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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Woodbeef
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Reged: 30/12/06
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Loc: Badlands of Alberta
358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog?
      #69009 - 07/01/07 01:00 PM

Is the 358 Win a good choice for North American game or just a dog as some claim?

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BFaucett
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #69013 - 07/01/07 02:14 PM

I have no experience with the .358 Winchester. I do own a .35 Whelen and a 9.3x62 which are very similar to the .358 Win. I haven't hunted with my .35 Whelen yet but I have taken some plains game in South Africa with my 9.3x62 and it worked great (handload: 286 gr bullet at 2390 fps).

Personally, I think cartridges such as the .358 Win, .35 Whelen, and 9.3x62 are too often overlooked and underrated by shooters/hunters in North America. I guess the moderate velocities of these cartridges just don't appeal to many hunters/shooters.

BTW, the ol' 9x57 Mauser (.35 caliber) enjoyed a good reputation and the .358 Winchester has almost identical ballistics.

Some articles that you may enjoy:

The Great .358
This heavyweight member of the .308 family hits like a truck and shoots flat enough for most real-world hunting situations.
By Craig Boddington
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/notes/notes0404_0426/

The 9x57 Mauser
http://www.african-hunter.com/9x57_mauser.htm

Cheers!
-Bob F.

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luv2safari
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #69020 - 07/01/07 02:51 PM

Woody...

A good friend hunts Montana elk with his Browning BLR in 358 Win and loves the round. He says it kills well and is a fast handling rifle in deep woods. He limits shots to 250 yards. It would make a great moose rifle.

I have had excellent results with my 35 Whalen and see no real difference between the two.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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475Guy
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: luv2safari]
      #69025 - 07/01/07 05:29 PM

Like L2S said. A lot of those older rounds have a definite niche in the shooting and hunting scheme of things. You either like 'em or not, nada mas.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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blackberry9
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Reged: 28/07/06
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: 475Guy]
      #69037 - 08/01/07 12:01 AM

Hallo Woodbeef:

an aquaintance of me had shot the flanged version of the .358Win., the .356.Win. for years in a Browning or Marlin lever-action rifle. He was very satisfied about the effect of the 200 or 225gr. Winchester Silver-tip buillet for wild-boars.
I shoot since 12 years the old 9x57Mauser, the ballistics with the lighter buillets are compairable with the ballistic of the .358Win., just the Win. needs a lot of pressure more to reach the same balistic facts.
Difficult will it be, when you will shoot heavier buillets than 225gr. The case-capacity of the .358Win. is very low for a cartrige with such a big diameter. Heavier and longer buillets, like the 250gr. or heavier reduced the powder-space.
180-225gr. are the ideal buillet-weights. With this buillets you can shoot all medium-size games on the northern half-globe, and all thin skinned games in Africa too, when you don´t have to shoot over 200yds distances.
For me, the .358Win, also the 9x57 and the .35Whelen are one of the best medium-size calibres ever made.

regards
Manolito
(friend of .350 cal.)

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DarylS
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #69203 - 10/01/07 07:19 AM

Limited to about 250 yards (as most people should be) the .358 Winchester is one of the better big game cartridges. With today's great bullets, it is even better than previously. No flies on this one.
: I've been kicking myself ever since I gave my brother my .356 Winchester for his guiding, back-up gun. With 250gr. Hornady's at 2,180fps from it's 20" barrel, it is a moose thumper supreme. No moose has taken more than 3 steps after impact, something rarely seen with supposely more powerful, smaller bore rounds. These moose were previously wounded ones at that. Broadside shots are not normal under these circumstances and the .356 did the job on what Elmer used to call "raking shots". Add another 100fps and you have a 22" barreled .358 Wincester. I should add that H335 is the powder of choice for the 250gr. Most other powders bulk up a bit too much. 46.0gr. is the charge and should also work for the .358, same bullet weight. From thee, you can work as pressure signs indicate. It is quite safe in the model 94 Big bore rifle.
; Compare it's ballistics with some of the old favourites from Africa and you'll see almost identical ballistics from the .33 to .35 calibres.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (10/01/07 07:22 AM)

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500grains
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: DarylS]
      #69498 - 15/01/07 12:15 PM

I have shot deer and elk with the 358 Win and I felt it lacked killing power with all of the bullets that I tried except for the 225 grain Woodleigh RN. Based on my experience I would not ever use a 250 grain bullet in the 358, and I would try to use a relatively soft bullet or there will be no expansion.

