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fanofdbls
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WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle
      #64679 - 26/10/06 11:13 AM

Next question from the "newbie" on the Board....Okay, so I have a couple of new rifles coming in and while I am no stranger to recoil from firearms, I would like to seriously try and reduce the "felt recoil" from these hunting pieces. I was hoping some of you Double Rifle experts would advise me on the best course of action. *How about: internal stock reducers; muzzle breaks; porting; rubber recoil pads, etc. The two rifles I have in mind would be: 1) Ruger 77 -375H&H and a Chapuis DR in 9.3X74R. *What overall reduction can I expect? Thank You.

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Grizzly
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: fanofdbls]
      #64685 - 26/10/06 03:37 PM

Before you do anything, shoot the rifles and see where you stand. Remember, when hunting you tend not to notice recoil or noise. Shooting off the bench is a whole different story.

I would try (and I have) a PAST shoulder recoil pad for shooting off the bench. That surprisingly helps a lot.

If you can shoot well off the bench with a cheap PAST shoulder pad, the rifle(s) probably don't need any work.

For 375, 9.3 X 74 and even 416, I personally am not bothered by either of them even off the bench sans pad. By the way, the 375 and 9.3 (366 caliber) are pretty close in their numbers.

If you need to reduce recoil after trying these simple solutions, remember three things: (1) they are your rifles, and you can do to them whatever you desire to make yourself comfortable with shooting; (2) if recoil is an issue, you won't be accurate with the rifle as with a smaller caliber (3) anything you do to the rifle in terms of recoil reduction almost always lowers the resale value.

The first modification should probably be the recoil pad. Most stock rifles have pretty crappy recoil pads. There are many great pads out there, with newer ones coming out all of the time. Unless you are dealing with something like an expensive double rifle or a high level bolt gun, replacing a recoil pad is resale neutral. I think Pachymar came out with their latest and greatest recently.

For a 375 or 9.3 X 74, that just might do the trick. A word of advice here - keep the old pads! If you find your new pad hurts the value, you can always put the old one back on.

Again, try it at the range with and without the PACT shoulder pad.

If it is still an issue, then there are alternatives like mercury recoil reducers. They work, but they also add weight to the butt and change the balance of the rifle. That works for some people. But I am one of those who like a nice balance.

And if you feel the need to use one in the 375, think long and hard about putting one into a double rifle. I would imagine that a 9.3 X 74 with a mercury recoil reducer would be an outcaste....

Know also that mercury recoil reducers don't get you points on resale, especially with calibers at the lower level of the big bores. In a 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs, there may be some forgiveness (the purists would still cry blasphemy).

If you are having a custom rifle built, the recoil reducer decision should probably be made before the rifle is built for balance and weight purposes.

Just my 2 cents.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: fanofdbls]
      #64688 - 26/10/06 04:39 PM

If you are new to big bores limit the amount of shooting from a bench. Shoot them first just off-hand at simple targets even if not sighted in.

Use some padding when sighting in or building up handloads.

If you need to, try sighting them in standing up with a rest, rather than shooting from a bench or hunched over. Your body will have more whip and flexibility standing up.

One way to reduce the perceived recoil of your rifles is to have a go at shooting something larger before shooting your own rifles. The 9.3mm will feel soft after you shoot the .375 for example. I think you will find the 9.3 double quite comfortable in comparison depending on how light or heavy the double is. If you have a mate with a .458 or similar see if he can bring that out, only fire a shot or two.

When I started shooting a .375 I found the recoil quite hard especially if shooting around 20 rounds at a time. After getting used to a .450 it feels soft. The 9.3 feels very light now.

Take along your medium calibre rifle and shoot that in between the bigger bores. If you think you might start developing a flinch, give up for the day, or take a rest from shooting them.

When you use them on game you probably won't even notice the recoil . So in my opinion, within limits, recoil is more in the mind than the body. However having said that, if you shoot a number of shots from a big bore, your body will feel the effects afterwards.

If you feel the recoil is getting to you, try making up some lower powered loads eg for your .375. Get comfortable with shooting the rifle.

A good recoil pad is important.

I don't like porting and especially don't like muzzle brakes as I value my hearing more than the alternative.

Don't know anything about internal recoil reducers.


