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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Hauptjäger
.275 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 94
Loc: Hilo, Hawaii
Control round feed or not?
      #6927 - 14/01/04 01:08 PM

To control round feed or not to control round feed that is the question…

I am still looking into to building a 9.3x64 (unless someone can suggest a better caliber), and I see that some writers like the Control round feed and other like Woods, and Taylor love it but American writers, like Boudintion (Sp) seem to support the “advantages” of push feed? Does “accuracy” out way total control of the shell from the mag. to the chamber? What advice can you give?


--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #6928 - 14/01/04 02:35 PM

In my opinion the controlled feed action is better than push feed.
The biggest benefit with controlled feed is that it is almost impossible to do a double feed.
By double feed I mean trying to chamber a cartridge up the arse of a cartridge already in the chamber, and creating a jammmed action.

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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #6929 - 14/01/04 03:27 PM

I think the importance of one over another is not as much a concern in a rifle not used for dangerous game.

For myself the controlled feed on a DG rifle is a requirement not a option. I own and love my push feeds some of my favorite rifles are built on REM actions (my personal favorite rifle is a REM 40X action I had built in .308) but for me a push feed in any caliber from .375H&H and above is a deal breaker, I wont look twice at the rifle for any price.
It may very well never be a issue for most but be assured when things do go bad its yet one more weak link in the chain in a already deteriorating situation and when the chips are down you need all on your side you can muster IMO.

James F. Nixon III

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: NONE]
      #6970 - 15/01/04 09:47 AM

of the three high-powers I have, the CRF is my favorite, and I won't buy another repeater that isn't CRF... well, ok, maybe one...

in anything outside of a varmint rifle (or benchrest) I see a lot of benefits to CRF, it just WORKS.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Ndumo
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Reged: 21/12/03
Posts: 230
Loc: Namibia
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #6995 - 16/01/04 02:25 AM

I agree that a controlled round feed action is superior in a caliber suitable for dangerous game. I already own a 9.3x64 built on an old DWM Mauser 98 action, and would not trade it for a buffalo bull. If you want, I can e-mail you more details on my loads and rifle.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Ndumo]
      #6996 - 16/01/04 04:57 AM

we have a mauser 98 in 30-06 (grandpa built it), and I'm (trying to) pick up another in 35-whelen. while I have thought of getting a second 30-06, I want the pullet weights of the 35, and the rifles are so similar its quite frightening... they will be virtually interchangeable at the shoulder...

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #6997 - 16/01/04 05:08 AM

In reply to:

To control round feed or not to control round feed that is the question…

I am still looking into to building a 9.3x64 (unless someone can suggest a better caliber), and I see that some writers like the Control round feed and other like Woods, and Taylor love it but American writers, like Boudintion (Sp) seem to support the “advantages” of push feed? Does “accuracy” out way total control of the shell from the mag. to the chamber? What advice can you give?





Hauptjager, since you are going to build the rifle,instead of already haveing it, I see no advantage to building it in a push feed action. There is "NO" advantage to a push feed action over a CRF, for any purpose! They will do, for hunting things like deer, or paper punching, if you don't have anything else.

The 9.3X64 is legal for dangerous game in most African countries, at least for the cats, and the big five in some others! I would pick up one of the good Mauser actions, either a military one in good shape, or one of the comercial clones, Barrel it with a medium weight barrel, fit Iron sights, and quick detach rings and bases for a low (1.5-5 power scope) mounting of the scope. top it off with a classic shaped stock, and you have a real rifle. With proper bullets, and loads, it will take on just about anything you want to hunt with it!

The reason Boddington likes pushfeed actions is he is left handed, and for many years the only left handed rifles he could find were push feed, so he had little choice.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Hauptjäger
.275 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 94
Loc: Hilo, Hawaii
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Ndumo]
      #7019 - 16/01/04 03:12 PM

I would be forever grateful for any and all info you would give. I have been told that there is an issue about the bolt face having to be modified for a 9.3x64 to work. Is this true or just bull… to sell me something other than an action that I can build on? Also do you load all of your own ammo or can you find RWS where you are?