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Rustyzipper
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: 500grains]
      #71268 - 12/02/07 03:47 AM

I have shot deer and smaller game with bang flop results. Both out of a Lone Eagle pistol (15" bbl) and a Savage99. Most of those kills were with the 200 gr round nose. I have 275 gr to load for bigger game. Good luck if you try it. I enjoy the extreme flexibility of reloading the .358 caliber. Rusty Zipper

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......

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DM
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #72936 - 03/03/07 03:23 AM

Quote:

Is the 358 Win a good choice for North American game or just a dog as some claim?



The "best" use for the 358 Win. is for dispatching old "worn out" Valtra's... hee he heee If it will do that, i guess it's good enough for any other job too...

DM

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4seventy
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #73710 - 13/03/07 12:58 AM

Quote:

Is the 358 Win a good choice for North American game or just a dog as some claim?



Don't know about North American game but do know that the .358 Win is a very good cartridge for some Aussie game.
I had a nice lightweight early flatbolt Ruger 77 in .358 and it laid big pigs and brumbys out very nicely indeed.

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9.3x57
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: 4seventy]
      #79026 - 20/05/07 11:32 AM

As my name implies, I have a favored cartridge that is a cousin of the .358. I hunch that if you shoot the .358 Win with the right bullets you will wonder why any other thin-skinned gamekilling caliber was invented...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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NE450No2
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #79178 - 22/05/07 04:40 PM

It is a shame these medium bore cartridges are not more widely used.
I had a 350 Rem mag for a while, it was very effective on deer.

I have killed a lot of game with a 9,3x74R double rife in North America as well as in Zimbabwe.

Of all the cartridges I have used from the 223 to the 450 No2, from game from coyotes to elephant the 9,3x74R has been as effective as any of them.

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allenday
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #79337 - 24/05/07 11:46 PM

Personally, it's not a cartridge that I'm interested in.

If I want to stick with the 30-06 or 308 case, I'll stay with a .308 or smaller calibers.

If I want to use big, heavy .338 or .358 bullets, I want case-capacity that is proportionally bigger, so in this case, I'd much rather have a 338 Win. Mag. or 358 Norma.

AD

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DarylS
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: allenday]
      #79389 - 26/05/07 01:54 AM

I suspect the new .338 Federal will gain a small, but faithful following as well. My buddy just bought one for his youngest son, while his wife shoots a BLR in .358 - even to shooting a black bear inside the garage that was eating the dog's food.
: That 51mm case is a good one for a variety of calibres. It would also make a great B.C. moose/bear gun in .375, just to have a few rifles on the same case. 270gr. to 286gr. @ 2,300fps would be just A-OK.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Blacktail53
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Reged: 14/06/07
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: DarylS]
      #81331 - 26/06/07 01:24 PM

I love the little .358 Win. I've only used it on one young bull elk so far. Took him with a 225gr Sierra @ about 80 yards or so.
There's lot's of various bullets to use for practice and deer size game. The 225gr Nosler partition would be my first choice as an all-around bullet.
That cartridge is easily good out to 300 yards.
Here's mine, a rebored SAKO Forester. BT53

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DarylS
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Blacktail53]
      #81349 - 27/06/07 03:46 AM

While guiding a bear hunter this last spring, my bro finished off a nice bear with his .356 Winchester, a semi-rimmed cousin to the .358 Winchester. The bear had his left front leg blown almost off by a .300 Wtby, just below the elbow, no other damage to the bear, but he was hurting. The hunter couldn't find it in the sights to finish it off, so he said "you sh/BANG", my bro smacking it through both lungs with his little m94/angle eject. The bear expired in almost instantly. Bang--dead. His load was 46gr. H335, CCI 250 primer and a 250 gr. Hornady. Velocity from the 20" barrel is 2,159fps. That bear died just as previous moose have at from 50 yards to just over 200. Bang -- dead.
: I'd get him to change bullets, but these work so well, he just isn't interested in any changes. It shoots 1-1/2" groups at 100 meters off the bags, not bad for a lever gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: DarylS]
      #81363 - 27/06/07 11:34 AM

Blacktail53:

Was that SAKO originally a .308?

Years ago when I was in the business I sold lots of those SAKO Foresters.

Great rifle!

