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sakmyk
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Guns sold under other maker's name
      #69165 - 09/01/07 08:10 PM

I'm starting another thread here. You may quess that this also relates to the 16-bore Rodda DR I've been asking questions about, but I'll take a fresh start on this topic, as it may be interesting also to those who do not bother to read the thread on the 16-bore any more.

It was a bit tricky for a non-native speaker to phrase the Subject, but what I mean with it is that I'm interested in the practise among the English gunmakers of the 1800s to have their guns made by manufacturers other than themselves.

It also seems hard to figure out good search terms on this issue. Thus the new thread.

Regarding RB Rodda, for example, I've found some sporadic information that at least some of their guns were actually made by Webley & Scott or Gogswell & Harrison.

The gist of my question is that I am trying to confirm or disprove a theory that this 16-bore Rodda that I have at hand was actually made by J. Purdey (!). I know that it sounds truly odd, but then on the other hand there are certain evindence supporting that and it also seems that there might have existed a link between the firms Rodda and Purdey.

I am eager to learn if any of you have ever heard that J.Purdey has made a single firearm to another name? Surely I'm also interested to hear what else you guys know in general about this practise between makers, be it related to Rodda or not.

Regards,
Saku

Edited by sakmyk (09/01/07 10:10 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: sakmyk]
      #69176 - 10/01/07 12:49 AM

sakmyk:
Although it is difficult for some posters here to swallow, a great many so-called English gun makers never made a single gun themselves. We are all familiar with the Scott-made Hollands before they began making the Royal, and there have been long threads here on Webley numbers, and the Turner and Leonard-built Jeffery doubles. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

It is pretty obvious that many so-called 'makers' even in London simply recieved their orders from their Birmingham contractors, peeled back the wrapper enough to confirm that the items were delivered as ordered, then sent off telegrams to the waiting clients. In many cases, perhaps most cases, the guns were delivered completely finished as ordered: stocked, engraved, blacked etc, with whatever name and address engraved on the locks and rib as the 'gunmaker' specified. Of course many Birmingham firms employed sub-contractors in the form of action filers, barrel strikers, stockers and engravers to assemble the components, as only the larger firms could afford to employ these workers 'in house'.

The most accurate and unbiased publications on this subject are not about doubles at all! Read between the lines in Wally Winfer's books on Single Shot Rifles for a pretty good picture of how the British gun trade was actually conducted! Wally is not bashful about admitting who built what, and for whom! Tate's book on Birmingham gunmakers gives a reasonable insight too, but from memory he 'pulls his punches' a little!

Its a highly interesting subject, made all the more fascinating by the fact that the historical record is incomplete, to say the least, and in many cases we are left with only the guns themselves as testament to the intricacies of the British gun trade a century ago.

That said, I have never heard or read of a tie-up between Purdey and Rodda, but nothing would surprise me! I'd be interested to hear just what your 'certain evidence' for this link is!

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Marrakai
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Rusty
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Marrakai]
      #69195 - 10/01/07 06:35 AM

As stated above most of the "Named" houses made very few rifles if any. They actually bought the barreled actions in the white from manufactures for the "Trades" such as Leonard. This a photo copy of a page out of the Jeffery records. Please note that most of the rifles came from Leonard.
That's why my A. Hollis and Son of circa 1910-1914 looks just like a Jeffery of the same eara.



A W.J. Jeffery 475 #2 Jeffery

An A. Hollis and Son 450/400 3 inch


Both Leonard actions!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Marrakai]
      #69199 - 10/01/07 07:03 AM

Marrakai & Rusty,

thanks for your enlightening replies! At first I must make a linquistic correction that may be required.

When reading the last words of Marrakai's reply, it occurred to me that my expression ’certain evidence’ means something that is ’for sure’ – at least primarily so, I guess. What I meant to say is that there is 'certain kind of evidence', i.e. things that indicate to the existense of this Rodda-Purdey link but not confirm it. That’s what I meant to say. Sorry for this inaccuracy in my text.

