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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular?
      #68453 - 01/01/07 08:34 AM

Most of our hunting is not pursuit of dangerous game. Most of it is stalking deer, moose or elk. So I wonder why fine double rifles in lighter calibers are not more popular. For example, below is a pic of a Hambrusch best quality O/U 7x65R with rail mounted scope, which would be an excellent deer rifle.



(found this for sale at steve barnett fine guns for $18K)

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: 500grains]
      #68459 - 01/01/07 09:27 AM

Except for one guy in 100,000, I'd say it's a matter of $$$.

I think O/U Austrian and other Euro built rifles are the

most elegant looking rifles period. But since I am not a

wealthy man, my first double will be able to be used on

all dangerous game with confidence. The rifle you have

pointed us toward is one I'd like to have as my forth or

fifth double.

--------------------
Cordially,
Jack

NRA Endowment Member
DRSS Member

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #68461 - 01/01/07 09:37 AM

I'm sure there are are many more Doubles in 9.3x74R and smaller than there are larger. I used to see them all of the time and now, except for new rifles, they are rare. Maybe everyone that has one is hanging on to them because they are so nice and elegant.

When I was in the Czech Republic most of the hunters on the drive hunts had Doubles, either sxs or o/u. A very good rifle for most hunting in thick cover. I used one in Wisconsin and a friend used an 8 bore there. Range was always under 200 yards and usually under 100 yards.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: mickey]
      #68474 - 01/01/07 03:20 PM

The answer is really simple. Small caliber is for small game and in North America most “big” hunting is done in cold wet weather.

I personally would love to have a light 30-06 double, but most Americans and Canadians would rather save the pricey double for dangerous game and leave the small caliber to a “cheap” Ruger No. 1.

Anyone have a mid-1970's 30-06 Ruger international for sale?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: bonanza]
      #68492 - 02/01/07 01:33 AM

I think Bonanza is correct!

The smaller caliber bouble would be pricier and somewhat range limited vs a cheaper semiautomatic bolt.They would be less weather tolerant as well.Most americans would think them less practical and more of a safe queen.I think they would be even less popular than the Drilling combo's out there!

I guess it comes down to the most popular "big" game hunted-whitetail.Most americans would think percieved advantage with a rifle with one barrel vs 2 as lighter and handier and cheaper.

Where would the smaller Double calibers have the advantage?I would think against cougar and pigs at closer ranges where a fast 2nd shot is at a premium.

And as 500 grains has said in America the Double rifle is only thought practical for big dangerous game.For 95% of the hunters no such game will ever be hunted!! Indeed in the states I will admit I wouldn't want any Double smaller than a 9.3 x 74R.Saying that I do feel the 9.3 caliber would be neat for black bear, elk, moose,pigs,and scaring up whitetail/mulies.

A 9.3 is definitely on my want list!! Very Classy and unique! I think it may be the most popular Double cailber sold for hunting game here in the States!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/01/07 01:43 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68494 - 02/01/07 01:40 AM

"Where would the smaller Double calibers have the advantage?"

In Europe. Repeating rifles are banned.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: bonanza]
      #68505 - 02/01/07 04:15 AM

Agreed again, but I will also say I detest most all semiauto hunting riflea due to poor reliability and mediocre accuracy.I except military rifles from this judgement due to their trackrecord of reliability(not necessarily accuracy).

I am biased somewhat by owning a Rem 742 "jammomatic" in 30.06.I do not hold this bias against semiauto shotguns but they are not rifles.

If I were going close range with bear,cougar, or pigs in the states I will take that reliable Double ever time.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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bonanza
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68506 - 02/01/07 04:32 AM

I have a Browning BAR in .308 for cheap plinking at the range, but would NEVER take hunting because when it jams - it's a bear to extract the case. The beauty of the double is, if the first round causes a jam you still have a second shot!

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: bonanza]
      #68509 - 02/01/07 04:58 AM

Had a buddy BT who was hunting in Washington State and shot a mulie with a 742 and had it jam. Couldn't find it and went back the next day after cleaning the rifle and was attacked by a black bear. It took 5 fast shots on the closing bear to stop it 6 feet from where he stood.

Sacred the hell out of him and he now refuses to hunt anywhere where potential large animal attacks could occur with a semiauto. NO WAY, NO HOW!!!

I know he would love to have a Double for such a scenario!!

Edited by hoppdoc (02/01/07 05:00 AM)

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Russ_Gould
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Reged: 20/12/06
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Loc: OR, USA
Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68512 - 02/01/07 05:24 AM

The average American hunter is not a wealthy man, and thus a bolt or lever rifle presents a far more practical, accurate, lighter, stronger, and affordable solution for NA hunting than a double. It's a matter of superior technology, hate to say it but it's a fact.