--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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Hauptjäger
.275 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 94
Loc: Hilo, Hawaii
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7022 - 16/01/04 03:29 PM

DUGABOY1
Man that is just about the best “how to” I have found yet. Thanks! Since I’m picking you brain, any recommendation on action builders. (CZ Win…) What length of barrel would give optimal performance? I’m a big guy 6’3” but I personally prefer to shut a short “quick” rifle. My 7mm-08 has only a 17.5 inch barrel and its dead ringer out to about 150 yards. Would 20 to 22 inches be about right? And lastly I am a big fan of the thumb hole stock, is this a no no in BG Riffles? To date I have had not problems with the one I have. Your thoughts please.


--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #7034 - 17/01/04 04:57 AM

nothing beats an original mauser, and some were actually chambered in 9.3x?? in the first place. after that, the Model 70 is likely the best immitation. the CZ is cheaper, but I've heard/seen some issues with them, the Ruger is generally a cheaper Winchester, so skip it.

I would give yourself at least a 22" barrel, probably 24... in a rifle of that caliber, I would skip the thumb-hole, but mostly just on preference.

the barrel length COULD be addressed by using very fast-burning powders, but even at that, you would have pressure issues and likely some iffy pressure spikes. whatever you do, keep us updated!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #7038 - 17/01/04 06:55 AM

In reply to:

DUGABOY1
Man that is just about the best “how to” I have found yet. Thanks! Since I’m picking you brain, any recommendation on action builders. (CZ Win…) What length of barrel would give optimal performance? I’m a big guy 6’3” but I personally prefer to shut a short “quick” rifle. My 7mm-08 has only a 17.5 inch barrel and its dead ringer out to about 150 yards. Would 20 to 22 inches be about right? And lastly I am a big fan of the thumb hole stock, is this a no no in BG Riffles? To date I have had not problems with the one I have. Your thoughts please.



First, the choice of a thumb hole stock is a personal one, and not to my likeing on a DGR, but as I say that's a personal thing. I have a Harry Lawson T/H stocked 243 win that I like very much, and I have seen several large bore rifles in the field with those stocks as well, so what ever floats your bass boat!

I think you can get along with a 22" barrel, but I would go 24". I certainly wouldn't go less that 22".

Your question in the other post about bolt mods, is correct, but is not a big job. The standard Mauser is made for the 30-06 rim size, as that is the size of the 8x57 MM,(.473"), but the 9.3X64 has a rim diameter of .492", .019" larger. However the Magnum bolt face is too large, at .532" the mod on the standard bolt face is a "no brainer" for a gunsmith. The biggist problem you will incounter is, the fact that the 9.3x64 is a rebated rim cartridge,meaning the head is larger(.504) than the rim, and the feeding will have to be tweeked a bit, so it will feed properly.

All in all, the project is not without some work, but worth the effort, IMO, if done properly,but that is also a personal opinion!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #7096 - 19/01/04 01:04 PM

...www.african-hunter.com has some great articles on the advantages of a crf action compared to a push-feed action in terms of hunting dg...

...many of the newer crf actions will also permit a cartridge to be chambered top-side from the receiver in an emergency situation...

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Hauptjäger
.275 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 94
Loc: Hilo, Hawaii
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #7097 - 19/01/04 03:00 PM

great artical! thanks


--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7212 - 21/01/04 01:35 PM

dasMafia,

The Ruger doesn't take any back seat to the newer Winchesters! The new WinJAMMERS, I should say. I tried two of the Safari Classics, one in 375, and one in 416Rem. My safari partner bought one in 416 at the same time I bought mine. ALL three guns jammed almost every time we tried to chamber a round from a full magazine. My 375 was sent back to Worstchester for f.ctory (you supply the "u") repair and came back as bad as when sent.
I like and own four of the old 70", but wouldn't have a new "classic" 70 if one were given to me!
I have a Ruger in 338 and in 416Rigby (RSM) and like them both. I did change that abomonitation that they call a "trigger" to a timney, however.



--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: luv2safari]
      #7248 - 22/01/04 07:13 AM

the Rugers I've used were in smaller calibers and were not nearly as smooth to feed as the Model 70... now, that being said, they did work just fine.

the Rugers don't have a fixed ejector, it actually comes forward slightly as the bolt is worked back, which is one too many moving parts for me, and can (allegedly and theoreticaly) cause ejection problems.

the easy solution is a Mauser... we're getting VERY VERY comfortable with that course of action around here!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
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Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7322 - 24/01/04 02:14 AM

Those sloppy bolt Mausers are hard to beat. The only objection I have at all to them is they are hard to pay for in a good one. .all that machining makes them a bit pricey. When you design something right the first time, 100+ years of tinkering doesn't change it much!