Who did your reboring?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Blacktail53
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81365 - 27/06/07 11:53 AM

It was a .243 originaly. Had it been a .308 I would have left it alone.
As a .243, the rifle / cartridge seemed a mismatch. A rebore by retired Sprinfield Oregon gunsmith, Bob West cost me a flat $200 and it looks perfect. Cleans easily and shoots well.

It would have a lot more game to it's credit, but I started archery hunting for deer and especialy elk soon after it was made up and haven't had her out very much. I need to work on that. BT53

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xausa
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Woodbeef]
      #89248 - 19/11/07 03:21 AM

I took my .358 Winchester built on a pre-War Mauserwerke Mauser out late yesterday afternoon, the first day of deer season. I was almost back to the house, when I came to the open field behind it and stopped to glass it before moving on out. In the last rays of the sinking sun I could see something reflecting light between me and the hill the house is built on. A quick glance through the scope revealed a six point buck looking at me.

I went to one knee, released the safety, used my hiking stick to steady my rifle, settled the post reticle of the Lyman 2 1/2X All American scope on the buck's shoulder and squeezed the trigger. Immediately following the report of the shot was the satisfying "whop" of the bullet hitting. The buck took off in a dead run and topped the rise to my direct front. A short search revealed him piled up in the middle of the field 150 yards away. The bullet had struck exactly where aimed, had missed the heart but destroyed the lungs and the near shoulder. How he made it that far on a broken shoulder remains a mystery.

The 250 grain Silvertip bullet is too much for the comparatively low resistance of a deer rib cage. It exited, leaving a quarter sized exit hole. In the future, I will stick to the 225 grainers, and leave the 250's for bigger stuff.

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Nakihunter
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: xausa]
      #89263 - 19/11/07 07:44 AM

I love this cartridge & still regret selling my rifle. The consolation is that I used the money on my Simson 9.3X62!

The 358 project was real fun. I got a Mod70 winchester 243 for a real bargain - just the action was worth what I paid for it. I then found a custom rifle for sale - a Mod 88 lever action with a heavy stainless 358 barrel 26" long. The guy who got it built obviously did not understand the cartridge. The original 284 win magazine wouldn't feed the 358 ammo. He had fired about 1 packet of factory ammo & I bought the rifle, dies, 3 packs of ammo & 2 packs of Sierra 225 grs - for a very good price. I sent the Mod 70 & the Mod 88 to a gun smith & got him to switch the barrels, turn down the 358 barrel to a sporter profile & cut to 20" & put a Pachmyre decelator pad on. I sold the Mod 88 now in 243!

I had a Nikel post reticle scope on the 358. At the range it put 3 shots into one hole! I took it for a walk in the very dense bush looking for a red deer. I saw a big hind & shot it quartering towards me - tried to miss the shoulder. I ended up missing the lung but got her in the liver & through the spine. She was dead before i could get to her. The bullet performance is incredible. I could literally eat the meat up to the hole. The tender loins & the back straps were not blood shot. The rifle handled so well in thick bush. Good to see that Ruger have some short action bolt rifles out now. If my rifle comes back on the market, I'll try & buy it back!

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

Edited by Nakihunter (19/11/07 08:45 AM)

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333_okh
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #89266 - 19/11/07 08:38 AM

Well I have come to disagree with velocities over 2600ish fps for game animals your eating. I like the 358 and the Whelen. I also like the 9.5 Mannlicher and the 9.3 Mauser. My current custom is a 6.5X55 SE that launches 155/156 grain slugs at 2600 fps. I think the 338 Federal has a lot to offer, but I am also cautious of small cases and high pressures. I will not hotrod the cartridges past their design. Velocity is too often used as a fix, or just to see who has the hottest caliber, but most of the time it is a poor sub for hunting skills. Sorry, I had to say it and I do not mean any offense to anyone, but a 300 RUM is not needed when your 115 yards from your quarry and bullets often have erratic performance. I know you just spent a buck$ a bullet for your favorite reload in your Ultra or Short Mag, but guess what, you do not need it! The bullet companies are making a killing designing bullets small for caliber but tough to take the velocity junkies handloads. I would choose a heavy long for the caliber load at moderate velocity. Look at what calibers like the 30'06 were designed with. Yeah, that’s right 220 grain slugs reduced to 174 later. This is still larger than most shoot out of it today. Take a look at the 8mm Mauser and the 196/198 grain loads from Europe. How about the 9.3X62 with the 286 grain smashers?!?! We look at the historical reputation of a caliber and them make it into something else when we get it by using bullets in it that we neither the ones that made the reputation, nor the ones designed for the caliber.

