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Otto
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Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Paradox bore specs?
      #64387 - 21/10/06 10:55 PM

I need the bore specs for a W/R Explora or other 12g paradox gun. Bore diameter? Length, depth, and twist of rifling? Gonna build a paradox and don't want to reinvent what the Brits figured out a hundred years ago. Thanks...

Otto

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Paradox bore specs? [Re: Otto]
      #64389 - 22/10/06 12:58 AM


Have you read Graeme Wrights book ?

He has a chapter on Paradox's and of the 8 or so guns measured they were all different.

It would suggest that Shotguns and Paradox's were the same in that they didn't all leave the factory at .729 (for a 12 Gauge).

Ask Holland's ?

500 Nitro

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Paradox bore specs? [Re: Otto]
      #64391 - 22/10/06 01:30 AM

Otto,
The "standard" bore diameter, if there is one seems to be .734/.735. The original rifling was 7 groove but Holland changed to 9 sometime around 1910. A recent article by Ross S. suggests that there may be variations to this. This is ratchet rifling. It is this rifling that allows the beautiful patterning of the paradox while still being able to shoot as a double rifle.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Otto
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Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Paradox bore specs? [Re: gatsby]
      #64428 - 22/10/06 10:45 PM

Good info, fellows. I forgot about the Paradox chapter in Wright's book. I'll also look for the Seyfried article in DGJ. Presume this was his Faunetta piece. Need to do more homework. Thanks

Otto

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Paradox bore specs? [Re: Otto]
      #64442 - 23/10/06 01:49 AM

Consider that some of the Westley Richards Fauneta guns and the J&W Tolley Ubique, although very similar in function to the Paradox, did not have rifling in the classic "lands and grooves" sense. They employed oval-bore rifling like the Lancaster, but only out at the muzzles which also worked very nicely as a choke for the shot charge.

I'd really like to get some cerrosafe castings of the muzzle ends of Tolley Ubique and smooth-tubed WR Fauneta guns.
If anyone here owns a Tolley Ubique or a Fauneta with the smooth chokes, speak up. I'd happily have some Cerrosafe drop-shipped to you for this purpose.


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
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Re: Paradox bore specs? [Re: tinker]
      #64444 - 23/10/06 02:22 AM

I would be highly suspect of any Westley not having Fosberry style rifling as Westley bought into the Holland system both literally and figurativly.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2481
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Re: Paradox bore specs? [Re: gatsby]
      #64447 - 23/10/06 02:55 AM

Otto,

Chapter 9 of Wal Winfers British Single Shot Rifles Volume 5 Holland and Holland has a good deal of history on the Paradox Cartridges including copies of some original notes on development.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (23/10/06 02:58 AM)

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: gatsby]
      #64457 - 23/10/06 06:41 AM

I think it's on page 146 of Wright's book, Seyfreid also speaks of it somewhere...

Not all WR ball/shot guns show land/groove rifling. The earlier guns had 'invisible' type rifled chokes.


Perhaps this distinction is only with the Explora guns and not the Fauneta.
I'd like to know more myself


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: tinker]
      #64522 - 24/10/06 03:02 AM

Tinker,
There have been several Westley's come to auction the last couple of years with altered chocks. I don't know what system of rifling early Westley ball and shot guns may have used or what experimental systems may have been tried but the Explora, Super Mag Explora and I suspect the Fauneta were rifled chock guns using the L.T. bullet giving velocities of 1300 to 1500fps and great shotgun patterning. I would still be suspect of any not showing ratchet rifling.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: gatsby]
      #64549 - 24/10/06 09:23 AM

Westley may used the invisible type rifling untill the H&H patent ran out in 1906, but they changed after that. The invisible rifling guns could not throw shot worth a dam. There were variations between Paradox and Explora ratchet rifling as well. One is more shallow than the other.
Good luck building the barrels. I would be interested to know how they came out. I do have the Fosberry patent info, but Holland deviated some from this.
JZ

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: gatsby]
      #64580 - 24/10/06 02:39 PM


The Super Magnum Explora had Rachet Rifling and used the LT bullet or at least the one I sold last year had it. The gun was made by (or named) as a William Evans.

500 Nitro

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gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: 500Nitro]
      #64587 - 24/10/06 04:43 PM

Yes, a damn nice gun and beautifully engraved!

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: gatsby]
      #64598 - 25/10/06 06:46 AM


Gatsby

My memory is not good - are you the person who emailed
me from the US re THAT gun ?

