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NitroXAdministrator
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Comment from African-Hunter Mag
      #6880 - 13/01/04 12:55 PM

Noticed this comment from Ganyana on the African Hunter website

In reply to:

If you are a successful guide, you will be able to afford a double and then can carry one soft and one solid to deal with all eventualities



What do you think?

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nopride2
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #6895 - 13/01/04 03:25 PM

I don't think PH's make that kind of money.

Dave

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DaveJames
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: nopride2]
      #6899 - 13/01/04 05:43 PM

Wonder what he means when he says sussefull

--------------------
"I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught."
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Edited by DaveJames (13/01/04 05:43 PM)

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Will
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #6917 - 14/01/04 02:20 AM

Many of those dudes make pretty good money, relative to their economy, especially the operator/outfitter.

And some have sugar daddies (or mommas) that buy them doubles.

For the PH who will sometimes handle a charge or a fleeing animal, a double is a good idea.





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Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: Will]
      #6921 - 14/01/04 09:58 AM

My comment was more aimed at "carrying a soft and a solid" presumably one in each barrel.

Not knocking Ganyana's comment but from your own personal experience, would this work for you in the heat of the moment?


Most working PHs are not rich and earn around $6000 or $7000 a year. Yes some have sugar Daddies and Mummies and I have met one of these and he was too scared to hunt lion, ele etc again and was working as a river guide with a top up from Mum and Dad to cover party expenses. But $10G of hard currency is a lot of money. On the other hand outfitters who take annual holidays to Europe and/or USA, well I CAN'T afford that so .....

PS I invited Ganyana to comment personally but will have to wait and see if he ventures down here.


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holland465
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #6924 - 14/01/04 11:59 AM

I have a good friend who is a professional hunter in Zimbabwe and I can tell you he makes about $ 500.00 US per month! He has a Evans 470 boxlock double rifle that is very nice. I asked him where he got it and how much he paid for it and his reply was as follows:

" I traded a fellow in Bullawayo two Zebra skins and 50 pounds for it in 1974".

I immeadiately offered him $8,000.00 for it, ( in 1993 ) and he turned me down! Can you imagine the nerve of this guy! It is a real beauty with a ton of rose and scroll engraving and excellent wood as well.

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Bigfive
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: holland465]
      #6947 - 14/01/04 09:39 PM

If you are an outfitter with your own land or farm yes you make money but the most of us PH's here work for peanuts and if we get the chance to hunt on a consession we pay through our asses for it.In Soouth-Africa a lot of guys got guns from customers as a tip or as a present.That unfortunately was stopped by our government.(would'nt mind having a 375 Witworth )

No we dont get a lot of money.That is why I sit in a office in the city 30-40% of the year

--------------------
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470Nitro
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: Bigfive]
      #6949 - 14/01/04 10:36 PM

I don't know in RSA but in Tanzania, a PH receive in each 21 days safari, a tip of 1000US$. That's a lot of money, I presume . I got offers to go to Tanzania to work as PH, and the pay is really good .
I'd hunted with lots of PHs who carried doubles, and I think an expert elephant hunter PH, must carry, at least, a 470NE to protect his client, just in case

--------------------
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Bigfive
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: 470Nitro]
      #6951 - 14/01/04 11:06 PM

It may be good to have a double (of at least 470NE)for elephant but not all that neccesary!!I'll stick to my 460WBY Magnum.It is interesting for me that an highly experianced elephant hunting PH must have a big double (at least 470NE) to protect his clients.Maybe he must issue his clients with at least a 470NE doudle!!

It is funny how in the old days when parksboard and nature conservation in the Kruger National Park cull a herd of 20plus elephant at one time without one getting away and all of them used .375 Brno's.(They must have had highly experienced elephant hunting ph's with them all armed with 470NE doubles)

Bigfive
Inexperianced elephant hunting PH with a old 458 Brno rechambered for 460WBY MAG.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: Bigfive]
      #6961 - 15/01/04 01:09 AM

Back to the original question.

