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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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fanofdbls
.224 member


Reged: 28/09/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Houston, Texas - USA
WTK: Making a Howdah double ...need some thoughts
      #65740 - 12/11/06 11:51 AM

First off, I understand that in doing this, it will require ATF approval and a $200.00 tax stamp...I am an FFL and a Class III holder and I do know how to do this! Right, I have always been a fan of the Howdah concept and thought it would be fun to put a modern spin on one. I sold a couple of guns of late and have a little "fun money" burning a hole in my pocket...I had an idea: What if I had a Howdah pistol built off of one of those Pedersoli Kodiak hammer guns in 45/70's. *I would need the stock cut down into a pistol grip and the barrel lopped off to a rather short size. I could sure use some advice on this project and would not object if someone talked me out of it!!! *I also had a thought of doing one on a test run basis on the Pedersoli muzzle loader double (would be much cheaper and you don't have to have ATF approval!). Thoughts from the Board?

Here is what the rifle looks like: http://www.rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/pedersoli_45_70/pedersoli_45_70.htm

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ....need some tho [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65747 - 12/11/06 01:14 PM

what is a howda?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

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fanofdbls
.224 member


Reged: 28/09/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Houston, Texas - USA
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ....need some tho [Re: bonanza]
      #65748 - 12/11/06 01:31 PM

ooops...sorry. A Howdah Pistol is a double barrel (s x s or over/under) rifled piece, that was first utilized in India by hunters mounted on elephants to use as a secondary weapon against tiger attacks. An example of one recently seen is on "The Ghost and the Darkness" by Remington and ultimately by Patterson as a last resort piece. *Many gunmakers of old (example: Purdey) offerred the hunter a custom Howdah for purchase. Today, they are quite collectible and sought after.

Here are a few pics.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/antique_guns/purdey_howdah/howdah.html

http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=62

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=lotdetailsNoFlash&iSaleItemNo=3370468&iSaleNo=13645&sServer=http://images1.bonhams.com/&sPath=2006-10/31/7328413-1-1.jpg

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ....need some tho [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65756 - 12/11/06 05:55 PM

fanofdbls

I say go for it. I can't offer any useful knowledge but when modern Howdahs are discussed also have wondered how a cut-off Pedersoli would go.

Questions you will no doubt find answers for if you go ahead:

Q. How well will it regulate?

As I understand it, howdahs were never for medium or long range use, just a few yards from the back of an elephant, when a tiger was climbing up on top of the elephants head and the 'long gun' was too long! So I imagine not a big problem!

Doubts have been raised on threads on rechambering Pedersolis as whether the barrels can be regulated if needed, so maybe that option won't be available.

Q. What sort of loads can be shot "comfortably" in a .45/70 howdah?

One advantage of full powered loads would be using the same ammo as in a long arm, but how controllable in a howdah would it be? Maybe the member Kamikaze has similar experience.

Q. Will the .45/70 bullets stablise in a short barrel?

Keeping the fore-grip in place may allow it still to be shot two handed somewhat.

***

Sounds like fun and a good talking piece.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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fanofdbls
.224 member


Reged: 28/09/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Houston, Texas - USA
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ....need some tho [Re: NitroX]
      #65794 - 13/11/06 09:54 AM

I received a few emails asking if I had any photos of Howdah's....here ya go!

http://i15.tinypic.com/2wdrcs2.jpg

http://i7.tinypic.com/4bxzrzn.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/34is3gj.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/4g6whug.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/2wr1cno.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/2uscu11.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/3zhpovc.jpg

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bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ....need some tho [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65805 - 13/11/06 03:51 PM

fanofdbls,
Thanks for all the pics. Nice pistols too. What is the average cost of such pistols?

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ...need some thoughts [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65922 - 16/11/06 12:33 AM

I love the idea! Wish it was me making it!!! Ive thought about it, and when I finally find the extra $$$, I think Im going to go with a muzzel loader. The start up investment is significatly cheaper, (well under $1000 vs. over $3000 for a 45-70 Kodiak), plus theres no tax stamp or government paperwork. The muzzel loader is historically correct, even if not as much "fun".

Ive debated about the various 10 and 12 gauge muzzel loader reproductions and the Pedersoli double rifle muzzel loaders. The shot guns are cheaper and more manufactures make more models. Round balls are easily avaliable as well as some slugs. I suppose if you really wanted to go all out, you could have a custom mold cut for a tight fitting conical.

The Pedersoli Rifle muzzel loaders are available in 50, 54, 58, and 72 calibers. The draw back to these are the straight stocks. Im not a "wood" guy but it seems to me for all the hassel of the tax stamp you should be able to make a new stock with a pistol grip. Then youd have a modern made historically correct gun.

Best of luck! Keep us informed!!!

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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fanofdbls
.224 member


Reged: 28/09/06
Posts: 26
Loc: Houston, Texas - USA
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ...need some thoughts [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #65926 - 16/11/06 01:58 AM

The prices of antique Howdah's are vast in range...the rifled ones are the "correct" ones and I have seen prices upward of $5K plus! * I was offered a un-rifled one a dealer at the big Tulsa gunshow that he was going a Howdah for $1,800.00 but I passed.

I have received quite a few emails in regard to this project and the general sugestion of the Board is to go ahead and purchase a Pedersoli rifled Kodiak (muzzle loader) and try that one first....say in .50cal.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3514&osCsid=79395b165a7cd9ea4323d4b1f0803674

* I am not fond of the engraving on the receiver and would really like a rich blued, case-colored look.

So....Who do I use (suggestions?), gunsmith/rifle maker, to do the work?

This was sent by one of the Board members as a modern subsitute for the 21 Century Howdah: http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 608
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ...need some thoughts [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65935 - 16/11/06 05:40 AM

Im going to agree with most what everyone has told you. As Ive said the straight stock on the Pedersoli rifled muzzle loaders would be a problem for my lack of wood working skills. If I were fixed on the Pedersoli ML, I would go with the .72 caliber but thats just a personal choice.

The Serbu pump is interesting; but again, if it were my money Id start with a 12 ga SxS with hammers. The stock is available with semi pistol grips, and that should make modifcations easier.

You can shoot factory 12 ga shot or slugs. For more traditional looks you could load ball or conicals in brass cases. When you decide that 12ga isnt powerfull enough, you can order various inserts such as 45-70 etc. from MCA Sports Chamber Inserts (mcace.com). Considering the short length you'll want his prices are very good.

The Pedersoli ML sells for about $900. A Cowboy type Coach Gun is about $300, add another $200 for the tax stamp and you still have saved enough for several sets of inserts.

Now Im thinking how much I want one!!!!!!!


--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

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jaz
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: WTK: Making a Howdah double ...need some thoughts [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #66025 - 18/11/06 12:00 AM

IMHO the standard of the Howdah's is the Wilkinson. Made in .577 Snider rifle cartridge caliber. I have thought about this project many times.
The first Howdah you showed was a 20 bore, sawhandle,smooth barrelled gun. I believe that one to be made up.
I would buy and old beater hammer gun, preferably a 28 bore, from one of the English auction houses. There are plenty there, and if the gun is out of proof, they go cheap. Then I would sleeve it to the .577 cartridge. Soemetimes the stock is even usable with alteration. Put a lanyard in the handle and yoyur ready to go.
Regulation is not necessary as by definition these were used in the Howdah when the tiger was coming in to kill you.
The Pedersoli is out for me. It must be English - period.
Good luck
JZ

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