Sorry if this is considered a high-jacking of the thread, but the 358 would do everything I would want for NA bigger game, especially under 200 yards with 225s or 250s.

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DarylS
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: 333_okh]
      #89305 - 20/11/07 02:24 AM

The .358Winchester and all rounds similar it are good solid 300 yard game rounds for North America - deer and black bear to moose and elk, but I draw the line on grizzlies to 100 yards with most any calibre, including the heavies. Closer is beter. A very small sighting/hitting error can get you or someone else in the future in a world of hurt. It is not a thing of power but of precise shot placement.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xausa
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: DarylS]
      #89328 - 20/11/07 08:49 AM

I couldn't agree more. A few years ago there was an article in Precision Shooting about 1000 yard deer hunting, which I consider an abomination, and it went on to mention shooting a black bear at that range.

What perple tend to forget, if they ever knew, is that it takes a perceptible time even for a high velocity bullet to reach it's target, and unless the target is inanimate or tethered, there is a chance that it will move after the shot has been fired and before the bullet arrives.

In other words, even in the unlikely event that the shooter is able to judge the range correctly, allow for drop, judge the wind correctly and allow for it, and the execute a perfect shot with a 1/2" of angle rifle, using 1/2" of angle ammunition, it is still possible to miss, or worse yet, to wound. Dealing with a wounded deer from a thousand yards away, and likely as not, across a canyon from the shooter, let alone a wounded bear, is not something a true sportsman will contemplate.

All this aside from the fact that even a bullet from .30/.340 Weatherby will have no more energy than a .30-30 by the time it arrives, even if the most ballistically sound bullet is used, which it shouldn't be, since those bullets are designed to perform at a much higher velocity, and will probably fail to expand properly. A bullet designed for .30-30 velocity would be travelling far slower on arrival.

I once had a 300 yard shot on a Beisa Oryx which was quartering away from me to the right. I aimed to shoot through the boiler room and break the left shoulder. After the shot broke, my PH, who was watching through binoculars, remarked, "He took a step just as you fired." I was using my pre-64 Model 70 .300 H&H with 180 grain Silvertip factory ammunition.

Fortunately, we were on an open plain, and able to follow tha oryx for over a mile in the Land Cruiser. When he finally succombed, he was discovered to have been hit about a foot to the rear of where I was aiming. Even so, it took two additional shots to bring him down. Had we not been in such an open area, he would have escaped to die in agony, or to be eaten alive by lions or hyenas. Not a fit end for such a noble animal.

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9.3x57
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: xausa]
      #89340 - 20/11/07 10:22 AM

Great stuff.

I consider my .358-similar, favored 9.3x57 a 200 yrd cartridge. I have killed elk and deer at that range with it and am quite comfortable with it at that range but no farther. I pretty regularly practice on game-size targets on my rifle range at 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards. I know what I can do and am confident of my shooting at those ranges from certain, practiced field positions. I would feel quite confident with the .358 at all those ranges, assuming proper bullets were used on appropriate game. I have shot enough game sized targets {and a few head of game animals} at ranges greater than 200 yards to know what my comfort level is, or isn't as the case may be. The .358 might be a 300 yard cartridge, but not in my hands.

If I were to take up with a .300 Mag, I'd consider it a 200 yard cartridge also, mostly because I am a 200 yard shooter!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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333_okh
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Re: 358 Win.....Good Choice or Dog? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #89567 - 23/11/07 02:37 PM

"I couldn't agree more. A few years ago there was an article in Precision Shooting about 1000 yard deer hunting, which I consider an abomination, and it went on to mention shooting a black bear at that range."

These are not hunters they are shooters!

I can understand 300 yards, but 1000, never! I have even finished game at over 400, but I choose less than 100 with a good stalk as often as I can. I do not care how good you think you are or really are, you cannot guarantee a humane one-shot kill at 1000 yard in a game hunting situation. I recently was told of an elk hunter with a 338 Lapua and a 750-yard kill. He did and it took three follow-up shots. He was very proud of his new gun and kill, but I was disgusted!

Shooter does not = HUNTER!

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