I suppose loading a soft in the first barrel and a solid in the second does make sense.

As naturally you would shoot the first barrel first anyway and then have a solid in reserve as a back up.

But what if the target was a elephant - would a soft do much good?

Would most hunters be switched on enough to pull the rear trigger first and so shoot the solid?


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Will
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #6963 - 15/01/04 01:27 AM

I think for general hunting the combination of a soft and a solid is a good idea. Of course, if it is elephant hunting it would be only solids. From my limited experience, even solids have crappy penetration. Softs would just be asking for big trouble.

The discussion around whether it should be a double or a magazine rifle will go on as long as there is DG hunting.

Most tourist hunters and PH's get by without ever experiencing a charge and most that do get away unscathed. One of the saving graces is that there is more than one hunter on the scene (same applies to the culls where there is a LOT of support). If a hunter was always by himself there would be more getting crunched every year.

It is one thing for the tourist hunter to say what he would do in a charge and quite another to see his/her reaction during the charge. It is difficult for the tourist hunter (like me) to be totally confident when only being on the scene of a potentially dangerous situation for only a week or two a year.

I can tell you it is one spooky experience.

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Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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470Nitro
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #6965 - 15/01/04 01:45 AM

The original question is about a guide, that's a PH not a tourist hunter.
The main roll of any PH is to make the client happy and keep him safe (just to make him come back again ). That's why I think a PH should use a double with both solids bullets (I mean hunting elephants) . He's not hunting, just protecting the client if necessary. A couple of 500 grains solid bullets will do the work.
May be one of each kind while hunting buffalos or Hippos is Ok, but I don't like while elephant hunting

I'm so sorry but I think that way. I'll never mess with any PH who carry a bolt action rifle (almost them), may be my bad english made a mistake but I never said a PH without a double was a bad pro or "Inexperianced" hunter.


--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
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Will
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #6967 - 15/01/04 03:29 AM

NitroX,

There seems to be some confusion as to the point of this post!

Yeah, a double, one soft, one solid, good, right-on, next?

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Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Bigfive
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: Will]
      #6981 - 15/01/04 06:29 PM

470Nitro,

All in good spirit.Was hoping to lure more comments out.
Ok if with a double or a bolt, I agree with you that solids is the way to go.That is for the guide.The client may use softs if it is good bullets and he is going only for heart and lung but I wont advise that.I'll still carry the solids because if anything seriously happens you really need to break bone.You don't need bullets breaking.On the other hand,if the elephant charges only a brain shot will stop it does'nt matter whether it is soft or solid.............................bottom line.....don't miss the brain.

If hunting lion I'll go for soft cause a soft will have more stopping from the front if it charges.Remember a lion is a soft skinned animal and weighs only 250kg-350kg average.A big rifle will put it in reverse gear but with buffalo and elephant its a different story.What rifle can stop 5000kg of muscle charging at 30km/h-60km/h.Think about it.

The soft/solid combination is always good but more for the hunter than the PH.Especially on Buffalo the first must be soft and the second a solid.If the buff turns and runs away after the first shot the next one must hit immediatly and shooting from behind only a solid will penetrate to the vitals or break the backbone.


Peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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4seventy
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #6982 - 15/01/04 06:33 PM

In reply to:

Would most hunters be switched on enough to pull the rear trigger first and so shoot the solid?



If the hunter knows how to use a double and has had experience hunting with doubles, the answer is yes.

If the hunter has little experience hunting with doubles the answer is no.

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NONE
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: 4seventy]
      #6991 - 16/01/04 12:42 AM

The reasons given by most for a solid/soft combo in a double are IMO good ones. As I understand it in the case of the PH the soft solid combo would be ideal for stalking. You never know what may lurk in the next patch of cover, Just because your hunting one type of game doesn't preclude you from being charged or stalked by another, if your hunting buf and while stalking a lion charges your first shot would want to be a soft as you may not have the option of a second shot.