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hoppdoc
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: NitroX]
      #64704 - 26/10/06 10:08 PM

In addition to the excellent advise above, try shooting erect with shooting sticks so your upper body can move with the recoil.That helps substantially.

As stated, with some miinor changes you may find you need no further assistance.

When in the field shooting game I must say that I can barely remember the recoil from a big bore when shooting "hot blooded". Yoy may note the same.

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Double_Trouble
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: NitroX]
      #64705 - 26/10/06 10:56 PM

I have shot a number of larger cals ( 500 and above ) some of them have had internal reducers (mercury surpressors) in the stock and although they certainly dont help in the balance department, they do take up some energy thereby making the recoil more tolerable. i have also shot larger calibers with gas springs pocketed in the stock, these work fairly well adding little weight but require stock and butt plate mods that i fear would be detrimental to many of the guns value and asthetics that are discussed and collected on this forum.

the guns i mention above are not my own and i doubt that i would consider adding the mercury to any gun i own, having said that, when i shoot, i prefer to stand using a steady rest or shooting stick for the reasons mentioned by NitroX and for a more realistic "practice" as you rarely get to sit at a bench with a padded rest whilst in the field. (unless you are Juan Carlos ripping into boozed up bears)

It's been two years since i had my rotator cuff rebuilt in my shooting shoulder and i am somewhat leary about putting a 700 up and squeezing the trigger but i would have no problem firing 458's and 375's for 10 or 15 rounds from a standing position. still gets a little ouchy for the next day but its all part of the experience.

i should mention that the final straw on my shoulder was not from firing but i am sure that shooting was a contributiing factor

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fanofdbls
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #64736 - 27/10/06 07:27 AM

Thank You for the great information. I do want to state that I specifically purchased the Chapuis to be used as my primary hunting rifle. I will use the piece atleast on 15 outings per year. I want to be 100% comfortable and do indeed want to reduce the overall recoil of the piece.....that being said, I am not worried about re-sale value and the reduction of the rifles worth. So...may I ask another question and see what needs to be done to get the job done? I do see you guys point on "balance" though. Cheers.

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clark7781
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: fanofdbls]
      #64740 - 27/10/06 08:07 AM

The chapuis you are buying won't kick that bad. Bolt trash in the same caliber will be worse.

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hoppdoc
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: clark7781]
      #64745 - 27/10/06 08:57 AM

I agree that the Chapuis won't kick that bad.

Muzzlebreak on a DR--NO WAY!!

Mercury reducers-screw up the balance and handling

A good recoil pad and PACT pad will help immensely-try this first and see what you tolerate.

Past that your left with weird shotgun tricks like Gracoil "shock absorber units" hung off the butt of the stock that compress and prolong the recoil stroke.Don't know if that will even work with a Double.

If you can't handle the recoil of the 9.3 DR with a recoil pad and PACT pad you may just need to go to a smaller caliber.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: fanofdbls]
      #64746 - 27/10/06 09:19 AM

I would like to seriously try and reduce the "felt recoil"

The only way to do that is a muzzle brake. However, both of your rifles are not that easy to do. The double is obvious and the Ruger will have issues with the front sight and band.

Magnaporting could be done to either rifle. Magnaporting creates an illusion for the first couple of shots that the recoil has been reduced a fair bit. However, for hunting that is OK since you are not firing a lot of shots. But remember that once Magnaported you can't unmagnaport unless you cut some off the barrel or barrels

Personally, I think your best bet is to follow some of the advice above and leave the rifles as they are until you have at least played around a bit with them. In general I would put the 30/06 wth max 180 grain loads and the 375 in the same general group for recoil. For sure the 375 kicks more but they are in the same group with the 30/06 at the lower end and the 375 at the upper end.

Over many years I have seen a lot of people take up the 375 and the only ones who had problems were those shooters who did not really like big bores, that is, the simply had more interest in faster an smaller bullets.

It is for good reason that the 375 totally dominates the big bores and recoil is the reason. Once you move much above 375 you are into another recoil class. Recoil above the 375 normally means making some concessions to recoil such as the position the rifle can be shot from etc. or adding a muzzle brake.

Overwhelming opinion and experience strongly suggests that unless someone has some type of injury or disability, then the 375 does not need any recoil reduction methods and can be shot in the same manner as a 30/06 would be used but of course for less shots.