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: luv2safari]
      #7601 - 28/01/04 02:34 PM

I will not own a pushfeed rifle, but to each his own...does not bother me one bit what someone else uses...

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buckeyeshooter
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Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 54
Loc: ohio, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #9301 - 18/02/04 05:24 AM

I keep hearing the great bias for controlled round feed. Frankly, I can not see the advantage to it unless you are reloading when knocked to the ground or rolling or some other weird position you should not be in. I have rifles in both controlled feed and push feed and have never had a problem with either of them, as far a feeding goes. Then again, I load my own ammo and check for feed and function before heading out in the blue. For me, the position of the saftey and ability to get the gun ready to fire is of much more importance. Meaning-- I would rather have my push feed Ruger .458 with tang safety in a DG situation than my Winchester .470 Capstick or My Remington 700 in .375 H + H. The controlled feeding of the Winchester might be better if I get nailed, but I believe the ability to quickly and accurately place my first shot with the rifle that works best for me is of much greater usefullness. I find the saftey on the new Rugers, Model 70 and Remingtom 700's difficult to use quickly as second nature.

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: buckeyeshooter]
      #9302 - 18/02/04 05:39 AM

the point of CRF is not just in "upside-down" feeding, but also in the fact that the bolt will feed in one round and just one round, and only feeds the round that is grasped... in a push feed (I've done this with a 700) an imperfect of truncated stroke can lead to a double-feed (bad news), and the general notion of the size of a M700 extractor is just bad comedy... if that round is over-hot or just doesn't go off as intended, the last thing I want is a flimsy pot-metal extractor the size of a paper-clip trying to remove the problem round...

... I'm with Ray, I had a push-feed remington jam up on me deer hunting... that was the last straw. was it user error? sure, but that error can't happen with a Mauser.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9303 - 18/02/04 05:44 AM

oh, and as for cost on a Mauser...

1918 Oberndorf Mauser 98
sporter stock
35 Whelen
iron sights
50 rounds ammo (premium reloads)
25 empties

$500 shipped. not too shabby.

add $60 safety
add $50 rings
add $251 scope
=quite possibly the perfect plainsgame rifle.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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buckeyeshooter
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Reged: 04/02/04
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Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9889 - 23/02/04 09:55 AM

Thanks for your input. However, I have never seen a failure to feed from a rifle push feed or controlled feed. I understand floks say it happens, but I have never witnessed it in 40+ years of hunting and shooting. In my experience-- this is one of those things folks argue about around the fire. I won't lose any sleep or degrade anyone for a push feed rifle. It's much more important that they place the first shot well with a sufficient round in my opinion.

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ChuckWagon
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Reged: 09/02/04
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Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: buckeyeshooter]
      #9892 - 23/02/04 10:54 AM

I could certainly not agree with that view. I have had push feed failure. This in my case occured when the guide would not allow a round to be chambered in advance only when ready to shoot. This practice is common in many places now. I can not blame them when I see so many hunters going out that act like they know it all and have never shot any thing but paper. I find it very easy to miss feed when I am trying to watch a animal and chamber a round in a push feed.

--------------------
Life is more like a jar of Jalapeno's than a box of chocolates. What you do today might burn your butt tomorrow !

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9904 - 23/02/04 04:23 PM

the point of CRF is not just in "upside-down" feeding

When it comes to "upside down feeding" the Weatherby rifle in the 378 based calibres will leave any CRF action for dead....at least any CRF that uses staggered feed.

Rem 700s etc will feed upside down but like the CRF staggered feed they can never match an in line feed rifle...if all else is equal.

Remington's African Big Game Rifle with the in line feed would beat any staggered feed for reliability.

Mike

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: Mike375]
      #9907 - 23/02/04 04:50 PM

Buckeye shooter,
In 40 years of hunting and shooting you should have seen plenty of push feeds fail, maybe you spent too much time discussing it around the campfire when you should have been hunting!! ...

I see it every year in Africa...It mostly happens when hunter are running and try to feed a cartridge into the chamber for the most part...

I would not hunt dangerous game with a pushfeed....

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Control round feed or not? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9941 - 24/02/04 03:45 AM

buckeye, you've been hunting longer than I've been alive... and I've had push-feed failure.

and mike... just how much magazine capacity do you sacrifice with the inline feed???

...and the rest of the weatherby problems are too much to deal with anyway. makes it a moot issue to me.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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