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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Double Rifle Survey
#66156 - 02/12/06 06:19 AM

This may have been asked before but I will ask again for numbers sake-

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NE450No2
.375 member

Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: hoppdoc]
#66165 - 02/12/06 07:00 AM

I voted for the 450/400 as I think it is the best choice for the modern Safari hunter.
I have used the 9,3x74R, the 450/400 3 1/4", and the 450 No2 in Africa.

All have given excellent performance on a variety of game. I have taken plains game, buff and elephant with all 3.

The 450/400, especially if scoped, is the best all round choice.

If you are shooting mostly plains game, a buffalo, and maybe a cow elephant the 9,3x74R will serve you well.

If you African Safari revolves around multiple elephants, multiple buffalo, then a 450 or up Double is a good choice, IF you can carry the extra weight and take the extra recoil.

Hoewver,
You can NEVER go wrong with a 450/400 double.

It has all the power and penetration you need for ANY game.

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: NE450No2]
#66178 - 02/12/06 09:21 AM

I think an open sighted double rifle is by far the best choice for elephants so I beleive that your double rifle ought to be first an elephant rifle. That means 450+ to me.

Nothing wrong with using that elephant rifle on buff either, though here a scoped rifle will proove more versitile. I use my elephant rifle for buff, but if I were purely out to shoot the biggest set of horns I would be carrying a scoped rifle with a reasonably flat trajectory and the tracker would be carrying my big double - or vice versa.

If my preference were reversed and instead of elephants being my prefered target and buff a fun to hunt distant second it were the other way around, I might drop the 450+ and settle on a 450/400 weighing no more than 9 1/2lbs shooting North Fork flat nose solids and cup points, equiped with a good scope in claw mounts.

My second rifle will always have to be a legal and wise choice for elephants. For me right now its a bolt 375H&H.

JPK

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: hoppdoc]
#66184 - 02/12/06 10:41 AM

I think .458 caliber trumps them all. In a bolt action you are talking 458 Lott and double one of the 450's.

Here is my argument;
1)choice: midway reloading has 114 different .458 bullets ranging from 300 to 600 grains.

2)performance: a 350 .458 will match a .375 300 grain bullet out to 100 yards, a 400 grain .458 bullet will perform as well as a 400 grain .411 bullet, a 550 grain .458 bullet will come close to 570 grain .510 bullet.
3)cost: if it matters, .458 bullets can be purchased very inexpensively.

If given the choice of two identical doubles in 450-400 or 500-450, I'd take the latter.

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: JPK]
#66185 - 02/12/06 10:46 AM

I have never hunted Buff or Ele but would think the Double should be used first and foremost as a trump card,an elephant stopper when hunting DG with ELe encounters possible. That means the biggest Double caliber with solids I can handle for intial and followup shots--a 500 nitro. I can always have someone carry a 416 bolt and handoff the Big Double for other situations hunting Buff, etc.

I have no African experience but I think the Double should best be used for the purpose it was designed for-as a close range stopping/killing machine. Be it the proven 450-470 class of Ele stoppers with shooting parameters similar to the 458 WM or bigger Double classes above the 450's, that seems to be the natural niche the Double best occupies.

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: hoppdoc]
#66188 - 02/12/06 11:01 AM

Hop,

The double was not invented for DG, as the first ones were muzzle loaders. Then, as now, they afford the hunter a fast pointing rifle with a very quick follow up shot. Apart from the weight, they make fine hunting rifles is appropriatly chambered. BlackBearHunter has a sweet 30-06 merkel, that IMHO, makes an exellent deer/elk rifle. I have the same thing in .375 H&H that I take deer hunting. I know you have a scooped .500 NE, try down loading with a 440 woodleigh, you will be suprised how fun it is.

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NE450No2
.375 member

Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: JPK]
#66190 - 02/12/06 12:06 PM

JPK
Have you thought about scoping your 458 double?

Say, maybe with 2 scopes fitted in claw mounts.

One a S&B 1.1-4 with illuminated flashdot reticle sighted in with the 450/500gr for buff when necessary, and lion, [like you I prefer iron sights for elephant].

And two, a S&B 1.5-6x42 with flash dot reticle, sighted in for North Fork 350gr Soft [the only soft he makes that HE considers safe in double rifles], for leopard, black bear etc.

That would make your great 458 the perfect 458 double.

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: NE450No2]
#66195 - 02/12/06 12:33 PM

450,

I think you know that I have a 450No.2 Jeffery with two barrels. The original which are nearly mint and a modern set. I never have though about scooping a 1906 British Double, but on the new barrels it would not detract the value, perhaps increase it because one could reasonably shoot out to 200 yards with 350 grain projectiles greatly expanding the utility of the gun.

