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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
what would you do if..........
      #7293 - 23/01/04 07:52 AM

Hi Folks,

What would you do if a hunter had spoken to you about a hunt and then later told you that he had decided to book with someone else, but you knew that someone else was a crook and currently being sought by Parks Board for various offenses?

By telling the hunter what you knew you would look like you were suffering a dose of sour grapes and behaving unprofessionally, yet by not telling him what you knew, you were running the risk that he would have an unhappy hunt and probably have trouble getting his trophies home later.

...... purely theoretical of course, but I look forward to hearing your opinions.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: shakari]
      #8712 - 11/02/04 10:01 AM

I deal with this all the time... only in this case its in regard to someones life savings... or worse.

(yeah, I know I'm not a PH!)

tell the client this: "Do me a favor and be careful, VERY careful"

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)


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AspenHill
Sponsor


Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #12557 - 27/03/04 06:07 AM

I bet this situation happens now and then. Sure would be a tough one, definitly an ethics issue as well as a damned if you do, damned if you don't one.



--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: AspenHill]
      #12728 - 29/03/04 04:01 AM

The more I find out about this guy, the worse it gets. He's currently being sought by at least 2 Nature Conservancies for hunting without a PH licence. He's been expelled from PHASA for those and other offenses, he's being chased for non payment of licence and trophy fees in at least 2 African countries and there seems to be an increasing number of hunters who are finding the NCs won't issue export licences for their triphies. And the bugger's still trolling round the US taking money from suckers.

Just goes to show that one has to be be so very careful who you do business with......... I'm annoyed that he's pinched a client, but I'm a hell of a lot more annoyed that he's taking so many people for a ride and making it al so much harder for us honest outfitters.

People like that need to be tied to a tree for leopard bait.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: shakari]
      #65657 - 11/11/06 02:54 AM

I would do just what I have done on internet forums in the past - I would disclose the full extent of my knowledge about the shady operator and let the prospective client proceed (or not) fully informed. There are too many crooks in the outfitting business, and we must expose them whenever possible.

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4639
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: 500grains]
      #65670 - 11/11/06 08:34 AM

I would agree with 500 grains.

I am currently involved in a similar issue with a gun dealer. How much do you say about his honesty and how much do you leave for the client/acquaintance to discover?

A serious warning of being careful should at least put out the warning bells.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 26684
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: mickey]
      #65711 - 12/11/06 04:41 AM

I think it is a pity more clients don't post hunt reports where serious negatives happen, especially if the operators have been "shady".

Of course I think on any safari things can go wrong, but swapping concessions from what was promised, not having appropriate licences, rights, access, promised animals on quota etc etc is something else. Too many clients just want to forget all about it and get on with things. Or are worred about what is thrown back at them.

I subsribe to the "Hunt Report', used to subscribe, then dropped it, and re-subscribed this year again, but have rarely seen a negative report in it. They DO HAPPEN though ie the seriously wrong hunts. And usually a lot of clients get taken until the shit builds up enough for shady operators to get the final flick!



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4639
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: NitroX]
      #65803 - 13/11/06 02:41 PM

Fifteen years ago the Hunt Report was full of bad hunt reports. Than the threat of lawsuits started. You can handle a couple, maybe a few, but at some point it is too expensive.

Caussey has his ear to the ground but can't say much anymore.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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ErikDAdministrator
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4623
Loc: Norway
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: mickey]
      #65902 - 15/11/06 07:43 AM

So in a way, the Hunt Report has become as useless as some of the internet hunt report forums, where negative reports are frowned upon?

Erik

--------------------

Cut along dotted line, discard top part.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 26684
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: ErikD]
      #65910 - 15/11/06 08:02 PM

In reply to:

Poster: ErikD
Subject: Re: what would you do if..........

So in a way, the Hunt Report has become as useless as some of the internet hunt report forums, where negative reports are frowned upon?

Erik




Posting negative reports is always difficult for the forum/website. As sometimes very quickly the operator tries to squash any negative report with legal action and it is aimed not at the poster but at the host of the website/forum.