With the evidence I referred to I mean a selection of minor issues, which together may insinuate to a connection between them. There is sometimes conspicuous resemblance in design, in technical details and in decoration, for example. Patent use may give some clues. Furthermore, there is also a possible link via Lawrence family, but I have to say that I’m not too familiar with these subjects so far. My lack of knowledge is actually the main reason to continuously harass you with these inquiries

This Rodda 16-bore is fitted up with a Purdey second patent thumbhole lever, and as I started to search examples of other firearms where this kind of break lever was used, I realised that there are sometimes noticeable similarities in general appearance and in details between this rifle and some Purdeys’ products from the 1870s or so. I’ve discussed this topic also here, and there are some pics that I came across. Also the patent issue is clarified there by much more knowledgeable persons than myself.

This Rodda DR is also equipped with rare cartridge indicators, which is a Purdey patent from 1866.

It is, however, possible that I’m well off the track here, and those similarities tell nothing but the fact that already at that time it was profitable for the less famous makers to copy the best selling and most valued items.

Regards,
Saku

Edited by sakmyk (10/01/07 07:04 AM)

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tinker
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Rusty]
      #69204 - 10/01/07 07:28 AM

Rusty

Who did you get that leger page copy from?

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Rusty
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: tinker]
      #69211 - 10/01/07 09:16 AM

I got it from George Caswell at Champlin.
The Jeffery records are owned by a man who lives in Houston, Tx. 400 Nitro Express and my self are making inquiries about being able to view the records for research. As we understand, the owner isn't very approachable.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
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470evans
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Rusty]
      #69315 - 11/01/07 02:08 PM

I sent a request to Paul Roberts on my Jeffery 400. He forwarded it on to the owner of the records in the US and I received a nice letter and a copy of the ledger 3-4 months later.

The address is:

W.J. Jeffery & CO
PO Box 4718
Houston, Texas 77210

I was very pleased with their quick reply.

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Marrakai
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: 470evans]
      #69535 - 16/01/07 01:00 AM

sakmyk:
Regarding Wal Winfer's books on British Single-Shot Rifles, I had occasion to look something up in Volume 3 'Jeffery and the Trade Farquharsons', and found a 2-page chapter on the firm of R.B.Rodda (pages 162-163).

I quote:
"A retailer who had offices both in England and India."

"This is another of the companies who were strictly retailers, they did no manufacturing themselves."

Wal adds that the company must have been substantial as their firearms are seen fairly often, and this is certainly the impression we get in Australia.

Regarding the possibility of Purdey's making guns for others, there may be a few clues in Richard Beaumont's book "...the Guns and the Family", but a re-read is not on my short-term list of things to do! I'll leave it to others...

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Marrakai
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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Marrakai]
      #69561 - 16/01/07 10:24 AM

Thanks for the reference Marrakai!

As you mentioned Rodda has been a substantial company indeed. None of the firm's catalogues prior to 1928 have been seen, but their centenary catalogue of 1930 listed altogether 103 models of longarms (including 11 models of double rifles) and 20 models of handguns. And furthermore, these 123 gun and rifle models came in various calibres and bores!

I have another source, which states that Rodda actually had a factory in Birmingham since 1890 - Seems that I have to dig deeper to find how it really was. However, even though this was true, it is most probable that the majority of their products have been made by other makers or subcontractors.

I visited H&H London gunroom a couple of years ago, and in their book section I held that Beaumont's hardback as well as many other fine books in my hands... As always, it was only my limited funds that kept me from carrying an armful of that fine literature out of there. Let's hope that someone has the book at hand to be able to check out this issue.

Regards,
Saku

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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: sakmyk]
      #94289 - 15/01/08 09:10 AM

Hi guys,

been away for a while... Some of You may remember me. A little more than a year ago I started at first a thread on 16 bore Rodda double, and then also this one.

I got a new job in May 2007 and then I put aside e.g. the writing of the article on this Rodda DR etc. Now I'm back and trying to get a hold of all the material I've gathered.

As you may quess from the old messages above, the most crucial question on this rifle is about the actual manufacturer. In the course of my examination I've collected various indications/suggestions that through the years Rodda firearms may have been made by W & C Scott, Webley & Scott, J & W Tolley, Gogswell & Harrison, Purdey and Rodda itself. At least Scott and Webley & Scott have actually made Roddas, but others are mere assumptions.