The above is also backed up by what Weatherby sell. The 300 and 340 Wby are in the same class of recoil as the 375 and in standard form Weatherby sells those two without a muzzle brake. However, all of the calibres that are based on the 378 case come standard with muzzle brake.

So in a nutshell the odds and also history are totally on your side in terms of being able to use the 375 without any problems and without having to resort to recoil reducing add ons. Initially, if you have any difficutlies then it should be a matter of looking at how you are shooting or perhaps easing into the guns with lighter loads etc. Again, overwhelming opinion and experience strong suggest that one way or the other you should be able to finish up using the 375 without and recoil reducing add ons.

Mike

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bulldog563
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #64749 - 27/10/06 10:24 AM

Stock fit is the most important IMO.

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Yogi000
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: bulldog563]
      #65003 - 01/11/06 06:57 AM

Great info provided to you so.

Agree that a double is NOT a bench gun, nor it is of much value to "test" it out on a bench to "see where she shoots"... Must be held in the hands.

The first time I shot a big double I made sure I was wearing a quality shooting jacket with heavy padding. It made a world of difference. Actually I wore TWO.

Shooting the guns before you do anything is sage advice. Plus, shoot lower weight boolits and lower powder if possible. So much depends on the charge and weight of the boolit you are shooting out of those guns.

Plus, the first day of shooting can be deceptive. It is a wise idea to use the first day just to familiarize yourslef with the gun and definitely shoot standing or with a brace up front but definitely with your front hand holding the gun. Don't make any rash conclusions. Let a day or 2 go by and shoot the gun again. I have done this on a few occasions and 'discovered' my first impressions were NOT always right. I needed to marinade with the gun. Felt recoil for me is often LESS on subsequent days than it is the very first time I shoot a big gun.

If you find you need to reduce the felt recoil there are very good after market pads like the Pachmayr Decelerator, 1 inch thick.

Also, although balance is effected, try Edward's Recoil Reducers. I think they dramatically reduced felt recoil in my double.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65082 - 02/11/06 06:49 AM

The answer to your question is that double rifles aren't bolt rifles. Recoil-wise, they are what they are when they leave the maker, and recoil reduction "improvements" are usually offset by equal detriment.

With double rifles, it's all in the geometry, weight, and fit - all impact "felt" recoil. The greater the recoil, the more important good fit becomes. Stocks can be bent, wood removed where necessary, and recoil pads added or changed. Correct LOP is much more critical than with a light rifle. If recoil is a problem for you, engage a professional fitter and have your stocks altered accordingly. If your double rifle still kicks too hard for you, you got the wrong one. Sell it, and try again.

A modest difference in weight usually makes a dramatic difference in felt recoil. A 10 lb .470 can be unpleasant at the bench. A 10 3/4 lb .470 is much more pleasant to shoot, but it had better have been built to BE a 10 3/4 lb rifle, or it will swing like a Hoover. I've shot quite a few doubles with recoil reducers installed, and am absolutely convinced that they work solely by virtue of the added weight. If there is any other magic, it would take someone much more sensitive to recoil than I to discover it. The wonderful handling dynamics of a good quality double rifle are 80% of what a fine double rifle IS. Shoving a mercury reducer up it's ass murders it.

In today's market, the UGEX 9.3 Chapuis is the best bargain there is. They're really nice rifles for the money. However, they're usually within a couple ounces of 7 1/4 lbs, which is 1 1/2 lbs too light. So, yeah, it may sting a little from the bench, but it won't bother you in the field at all. Make sure LOP is right for you, add a good pad, and leave it alone.

A double rifle has two barrels, but it's still a rifle. Like any other, if you want to get the most from it, you must spend the time at the bench - there is no other way. If you can't handle it well from the bench, you probably won't handle it well in the field either.
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butchloc
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #65085 - 02/11/06 07:34 AM

there are a couple of other ways first would be to sneak up behind a nice big ele. or buff, kick it in the rear then run and shoot. guaranteed not to feel a bit of recoil 2nd would be to let the wife know how much it cost after the beating recoil will feel like nothing

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Shanster
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: butchloc]
      #65103 - 02/11/06 11:07 AM

LMAO
Double rifle= divorce in a Box

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hoppdoc
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: Shanster]
      #65104 - 02/11/06 11:28 AM

Double Rifles--

To avoid divorce you must obtain MANY rifles, then sell them off to get that one Double!!