In a situation were you were stalking buff or any game that require the PH to carry solids only he would simply break the action and replace the soft with a solid once the stalk came to the point you were close in to the game you had been following. this of course was more a issue in the older days when day long stalks for long distances were more common.

This is the reasons giving by most I have spoke with or read of that carried a double with the soft/solid combo. It seams based in logic to me and if were to be in the bush for extended periods of time it would be my reason for this combo and IMO is one of the best real arguments for the double for a PH.

I of course would not at all feel less of a PH with a bolt rifle though, People tend to IMO put the spot light on an PH only in the charge ending situation, when IMO a good PH keeps his client out of a charge, I of course would also rather have a PH with any rifle the was a good shot over one with a double that wasn't.

James F. Nixon III

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Ndumo
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NONE]
      #6994 - 16/01/04 02:16 AM

On the question of solid or soft for the PH- that might depend on which rifle he is using. I have used 500 gr Rhino softs (basically the same as Trophy Bonded Bearclaws) in my .450 Rigby Rimless to back up a few buffalo, and had tremendous penetration.
I remember one shot went in the same distance as a .505 Gibbs solid ( 525gr Woodleigh). (Both shots were fired in between buffalo's shoulder blades- already lying down on the side- and both were found in the brisket.) This bullet, driven at 2400ft/sec., will propably drop or turn a charging elephant cow, (which is more likely to be encountered in an unprovoked charge than a bull), if directed to the brain, because of its penetration. The same can be said about Barnes X bullets.
However- if in country were elephant are likely- I believe PH sould carry only solids, as his job is only to help stop charges, and shoot at the rear end of wounded animals. In both cases more penetration than available from a soft is often requiered.
On the topic of cats- Yes cats die more readily from softs, but so does anything else if adiquate penetration is acieved- (penetration through vitals). They die from solids as well, and can be stopped with a big bore solid, say .458 and up, especially if it is a blunt nose solid or, duel diameter solid.

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Karl Stumpfe
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DUGABOY1
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: Ndumo]
      #7008 - 16/01/04 12:56 PM

I don't know what you are supposed to do, but I hunt with a double most often, and I carry the rifle loaded with a soft in the right barrel, and a solid in the left. Additionally, I carry two solids between the fingers of my left hand,in the final stages of a stalk, or did, till I had a lot of cancer surgery on my left hand. On my belt in front all are solids. Two of them in a little gadgit called a "DOUBLE DUTY" made by Galco! This little gadgit when flipped open drops two cartridges, primer down in your left hand! So I have a soft for the first shot, if I get a standing shot, or if I stumble onto a lion in the bush, at close range. All the next 5 shots will be solids! Now I don't hunt elephant, but most times I will be hunting Buffalo. If I were hunting ele, then all would be solids! But I am a client hunter, that can't afford to hunt Elephant, so it doesn't matter. When hunting buffalo, I want my PH to use solids in his double,because I don't want him to fire his rifle, unless I'm about to get stomped, or the Buff is getting away into the weeds.

All that is a long winded way of saying the soft & solid is proper for the client with a double, but not for a PH! Just my $.02!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Zapata
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7371 - 24/01/04 11:46 AM

Hey, Y'all,
In a recent Sporting Classics magazine, there was an excellent interview with the great Harry Selby, arguably the greatest living dangerous game hunter and PH we have. His direct comment was that he never used anything but solids, no matter what he was shooting at, and these from the relatively medium-bore .416 Rigby. I tend to agree with him, because I've sure laid a lotta animals low, big and small, with 30-06 military spitzers, probably the WORST design ever applied to a bullet that was meant to kill something! Food for thought-----a .45- or .50 solid is about the same in frontal area as an expanded and partially disintegrated 9.3 or .375. Whatcha think?

"When in Doubt, Use More Gun!!!"

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JoeR
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: Zapata]
      #7460 - 26/01/04 09:49 AM

While it is true that a double rifle is a lot of money for most PH's, the rifle is a tool that the trade requires. Another tool is the huinting vehicle, and I recall one PH from Zimbabwe with whom I hunted who had just paid over $50,000 US for his Land Cruiser, and it was not new when he bought it. In comparison, that makes the the price of a reasonable double relatively inexpensive.