The double offers some practical advantages that are most important for DG, but that aside the double's advantages lie in the areas of romance and aesthetic appeal. The most affluent hunters place more value on the advantages of a double so that's why they are still seen in Europe. Hunting in Europe is a rich man's sport, for the most part, and tradition is very strong there both in terms of hunting methods and in terms of equipment.

It also doesn't help that most light caliber doubles are offered in calibers that are not popular in the USA.

The automotive analogy would be "Why doesn't everyone drive a vintage Rolls Royce?"

I will say that you can almost have your cake and eat it too with the Valmet (now FinnClassic 512S) system. There you have a shotgun, a DG rifle, and a North American rifle (or combo) for about the same investment you would need to make to buy a modern bolt DG rifle, an O/U shotgun, and a deer/elk rifle battery. The FinnClassic comes in Euro ctgs such as 9.3x74R, 7x57R, 7x65R, 6.5x55, as well as popular American calibers such as 30-06 and 308. The combos come in 12/222 among others, just perfect for Turkey or Coyote hunters.

I am biased, as I must disclose that I am the importer of these fine guns.

--------------------
http://doublegunhq.com - specializing in fine English, German and American double guns; and http://bigfivehq.com, specializing in safari rifles and hunting safaris

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bonanza
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: Russ_Gould]
      #68514 - 02/01/07 05:58 AM

I was thinking of the very same rifle.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: bonanza]
      #68515 - 02/01/07 06:31 AM

Quote from BT after he survived his bear attack---

With a shaking voice he described the attack to me and others then looked at his Rem 742 with its Tasco scope(the scope was off and had shot wide left)-
" That PIECE OF SH*T almost killed me!!
He says he has never hunted with that gun again!!

I told him I agreed and he hunted the rest of the hunt with a borrowed Ruger 30.06 bolt.

You get what you pay for. What exactly is your life worth?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68520 - 02/01/07 09:32 AM

Most guys I know that own double rifles own only big bores, or at least buy a big bore first. I did the same, and it's a mistake. The British had it right with their medium bores (those below .375 Flanged Magnum and 9.3X74R). Doubles in .400/.350, .350 No. 2, .400/.360 and .375 2 1/2" Flanged are extremely effective on ordinary game and more fun to hunt with than any other rifle I've ever used. They're superb brush and timber rifles for North America and are the finest boar and black bear rifles ever made. Old Elmer was extremely fond of a Lancaster .375 2 1/2", and he was right. The smaller bores like the .303 and .280 Flanged are fine for lighter game, and are fun to play with, but aren't as flexible.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
Loc: Sydney Australia
Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: 500grains]
      #68526 - 02/01/07 10:50 AM

Not being a double rifle owner I will guess from a distance

The perception of so so accuracy. Big bores are a bit different in that area. People are usually looking for less, their testing is not as extensive as with small bores and 1.5" group from a 458 looks nice....from a 243 it looks like a pattern.

Price is obviously a very big issue. However, with bolt actions, once you hit 375 H&H and above you do not need to get real serious before the dollars start to mount up...and of course cost of components.

So the gap in price (including components) is not so great between something like a Searcy and a big bore bolt gun as there is to the small bore.

Lastly, people just seem prepared to pay more for a big bore.

Mike

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #68843 - 05/01/07 11:41 AM

All the comments have iron in them, but I believe the biggest reason most do not buy a double rifle of any kind is because of the many misconceptions written by gun writers who know even less about double rifles than the readers! You can ask any double rifle question around any deer camp fire, and if there are ten people there, you will get ten different answers to any question you ask, and most will be wrong. Well known gunsmiths, even those who build some really nice custom rifles, have absolutely no understanding of double rifles, and when asked spread missinformation, as fact!

First, the top misconception is that double rifles are only capable of a "minute of GRAPEFRUIT" Accuracy at no more than 50 yds. This is absolutely not true! Under hunting conditions, with proper loads, the double rifle is as accurate as any hunting rifle! The key is knowing what constitutes a "PROPER LOAD"! Even very experienced handloaders, do not usually have the expertese to load a proper load for a double rifle. You would not believe the number of fine double rifles I have bought because the guy bought it, and then couldn't make it shoot. All that had to be done was to build a PROPER load for the rifle, meanwhile, the guy who sold it to me thought he was getting rid if a LEMON!

Second, is that few deer, elk, and moose hunters have that "KEY",to a proper load, and if the ammo that will regulate in the double doesn't come from Wally world, they won't bother with it!

The price of many of the smaller chamberings are cheaper than many rifles, both custom, and simi custom, like Dakota, are seen in deer camps,quite often, so that is not the total issue.

...............The reason is lack of undersatnding, for the most part, IMO !

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #68845 - 05/01/07 12:08 PM

Mac,

I think the basic difference is that with a Dakota, gunsmith custom, custom shop Wby etc and etc the shooter, rightly or wrongly, believes he is buying high levels of accuracy. He also believes he is buying total reliability and also a gun that can do hust about everything.