This way you have less guns and she may think that Double is really just a double shotgun!!

Unfortunately it doesn't work when she knows about hunting and wants some more furniture for the house or a new car!



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/11/06 11:29 AM)

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bigdog
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: hoppdoc]
      #65114 - 02/11/06 02:43 PM

Hopdoc,
This method does work. I have proof. I got a 700 nitro and now have a 4 bore double comming and I am alive to tell about it. The wifes beating are starting to subside, a little!!

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Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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zimhunter
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65308 - 05/11/06 04:56 AM

I cannot for the life of me understand the reluctance to use whatever means you must to reduce recoil punishment to a comfortable level. One of the best and most favorite of all the doubles I have owned was a Chapuis UGEX 9.3x74R. It had recoil that was to me only describable as viscious. In order to acheive this 'PERFECT' balance with the slim 21" barrels the buttstock was almost hollow not easily allowing for a mercury reducer. It went in a trade several years ago and I miss the gun but not the recoil. My 470 Merkel was almost comfortable to shoot but also had a solid steel rod in the drawbolt hole to add weight and compenstae for the heavy barrels I suppose. I just took delivery of a new Merkel in 8x57R and it is really nice and light. Short slim barrels and balance is perfect, but if recoil is not comfortable to shoot I will first install a Pachmeyer Decellerator pad and if that does not produce the desired reduction in felt recoil I will put a mercury reducer in the drawbolt hole. A gun that is not comfortable to shoot is worthless to me no matter who produced it or what it is. To me a gun is the ultimate tool, while I like good looks if you cannot stand to shoot it ,it is just so much wood and steel and while pleasing to look at is no longer useful as a tool.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65314 - 05/11/06 06:04 AM

In reply to:

The two rifles I have in mind would be: 1) Ruger 77 -375H&H and a Chapuis DR in 9.3X74R.



The two rifles and chamberings you selected, need little more than a good recoil pad. Neither of them are hard kickers, and if the rifle fits you, they should do fine with Pachmayr Decellorator recoil pads!

I'm not one to use Murcury recoil inserts in a double rifle, no matter the recoil. IMO, the extra weight in the butt stock throws the ballance off! Changeing the way a double rifle recoils somethimes destroys the regulation of the rifle! The recoil, and muzzle flip is a great part of the regulation of a double rifle. The more recoil the rifle developes, the more disturbing the muzzle flip henders regulation!

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400NitroExpress
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: zimhunter]
      #65315 - 05/11/06 06:43 AM

"Chapuis UGEX 9.3X74R"..."vicious"..."if you cannot stand to shoot it"...

I cannot for the life of me understand how a reasonably healthy adult male with any DR experience at all could be bothered enough by the recoil of a 9.3 double to find it difficult to use. I've shot the Chapuis in 9.3. Sure, it kicks a little. It's underweight, and it isn't a .22. I could understand your comments relative to, say, a poorly stocked .470, an underweight .500 or some such, but a 9.3? That's beyond The Pale. Perhaps the step down to your new small bore is what you need.

Heavy caliber double rifles kick some, and recoil begins at .450 - that's the trade off for power, but it's nothing a normal adult can't become accustomed to with ease with a well - built gun, up to about .470 anyway. If you don't understand the relationship between handling dynamics and after market recoil reduction schemes, or the impact of handling dynamics on the utility of a double rifle as the specialized tool that it is, then you don't understand double guns very well. I'd rather get kicked than tolerate a DR that has all the handling qualities of a creosote corner post.
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zimhunter
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #65319 - 05/11/06 08:51 AM

I'm really sorry that I don't understand the specifics of recoil but then I don't understand the preference some people have for strawberrry ice cream or why some people require more pain killer than others . I think it's the heigth of egotism for someone to tell me what MY tolerance for pain is. As to knowledge of firearms I have been a gunsmith for over 50 years (school trained) and probably owned 15 double rifles from 8mm thru 470. I DO NOT like recoil and see no earthly reason to contend with it if I don't have to. For some reason the double rifle seems to make some people believe it is a living thing that cannot be criticised by a mere mortal and under no circumstance can it be changed from it's original configuration especially if it is of English origin. I for one don't hold to this belief. Sorry to have offended the sensibilities of some of the readers with my views.

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hoppdoc
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: zimhunter]
      #65322 - 05/11/06 09:41 AM

Recoil and the nature of recoil is a very personal thing.