When examining the Purdey possibility, I wrote to one renowned British historian and gunwriter and asked his opinion about this isuue. Of course I attached a good selection of photos on the general appearance of the gun + pics on the proof stamps.

He sentenced that "Purdey made no guns or rifles for the trade and their A, B, C, D and E quality guns and rifles were all made in Birmingham. This Rodda rifle would have been made in Birmingham, who by is impossible to know."

Problem is that this particular Rodda 16-bore carries stamps by London Proof House.

Todays' question number 1) Is it possible, or, has it ever happened that firearms made in B:ham could have been proofed in London Proof House?

If no, then out of the list above it can only be G&H or Purdey, because all the others in the list - that includes Rodda, too - were Birmingham gunmakers. Also it seems improbable that a particular firearm would have been made in Birmingham, then proofed in London, and the shipped back to Rodda & Co in Birmingham.

Todays' question number 2) Given that this rifle dates to the late 1870s, do you have any good candidates among London gunmakers besides those two mentioned?

Looking forward to your input.

Regards,
Saku

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470evans
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: sakmyk]
      #94301 - 15/01/08 12:41 PM

Question #1:

My 3 William Evans, a 470 and two 400/360s are Birmingham Webley built guns and all have the London proof.

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Marrakai
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: 470evans]
      #94311 - 15/01/08 02:05 PM

Birmingham guns to be retailed by a London firm were often proved in London as 470evans demonstrates.

Even the opposite is true I believe. The details are not to hand but I have a recollection of reading about a London maker/retailer having a disagreement with the London proof-house director or staff, and subsequently sending his guns north for proof! Anyone shed further light on this?

There is only one hard-and-fast rule when discussing the British gun trade:
Never say "never"!


BTW, my memory is not too bad but I and others might benefit from your re-posting the photo of that 16-bore, save us from going looking for it. This might draw something from the newer members as well.
Thanks in advance.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DoubleD
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Marrakai]
      #94329 - 15/01/08 07:13 PM

Some where I read...Winfer? That where a gun was proofed was sometimes determined by the fee that was charged by one proof house over another and industry politics. When a maker had his guns fail in one house they might pass in another...corruption in the proof house, shades of scandel!!! Tell me it ain't so!

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DD, Ret.

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500Nitro
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: DoubleD]
      #94332 - 15/01/08 09:01 PM



It ain't so.

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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Marrakai]
      #94334 - 15/01/08 10:23 PM

Thanks to all of You for your quick replies!

I realised soon after shutting down my computer last night that as Rodda was mainly based in Calcutta, it is surely propable that their guns have travelled from B:ham to India via London Proof House.

I guess, your replies may support that assumption, too.

470evans,
How can you tell that your W:m Evanses are from Birmingham if they carry London proof stamps? Do you have copies of Evans' ledgers, perhaps, or do you have some other glues?

Hi Marrakai,
I knew that I can count on you surfacing sooner rather than later. Is your crystal indicator Rodda made by Webley & Scott? I browsed through the net just a couple of days ago, and stumbled upon a W&S gun, which had very similar side plates and peep holes with your rifle.

Regards,
Saku

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Marrakai
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: sakmyk]
      #94615 - 18/01/08 03:03 PM

...made by W & C Scott and Sons. Philip Webley had nothing to do with it. Away from my library right now, but Nigel Brown's text will give the date for W & C Scott becoming Webley & Scott. I'll add more later, unless someone else can post the date in the meantime.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Marrakai]
      #94634 - 18/01/08 09:49 PM

Marrakai,

I have Brown's book, and just a few days ago I checked it for both W&C Scott and Philip Webley when I - once again - started to figure out the actual maker of this Rodda that I have at hand (I don't own the gun, but it belongs to a friend of mine).

With my limited linquistic skills I couldn't really sort out the description on the company fusion written in the "Scott section". There are some abbreviations etc. that are sometimes a bit tricky to non-native speaker. I hope someone can help...