Also, he does not see the double as a gun that he will stick a 4-12 scope on.

Another factor is that for the price of a Searcy/Merkel etc or a vintage double then with the exception of wood bolt guns from the likes of Echols and Miller and of course H&H, Purdey and WR, the shooter can buy right at the top end of the bolt gun as opposed to what might be seen as an entry level double.

I have never shot the big animals but I don't need to shoot them to know that about all the pluses a big bore custom bolt offers just about go out the window.

I also believe that if you are really keen on a type of rifle and calibre then you will be lead or gravitate to hunting and shooting situations that suit your choice of calibre/gun type.

Mike

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DoubleD
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #68848 - 05/01/07 02:06 PM

Mack,

Help reduce my ignorance of doubles.

You are saying that Doubles can be regulated-loads developed that allow me to shoot Montana grain field whitetails at ranges from 100 to 400 yards?

I knew doubles could be accurate, but I had always been lead to believe that the cumulative accuracy of both barrels together was only within a very narrow window.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: DoubleD]
      #68856 - 05/01/07 04:50 PM

I have multiple bolts but would acknowledge them inferior to small caliber Doubles in certain situations.

In the states hunting cougar would be certainly be one of them.Others would be fleeing game stalked or shot from a treestand in heavy timber.

Correct me if I am wrong but If I am hunting at longer ranges I would think hitting POA for distant shooting becomes somewhat problematic with increasing differgence from the 2nd barrel.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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darkgael
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68866 - 05/01/07 11:51 PM

I am fairly new to this forum and a baby to DRs but I'd like to add my recent revelatory experience with a new Rizzini O/U in 30-06. I have posted this in the thread about my first DR and apologize for no pics but that rifle shot bullet weights of 150/165/180 - one shot from each barrel - into a 2 inch group at 100yds. with my 60 yr. old eyes and factory irons. I can easily believe that, with a scope, the firearm would be effective at much longer distances.
Pete

--------------------
The readiness is all.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #68877 - 06/01/07 02:53 AM

Quote:

Also, he does not see the double as a gun that he will stick a 4-12 scope on.



Lord I hope not. I don't have any use for a 12X scope. Don't own a rifle that a 12X scope would be appropriate for. Such a rifle is not a hunting rifle anyway, so I have no use for one.

Re-reading this thread, I realized that Mac got it right. The reason is entirely misconception. Most of us who hunt with medium and small bore doubles, as well as large bores, would sooner do without the large bores. Very few will ever really understand the double rifle, and that's a good thing. More for those of us who do.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: DoubleD]
      #68890 - 06/01/07 05:38 AM

Quote:

You are saying that Doubles can be regulated-loads developed that allow me to shoot Montana grain field whitetails at ranges from 100 to 400 yards?




A good small caliber double will shoot accurately in that range. Most likely you will have a scope to aid with sight definition.

Regulation is often misunderstood. It is sometimes stated that a DR is regulated for a specific distance. This implies that the two barrels converge to a single point at the stated distance, and that they then cross and diverge at greater distances. Although a DR might be regulated this way, I don't consider it to be proper regulation. In my opinion the proper regulation is that load which causes the barrels to shoot parallel. There you will see the two barrel groups separated by the distance between the centers of the bores (a negligible amount in terms of hunting). This separation continues uniformly down-range, with the barrel groups opening up according to the accuracy of the individual barrels and the load.

I am a strong advocate of light caliber double rifles, and I have posted on the subject on this forum at various occasions.

I personally killed a whitetail standing across a harvested cornfield at 265 yards with one shot from my .300 Mag. DR a couple seasons ago. The bullet was right to the heart, as I knew it would be. The shot was no more difficult or improbable with the DR than it would have been with a bolt gun.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: CptCurl]
      #68891 - 06/01/07 05:40 AM

P.S.

All you guys with those unpopular and useless small bore DR's can do yourself a favor by just boxing them up and sending them to me. On a good day when I'm feeling generous, I might even reimburse the cost of shipping!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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400NitroExpress
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: CptCurl]
      #68899 - 06/01/07 06:12 AM

Roscoe:

Shhhh! They obviously don't get it. Don't mess up a good thing!

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #68900 - 06/01/07 06:17 AM

Question--

What type of divergence would one expect with a double well regulated at 300 yds?

If right and left barrels are 1" apart at 50 yards would we expect a difference of 6" at 300 yds or 1" apart? Would you need to best regulate at 100 yds for a small bore Double?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (06/01/07 06:24 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why aren't light caliber doubles more popular? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #68901 - 06/01/07 06:32 AM

Quote:

If right and left barrels are 1" apart at 50 yards would we expect a difference of 6" at 300 yds or 1" apart?



Regulate them parallel. They will be 1" apart at all ranges.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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