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atkinson6
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: JoeR]
      #7543 - 27/01/04 04:05 PM

I mostly carry two solids in my double.. I believe in solids and the flat nose solids just reinforce my idea of a good stopping round...I have shot everything with them..I like two holes in everything I shoot...Sometimes I carry a soft in my double.

I certainly don't see a thing wrong with carrying a soft and a solid if the shooter is comfortable with it, nor do I see anything wrong with carrying two softs or two solids, after all its his business that he is conducting....

This is an age old arguement among the most experienced of hunters as well as those who have never fired a shot at dangerous game, so it will not be settled in these pages....Nor was it a subject that was ever worth such monumental conversations, its a shallow ridiculas arguement...

It mostly depends on what one is hunting and why he is packing the rifle, is he a hunter or backup or PH...A Ph might choose a soft and a solid in case of a close encounter with a Lion, Buffalo or Elephant, the soft would certainly be better for Lion, would work OK on buff and not very good on elephant, but then he has the solid for that, viola! he has all the bases covered!!!...Were I hunting Lions then I would carry two softs in my gun...

Nothing is written in stone and the determination as to what to carry is usually decided when you load the gun to go into the bush after the animal, and should the conversation ever come up at that time, I will surly shoot the SOB who brought it up,in both of his knee caps with a couple of solids, perhaps, perhaps not, one round may be a soft.......;)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: atkinson6]
      #7634 - 28/01/04 09:28 PM

I brought up this topic for one reason.

i hear a lot of times in shotgunning circles that its no use using loading two different shells or shot sizes in a double. The claim is the shooter will never be able to choose the right shot size in the instant it is required.

I have never subscribed to this theory and often for example load smaller shot in the first barrel and larger shot in the second assuming the bird is going to be further away. Most times it has never been an issue choosing one barrel and trigger over the other even if only a split second.

In double rifle circles the loading of a soft and solid seems to be much more the norm. This assumes the shooter can choose which barrel quickly or at least assumes the left then the right if required.

Of course a shotgun with a duck is far different from a buffalo or whatever looking to kill you. I don't personally have the experience to judge.

Why the difference do you think? Surely the second scenario is much more stressful and would result in wires getting crossed much more easily?

Perhaps it is only those ridiculous shotguns with single selective triggers.


PS People are free here to discuss whatever they want.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Will
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #7645 - 29/01/04 02:11 AM

Having one of each isn't going to hurt anything, so why not? Every shot isn't a panic situation and could trade triggers if you wanted.

Assuming you could accurately to try to brain a buff, there really is no need for solids, as a soft will brain them.

If you cannot possibly wait for a better shot than one requiring a solid, carry two solids.

I don't see that it will make any difference in the long run, except I do not like solids on buffalo as there is too great a chance of wounding others.

And, if I was ever to get another double, which I doubt, it would be a single trigger. I do not have the presence of mind in stressful situations to switch triggers. I could never get with the program with pump shotguns either, so you can see I am a hopeless case!



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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mickey
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #7646 - 29/01/04 02:17 AM

I agree with Ray. It is fine to carry a soft solid and fine not too. It would all depend on the circumstances that you felt were upcoming. 'You pays your money and you takes your chances'.

I have done it both ways. If you, for instance, are walking out from a Leopard blind after dark and you know there are Lions about you may wish to put in two softs. If there are Eles around you may like two solids. If there are both around you may wish you had stayed in Camp.

No always right answer and no always wrong answer and a question that just needs a little common sense applied at the time.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Bakes
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Re: Comment from African-Hunter Mag [Re: atkinson6]
      #7649 - 29/01/04 03:04 AM

In reply to:

....Nor was it a subject that was ever worth such monumental conversations, its a shallow ridiculas arguement...




Jezze its just a discussion Ray, lighten up a bit mate.

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