BTW, I shoot the NF 350 grain flat points in both of my .458 doubles with great results. I've recovered some and the riflings only have engraved the grooves (bands). The ogive remains untouched. I'm going to try his 450 solid, as he has said they are are safe in a DR also.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: bonanza]
#66213 - 02/12/06 04:35 PM

Bonanza
I have shot a giraffe with North Fork .458 Cup Points and Flat Point Solids and and 2 elephants with his Flat Point Solids in my 450 No2.
They are excellent bullets.

I think they are perfectly safe in double rifles.

I am very happy with my scoped 450/400.

I say go for it. I would have JJ Perodeau fit claw mounts to the "modern" 450 No2 bbls.
I can highly recommend the S&B 1.1-4 with the flash dot reticle.

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39903
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: NE450No2]
#66219 - 02/12/06 10:06 PM

I picked the .450 to .470 class as the survey doesn't specify what the range of target game would be, ie large game or everything from plains game to elephant.

If it was everything and in between the .400 class would certainly be a contender.

If mainly large game, then I feel more confident with a .450 and up.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: NE450No2]
#66221 - 02/12/06 10:08 PM

I would think the Double is best employed shooting solids when hunting Ele at close range. The bigger hole the better.

That said I enjoy handling my present 500 Double so much I would love to hunt other game and Buff(with no possibility of Ele)with a QD scoped 450/400.A soft backed up by a solid should be great.400 grains at 2150 fps should be lethal enough for any animal considered housed in a lighter Double than the Ele gun.Following this line of thought a QD scoped 9.3x74 shooting just solids should be a dandy as well, although not having the "stopping" ability of the 450/400.Methinks I would go for the 450/400 for Africa though.

All this heavy thinking from someone who has never been to Africa. I hope to correct that this spring though.

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: hoppdoc]
#66230 - 03/12/06 12:42 AM

The 450/400 3 inch provides the best of two worlds. If chambered in a 10 pound rifle it won't beat you to death. It is small enough to find an excuse to hunt more often with it. It is big enough to swat whatever pops up outta the bush! In the 400 grain bullets are long and penetrate well!
Don't take my word for it, ask anyone who has shot an elephant with a 450/400 it does a great job.

The double rifle is a specific tool designed for a specific job. As we all know, that has never stopped us from trying to stretch the uses for our doubles. The 450/400 accomplishes this better than any other double rifle chambering! Loaded with 300 grain Hawks it makes a great North American round. Wharthogs to Elephants, you are covered!

Just my opine!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: Rusty]
#66296 - 03/12/06 05:31 PM

450 NE No2,

I have zero desire to scope my 458. If I had a 375 FM though, It would have a 1.5x6x42 illumintaed reticle scope in claw mounts and a lace on or slip on or velcro on comb.

BTW, I shot a 4 1/4" klipspringer at 75yds with my double way back on the south east side of Chewore, far beyond the last road.

Rusty,

10lbs of rifle ought to be a heck of alot more rifle than a 450/400 in my opinion. That weight is 450/470 territory. 9lbs-9 1/2lbs, that would be 450/400 territory for me, preferably 9lbs. (Weights without scopes.)

JPK

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3599
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: JPK]
#66344 - 04/12/06 09:21 PM

hoppdoc:
I voted for the .400, but not without some thought. The .450/.470 class may well be better for Africa if DG are on the menu, but a double for Africa in the hands of a non-African will need to be shot a lot at other local game for familiarity and skill-development. Rifles in the .400 class will be used for practice on local game a helluva lot more than the .450-plus heavy hitters, and in my opinion that is what makes a successful African double: one that will be practiced with continuously at home, and can still 'do the business' on safari. So.... the .400 got the nod.

How many rounds are fired from the average double rifle 'state-side' for every shot fired in Africa? My guess would be in the high hundreds, or even more. ...at least it should be!

...and JPK, I fail to understand your obsession with a mere half-pound of rifle weight! So you contend that a .400 double should weigh only 9 1/2 lbs max, not ten? Mate, if the average shooter could actually pick that 1/2-pound in a well-balanced (read 'English'

) double rifle, not even blind-folded, I'd eat my hat! Ten pounds is just perfect for a .400 double as Rusty says. Hell, I carried mine for 16 km in 40 degree heat yesterday (as always it seems!). Did I beat myself up because it didn't weigh only 9 or 9 1/2 lbs? Hardly!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JPK
.375 member

Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: Double Rifle Survey [Re: Marrakai]
#66357 - 05/12/06 05:07 AM

Marraki,

30 days of walking, many over 100*, many steep hills and some mountains and I'll take the half pound, or better yet the whole pound. Geez, I'll take the half or whole pound for just a day too. I think weight should be a matter of recoil control, for the most part. For a 450 class rifle, 10 to 11 pounds; for a 450/400 no need for the weight.

A heavy but well balanced rifle will hide the weight in the hands, as you say, but it can't hide the weight on the shoulder.

JPK

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