In the text on P. Webley Nigel says that "... [Webley] amalgamated with bus[iness] of W & C Scott & son & Richard Ellis & son q.v. to become Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co Ltd 1897, 81-91 Weaman St c.1897-1940 (also Prems at Slaney St & Lancaster St... "

I guess the year of fusion is then 1897. I actually thought that your crystal indicator Rodda is made after that.

Regards,
Saku

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Marrakai
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: sakmyk]
      #94688 - 19/01/08 11:53 AM

sakmyk:
I just re-read my previous post and it came across a bit 'abrupt' and that was not my intention: apologies. By 'nothing to do with it' I really imply nothing to do with the design, or that style of double rifle (including holding of patents, etc). The rifle is 100% pure W&C Scott.

In fact, I'd be extremely surprised if Philip Webley ever made a double rifle prior to 1897, on account of his pre-occupation with pistols and revolvers, but I haven't researched this. We are always learning!

As to year of manufacture of my Scott-built Rodda, it is of course unknown but a guess would have to put it in the 1890s and it could be quite close to the year of amalgamation due to the 'CO EX' stamp on the action flats. The cartridge for which it is chambered never made it to full-nitro status, so let's assume pre-1900 manufacture, however the rifle was actually proved after the trade adopted cordite as the standard propellant, perhaps a year or two after the military acceptance of the new propellant in 1888. The patent date of Scott's hammerless "crystal indicator" sidelock is much earlier of course (Pat#3223 of 1875), although that distinctive lock-plate shape did not appear till later. So... 1890 to 1900...?

Apologies for the minor thread hijack, but I trust it all helps to illustrate the point for your original post.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: Marrakai]
      #94802 - 20/01/08 09:46 PM

Marrakai,
No offence taken - I rather construed your 'abrubtness' being a result of hurry.

Thanks for the info. I'll continue with my digging. I'll let you know if something comes up.

Someone said in another forum that Rodda bore rifles might have been made by Tolley. I guess, I try to get some evidence from that clue next. This "examination" of mine is, however, a bit sporadic - family of seven + two dogs + old house + busy job, they all take care of that.

Recarding your thread hijacking, I never noticed such a thing happening. To my mind we kept this very well under the given topic.

Regards,
Saku

Edited by sakmyk (20/01/08 09:48 PM)

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470evans
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: sakmyk]
      #94847 - 21/01/08 11:10 AM

All the Webley built guns retailed by others will have a 5 digit number different than the serial # of the gun on the short rib if it's an early gun or on the forend loop. If it's on the loop you have to look close to see it.

The actions will also match up to what's listed in the Webley catalogs. My Evans are all built on Webley A&W.C action and my Manton retailed Webley is on the PHV1 action. There is a Webley catalog listed in the Double Rifle Photo section of this forum courtesy of Cpt Curl who has a Gibbs 450 built on the Webley A&W.C action that I wish he would be kind enough to send my way.

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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: 470evans]
      #94928 - 22/01/08 10:50 AM

470evans

Thanks for the info. I have to check that catalog.

BTW, what's a 'short rib'?

Regards,
Saku

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500Nitro
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: sakmyk]
      #94938 - 22/01/08 01:13 PM

Quote:

470evans

Thanks for the info. I have to check that catalog.

BTW, what's a 'short rib'?

Regards,
Saku




1/4 Rib as opposed to a full length rib.

Webley changed - we seem to think - early / mid 20's.

400NE may be able to shed more light on it.

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bouldersmith
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: 500Nitro]
      #94941 - 22/01/08 01:39 PM

I believe in this case that the short rib would be the small lower rib that resides between the action flats and the for-end lug.
Steve

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New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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500Nitro
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: bouldersmith]
      #94942 - 22/01/08 01:40 PM



boulder

Yes, that could be the case.

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sakmyk
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Re: Guns sold under other maker's name [Re: 500Nitro]
      #96073 - 06/02/08 07:30 AM

Thanks for that guys.

'Quarter rib' I knew, but this 'short rib' was novel terminology for me. Bouldersmiths' suggestion sounds plausible.

Regards,
Saku

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