any problems?





If you are looking for someone to tell you, yes you have to do it, I will.

A scoped .450/400 would fit the bill quite well. Most plains game is shot under 150 metres, and a 400 gr .400 will do it very well. And a good starting calibre for a double for dangerous big game hunting as well.

.450NENo2 is a great advocate of the 9.3x74R, the .450/.400 and the .450 No 2 Nitro Express doubles.

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John aka NitroX

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NE450No2
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: NitroX]
      #70408 - 29/01/07 01:12 PM

hoppdoc

Here is my story.

First let me sat that I much prefer a double rifle when hunting DG and PG in Zimbabwe. I have done 3 Safaris there, a 21 day a 30 day and a 35 day.

On the first 2 trips I took a scoped Chapuis double in 9,3x74R and a British 450 No2.

On the first trip I used the 9,3 on all plains game, and the 450 No2 on 3 elephants and a buff, I did not connect on lion or leopard. I knew when I was after elephant or buff and carried the big gun.

WQe did bump into elephants a few times when PG hunting with the 9,3. As it was a double I would silently load 2 solids until we were clear of the elephants.

On my second trip I did shoot a giraffe with the 450 No2, at 188 yards, on purpose, but also shot an eland and a wildebeest with the No2 "on accident" as I bumped into them when hunting buff.

I also shot a giraffe, my big buff and a cow elephant "on purpose" with the 9,3. The elephant was shot with iron sights.


On my third trip I took my wife and more guns, the first two mentioned as well as my recently scoped 450/400 3 1/4" British double.

Since this was my first trip with the 400 I used it on a buff, bull elephant, warthog and lion.
The warthog and the lion were shot with the scope, the others ironsights.
I shot one elephant with the 450 and the rest of the plainsgame with the 9,3 except for a bush buck and honey badger shot with the Blaser R 93.

My wife shot her buff with the scoped 400, plaiuns game with the Blaser 308 and the 30-06 bbl of hert drilling.

Here is what I think, baised on these 3 Safaris.

I have found the 9,3x74R Scoped double to be the perfect PG rifle that can also take DG if necessary.

I would not hesitate to use it on elephant or cape buff again.
I have shot my biggest buff with it at about 60 yards at last light with the scope and the frticle illuminated. I might not have taken the shot without the scope as there were several other buff right behind him, and the light was bad, shooting a black buff in a black hole.

An iron sighted big bore double is a great DG rifle, only if you can shoot iron sights.

My 450 No2 is my favorite rifle, however in the real world most of us can shoot and hit game better in some circumstances with a scope, even if our iron sight technique is good.

Enter the scoped 450/400.
This just might be the best allround rifle for DG for present day Safari hunters.

With a scoped 450/400 [in QD mounts, mine are claw], you have all the advantages of an iron sighted double rifle, and all the advantages of a scoped 400 cal rifle.
The best of both worlds.

A pair of scoped doubles a 9,3x74R and a 450/400 are a perfect combo for hunting DG and PG in Africa IMHO.

I shot my scoped 450/400 just today. The scope did not hurt the regulation at all and it did not effect the fine handling of the double in any way.

I really like it.

No doubt the 450 No2 is a little bigger hammer, but the 400 is hammer enough.

Any other questions please ask.


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hoppdoc
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: NE450No2]
      #70432 - 29/01/07 08:05 PM

I am in the process of booking a Buff hunt in 2008 with Vaughan Fulton in the Caprivi strip.

Carrying a qd scoped 450/400 vs the usual scoped 416 bolt along with my 500 Double sounds like fun for Buff/PG as well as any incidental Ele encounter. A scoped Double may come in handy!

Heck, I have to figure out a reason to justify buying a 450/400 Double somehow!!

Edited by hoppdoc (29/01/07 08:07 PM)


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ozhunter
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #70434 - 29/01/07 08:32 PM

hoppdoc,
It sounds like you enjoy the idea of hunting with a double so in my opinion a 450/400 would be nice.
I have gone down that track also as I prefer to travel and hunt light and with a double also. I use to hunt with a 9.3 and 470NE which are great, but to travel and hunt with two rifles was not for me so I have on order a searcy 400J with a scope that I can attach when needed.
I know the 470 is a better caliber for elephant but I think the fast double shots of the 400 will be suitable also.
Having a 500 along also will be great for Ele.
ozhunter


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allenday
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #70801 - 05/02/07 04:25 AM

If I were headed out the door tomorrow for a safari that was to include tuskless elephant and buffalo as primary animals, plus plainsgame thrown in the mix, and I could take only one rifle, I'd go with my 416 Rem. Mag. loaded with 370 gr. North Fork solids and softs @ 2470 fps.

My 375 H&H would be my second choice..........

AD


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NE450No2
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #70806 - 05/02/07 05:21 AM

Allen
I am suprised you say you would only take one rifle as you are one of the few people I know that has had a rifle fail and had to use your second rifle to finish the hunt.

I will admit I am the "belt and suspenders" type when it comes to essential equipment, especially when traveling so far.


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allenday
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: NE450No2]
      #70854 - 06/02/07 02:43 AM

NE450No2, there's a big difference in reliability and quality between the rifle I had trouble with before, and my current 416 & 375 rifles. The rifles I'm using now are both safari veterans, and have long-since proven to be totally reliable in every way.

I'm not saying that I'd never take two rifles again, because I would, and I'm gearing up right now to do so. But there are times when taking just one rifle makes a lot more sense, and that's the way I do it most of the time these days, when I can. I very much prefer to take just one gun, actually............

AD


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NE450No2
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: allenday]
      #70905 - 06/02/07 06:49 PM

Allen
As you know even the best rifle in the world can be broken while in transit or due to a mishap on the hunt.

I think anyone, most especially someone like you or me that is a quality equipment, tested,proven equipment freek would much rather hunt with his own rifle.
On the trips I have been on, if my only rifle had broken, there was not a spare rifle to be found for me to borrow.

As much as it is convienent to travel with only one rifle to Africa I know I could NEVER do it.

Even the THOUGHT of it scares me.


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AzGuy
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #71080 - 09/02/07 01:08 PM

Primary rifle would be DR in 470 NE and the secondary/backup rifle would be a bolt action and scoped 375 H&H w/QR mounts. Those of you with actual experience, do you see any real problems with these choices?

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allenday
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Re: PG/DG Safari --Which primary rifle? [Re: AzGuy]
      #71109 - 10/02/07 02:28 AM

That would be a very tough combination to beat.

The only possible problems could be ammunition-related (bullet construction), plus feeding (in the case of your 375 H&H bolt-gun), and just possibly some wear-related issues with your double, especially if it's an older rifle.

AD


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