500 Nitro

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: 500Nitro]
      #64603 - 25/10/06 07:42 AM

Yes,I still have a photo file.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: gatsby]
      #64604 - 25/10/06 07:52 AM

Gatsby-

Do you own an Explora or Fauneta?
I'm truly interested in getting ahold of choke castings of these ball/shot guns. Your comments on rachet rifling got my attention. I'd happily accept castings of rachet-rifled-choke guns!




--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: tinker]
      #64608 - 25/10/06 09:21 AM

Send me A pm with your E-mail address

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 629
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: tinker]
      #64612 - 25/10/06 11:21 AM

Tinker,
I have a super magnum william evans, with rachet rifling and could do a cast also. Who were you thinking of having cut the barrells? Dan Peterson comes to mind. Another interesting aspect of the paradox barrels is the swamped affect in the barrel profiling. It must be key the getting a proper handeling gun. An interesting thread. I've just purchased my gun and am interested in working up some loads for the old girl. Its a shame such a lady actually apears to possibly be a true virgin. If not, she has seen very little use. Fun stuff.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: bouldersmith]
      #64621 - 25/10/06 12:36 PM

Wow that sounds great-

Do you know what your bore specs are?
I'd think the bores are cylinder on the way to the muzzles -- are they?
Yes I'm thinking of him to do a set of barrels. I've talked to his shop mate a couple of times on the subject of having bore rifle barrels made.

Where are you located?
Have you ever handled cerrosafe casting metal before?
Taking castings with it is a snap.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: bouldersmith]
      #64640 - 25/10/06 03:19 PM

Bouldersmith,
What are your bores and what is the weight of your gun?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 629
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: gatsby]
      #64649 - 25/10/06 09:28 PM

I use cero safe on a regular basis in my shop. I also spoke with Dan about makeing bore rifle barrels. I actually had someone else cut them, but only do to time factor. I have all the parts to build a 12 bore double rifle...just too many projects going at the moment....like a couple of big bore falling block actions...my Gibbs baby farky, etc. I just havent had time to begin building my double yet. When I say I just purchased my super Magnum, I have not even measured the bore yet. Loading for it will be a winter time project. Its hunting season right now and those bird dogs are giving my the evil eye...I'm off to Montana with them next week. I'll se If I can bring the super magnum to work this week and measure it up, make a casting. I think the Raj might be happy to know the old girl is going to get out and take something next year. Good guns are great fun.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: bouldersmith]
      #64651 - 25/10/06 10:42 PM

Fantastic!

Who did your bore rifle barrels?
I'm excited at the possibility of getting actual casts of that gun.
Thanks for even considering it.


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: tinker]
      #64660 - 26/10/06 02:04 AM

I just got some cerrosafe(sp). I am going to cast my Drilling so I will practice on my Faunetta also.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: mickey]
      #64662 - 26/10/06 02:30 AM

Mick-

Couple things on casting technique.

Get two pots of water going.
One for the double boiler, one for the barrels.

I've done scores of cerrosafe castings, and have found that it's very important to have the barrels up to temperature in order to get a good finish on the casting metal.
Casting into cold steel, even room temperature, will quickly freeze the casting metal before it gets a chance to pick up consistent bore features.
If you're using a funnel, preheat it too.

Also.
Although the metal is re-usable, be careful about what you're melting it in. It's easy to pick up metals and change the alloy of the cerrosafe, changing it's flow and melting temperature.
I use a clean pyrex measuring cup, nice too in that it's got a spout.


Did you get the big brick of metal?
If so and you have enough, may I have a casting of your rifle-choke and a bit of bore?
I'd be happy to pay.








--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: mickey]
      #64751 - 27/10/06 10:29 AM

Mickey,

Would love to see some pictures of your Faunetta if you get a chance.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 629
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: bore specs, WR earlier vs later [Re: tinker]
      #64857 - 29/10/06 10:39 AM

Tinker,
I have been busy at the shop and with 2 feet of snow that fell at my house this week. No chance yet to do the casting of the choke area. I brought home my Stan Baker bore gauge and the super magnum bore specs out at .733" in both tubes, which is a little tighter than what seems to be the average bore on these old guns. It should be an adventure getting this thing to shoot. I know a few places to hunt whitetails......oh boy could this be fun! I'll try to get the casting done soon.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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