One possible action for the website in these examples is to "moderate" hunt report forums like NitroExpress.com does, and keep the report private until the operator has had a say and reply. That way the report stays more "sane" and does not get out of control.

If they immediately resort to legal action, a public notice saying the outfitter has threatened to sue over the report could be posted instead. It is a matter of provable fact and not liable if posted publicly.

I think the honest outfitters do not quickly resort to legal action or threats as they usually have evidence to counter the allegations. As we have all seen on the net, where REAL evidence does not exist at all, all sorts of other tactics start to get used.

There was an example of an outfitter getting canned in Botswana recently where a couple of clients tried to rubbish them for over-charging, not delivering etc. The outfitter came out with good documentation, signed by the client, and all the allegations appeared to be completely false and motivated by other factors (in that case by the client wanting to be a agent for them, but were turned down). I actually assisted them in getting their documentation up on the net for everyone to see.

That outfitter probably got goodwill from the marketplace in how they handled the situation, and their honesty, and probably got some bookings as a result.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 26684
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: shakari]
      #65912 - 15/11/06 08:14 PM

Back to Steve's original question.

If an outfitter knows a competitor being considered is dishonest, not ethical, or has questionable practices, it is hard for a competing business to criticise a competitor as it might just be seen as trying to rubbish a competitor for personal gain.

What can be done?

Carefully point out things to check on the competitor, such as check references carefully, maybe provide a reference which the competitor does not (ie a negative one). That way it is a previous client doing it, not the competing outfitter.

Advise them to check if the person is licenced as a PH, for the area, country, actually has access to the proposed concession etc.

Another way, is to diplomatically point out sources of other information, such as forums, hunt reports, and other websites where such information might also be obtained.

With so many operators in the marketplace to choose from, why would anyone run the risk of blowing away a lot of money if there are serious questions.

And while it may appear difficult to the operator if they go ahead and book they can't say they weren't forewarned at least.

The other alternative is just to say nothing, and look for the next client.


***

Of course I am talking as a client and a forum host.

Any other outfitters here got any answers or experiences on this? It would be interesting to see how it would be handled or has been handled.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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iqbal
resigned as a member


Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: NitroX]
      #65914 - 15/11/06 09:41 PM

Ther was an incident I related sometime back where a PH did not have a permit for leopord yet he offered one to a client(a friend of mine)and made him sit on a bait for a few days without of course any success.During this period the client shot a few plainsgame and came back without the leopord.Later when he came to know the facts he complained to PHASA but nothing came of it.

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4639
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: iqbal]
      #66017 - 17/11/06 04:49 PM

Iqbal

That happens all the time in Canada.

Grizzly Bears are on a quota with a 50% success rate. If you have 4 Bears than to fill them some will book 8 hunters. If the quota gets filled before the the hunter shows up than he is just waltzed around , with no chance of scoring.

Sad but true.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2118
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: what would you do if.......... [Re: NitroX]
      #66024 - 17/11/06 11:56 PM

In reply to:

If an outfitter knows a competitor being considered is dishonest, not ethical, or has questionable practices,




John,
I think the important word here is "knows".
I believe it is fair to say something if the person saying it does actually know first hand, and beyond any doubt that what they are saying is absolutely true.
Over many years working in the guiding business, I've heard numerous stories about unethical/dishonest/illegal actions of others in the industry, and many of those stories were based on nothing more than rumour and heresay.
They may be true, maybe not.
I personally know of an instance where one operator was/is spreading the word far and wide about some dishonest actions of a rival operator.
I also "know" as fact that the accused operator had absolutely nothing to do with it.
In that case it was nothing more than sour grapes and professional jealousy, but throw enough mud and some will eventually stick.

I guess I don't have a problem with disclosing information regarding a dodgey operator, publicly or privately, so long as that information is "known" to be correct.

Otherwise I think it is maybe best left unsaid.
Just my 2 cents.










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