As one ages the tolerance for recoil goes down.Arthritic changes in the A-C joint and tendonitis in the musculature of the shoulder can make shooting a 270 intolerable.It happens.

I have just acquired a 416 Rigby that is nasty in the recoil department primarily due to a drop at the comb like a lever action.It is getting restocked.I don't like getting smacked in the cheek.

I don't mind being pushed backward but having my cheek smacked by an upward recoiling gun is taboo. A stock with the right comb height helps considerable. I have restocked most of my big boomers.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: zimhunter]
      #65323 - 05/11/06 09:58 AM

Amazing.
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bonanza
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: fanofdbls]
      #65327 - 05/11/06 11:35 AM

Physics to the rescue!

To reduce felt recoil you need to reduce recoil. A standard .375 with a 300 grain bullet churs out 4300 ft/lbs at 43 lbs of recoil in a 9 lbs rifle. Drop the bullet weight to 270 flying along at 2500fps reduces the recoil by 17% and energy only 12%

This exactly what I do in my .375 double. I really feel can the difference.



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fanofdbls
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double R [Re: bonanza]
      #65343 - 05/11/06 02:50 PM

I thank EVERYONE for their response....I am truely appreciative and will take much of the advice as given. I am new to DR's and am learning with every post.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: WTK: Reducing "Felt Recoil" from your Double Rifle [Re: zimhunter]
      #65414 - 07/11/06 10:34 AM

In reply to:

I'm really sorry that I don't understand the specifics of recoil but then I don't understand the preference some people have for strawberrry ice cream or why some people require more pain killer than others . I think it's the heigth of egotism for someone to tell me what MY tolerance for pain is.



Zimhunter I have to agree with you that your tolerance for pain is a very personal thing, and nobody else can tell you what hurts you, and what doesn't.

However, I don't think that was what anyone is doing! The dynamics of recoil are the same for everyone, and the cost of what is done to relieve the recoil can be better or worse, depending what you do to change it! The fact is, it is a little surprising when talking of double rifles to discribe a 9.3X74R as "vicious" when discribing it's recoil, even in a very light Chapuis. I'd never have thought someone without a serious enjury, would need a Murcury reducer. That is the reason I didn't reccomend it for either of those two rifles. On the 375 H&H bolt rifle it have no effect on the rifle, but the potentual for disruption of regulation in a very light double does exist, and I would be remiss to not say so, to someone asking about that! Don't you think?

In reply to:

As to knowledge of firearms I have been a gunsmith for over 50 years (school trained) and probably owned 15 double rifles from 8mm thru 470. I DO NOT like recoil and see no earthly reason to contend with it if I don't have to.




I agree whole heartedly, that is your choice, as it should be!

In reply to:

For some reason the double rifle seems to make some people believe it is a living thing that cannot be criticised by a mere mortal and under no circumstance can it be changed from it's original configuration especially if it is of English origin. I for one don't hold to this belief.




I agree again, some do hold English doubles as nothing short of God's own invention, and any change is sin, and a double rifle made in any other country is automaticlly inferior! I don't hold that view either.

I see to the collector this could be the case, but to me a double rifle is simply the best designed rifle for certain purposes, nothing more, and I couldn't care less who's name is engraved on it,or what country is made in, as long as it is what I want. Senseable changes like the proper mounting of a QD scope on some doubles only makes sense, and if done properly, is not blastphemy to me, but an inhancement.

50 yrs of gunsmithing doesn't make anyone an expert on double rifles, and their idiocyncrcies. I know several well known gun smiths who build some of the best bolt rifles I've ever seen, but they know crap about double rifles, and they wouldn't lay a hand on one of mine! However, haveing owned 15 double rifles from 8mm to 470NE, and being recoil shy,you know something noone else knows, or you have been very lucky, indeed, if you have placed Murcury reducers in them without a problem with regulation, and/or balance!

In reply to:

Sorry to have offended the sensibilities of some of the readers with my views.



I don't think anyone's sensibilities were offended for reason, or percieved reason, other than your's! It seems you percieved DISAGREEMENT, with you as a afront to your opinion, and they may have been meant that way, but that wasn't the way I read the comments.

If mine were disconcerting to you, or if this post has somehow stepped on your toes, then I'm very sorry about that! I simply don't see the problem, however!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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