Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: RB Rodda 16-bore DR

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
RB Rodda 16-bore DR
      #64142 - 17/10/06 04:00 AM

Dear experts,

greetings from Finland.

I ran into this forum some time ago while searching through the internet for information on ‘homemade’ SxS doubles, and now my registration was finally accepted. I’m one of those unfortunate, who consider a side by side double to be the one and only true hunting rifle, but who really can’t afford one in the foreseeable future. A somewhat pathetic substitute for that condition is of course to collect good literature as well as every available piece of information on these magnificent big bores, and then live on by daydreaming…

The reason for this message, however, is not related to building a rifle. I need your help in another issue. I decided to try this forum before sending personal letters to some famous names in this field.

A friend of mine is a long time firearm collector with an extensive collection of hundreds of hunting guns and rifles. Mainly he collects Finnish rifles and shotguns but he also has some interesting examples of various foreign arms. In the 80s or early 90s he purchased a 16-bore RB Rodda double rifle from Holland & Holland in London. The rifle is No. 1093, and both tubes are rifled – so not a cape rifle.

SxS doubles are quite rare in Finland. We’ve had that… how should I put it… well… miserable .308 and .30-06 tradition with Sako and Tikka rifles. Yes, they are well made, accurate and reliable, I admit, but to my mind all bolt action rifles are basically military equipment… and with those particular cartridges I consider them to be merely spiritless steel tubes screwed on a plank. And still I use them for lack of anything better.

Back to the topic… As side-by-sides are rarely seen or used here, I’m planning to write an article on that particular Rodda double to one of our national firearm magazines, and for that purpose I am trying to gather every piece of information on that rifle. I shouldn’t have difficulties with the technical writing, but in historical sense the value of the article would be totally different if I was able to trace at least something from the manufacturer’s records on that particular rifle. So, the key point in my message is that:

Do any of you guys know if the RB Rodda records or ledgers are still around somewhere, or, do you know anybody, who could help me with this, but who is not available here in this forum?

I have collected the basic historical information on the manufacturer RB Rodda, but if you happen to have good references at hand, I would be more than happy to receive something from those sources too. Quotes from the text (scanned or written) would be great. Please let me know, if you have something, and I will PM my email address to you. Surely personal comments are also very welcome from all of you, who are in one way or another familiar with Rodda and their products.

I want to say already at this point that I will definitely make sure that I won’t publish anything without properly referring to the bibliographic information of the source (I’m a scientist and therefore used to compiling proper reference lists in the end of all my writings…).

Regarding the original Rodda records the situation may be hopeless from the very beginning, since even the H&H didn’t provide anything to my friend when he bought the rifle, but I just HAVE TO try this before I take the easy road and write only about the body but not about the soul of this piece of weaponry.

With best regards,

Sakari Mykrä

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #64146 - 17/10/06 04:23 AM

sakmyk


The Rodda company still exists in Calcutta, India though these days they do not make guns or sell them. They still have a license to make and deal in guns but the owners are in the textile trade. I tried talking to them to offer a copy of the company's records to the Birmingham Proof House through the owner of this website who is a descendant, on his mother's side, from the original owners of Rodda, but did not succeed.

Please post pictures here and knowledgeable members would help you. You could also post pictures on the other site - it is an official forum of the British gun trade with several histories and records in it's Historical Database. You won't find a more knowledgeable group of people on this subject than on both these sites.

Congratulations on a fantastic gun and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #64150 - 17/10/06 05:37 AM

Sakari-
Welcome to NitroExpress!
Please post some images of that rifle.

I own two sixteen bore double rifles, and have considered buying one Rodda 16b double rifle which was for sale here on the west coast of the US.

I might be able to dig up some records on that particular gun, it was a highly ornate centerfire gun, cased with ivory handled tools.

Mehul, while on the chase for that Rodda I stumbled upon my Tolley. The Tolley is partially responsible for derailing my efforts to get the Rodda.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #64172 - 17/10/06 04:48 PM

Thank You for welcoming me to this great forum, and many thanks for this information.

I've googled my way to the ICG site a couple of times but being this poor, I have been scared away by that subscription fee. Now I'm definitely going to register there. I just have to wait a few weeks to get my paycheck, so that I'm able to do that...

It will also take some time before I'm able to post images of the Rodda. My friend lives some 200 km away, and I'll visit him in a month or so, to get the rifle in closer inspection. It's been years since I handled the rifle, and I've forgotten almost all the details.

I will keep you posted, and meanwhile I welcome all the additional information. Of course, you will be able to tell much more only after you've seen the images, but as I said, that'll take a while.

Regards,
Saku



Edited by sakmyk (17/10/06 05:58 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Raff
.300 member


Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #64225 - 18/10/06 01:10 PM

Sakari
Yes, please post some photos, you might just find out
more information from folks around here.

Tinker;
Your prospective 16 Rodda with the Ivory toys......
Purdey thumb lever, Oak/Leather case, engraved one end
to the other by any chance?
Raff

--------------------
.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: Raff]
      #64228 - 18/10/06 01:48 PM

Raff-

Would I find your number somewhere in my journal among my notes on that thing?
I have a good sense we're talking about the same gun.

Have you seen my cased Mahillon two barrel set?
It's very nice, not quite as over-the-top as your Rodda. I still covet that rifle, although I'm thankful that you turned me on to the Tolley deal. You should post some images and the story of the Rodda here.

I can't wait to see photos of this Rodda Sakari speaks of!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #64238 - 18/10/06 04:45 PM

I guess I'll be able to provide those photos within a few weeks.

As I recall, this rifle wasn't any fancy exemplar of engraving art... more of a tool-like item. It was with a case, though.

If the case is original, or not, that I don't know yet. BTW, can the trade label be considered to be reliable proof of authenticity of the case (bearing in mind that the rifle was purchased from a respectable dealer)?

Regards,
Saku

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #64256 - 19/10/06 12:57 AM

Reproduction case labels are available, they've been available for generations.

The case for my Mahillon two barrel set has without doubt contained my Mahillon and it's kit through the twentieth century, the label in the case has been present with the firearm affixed to the inside of the lid.

The label is a Greener label though, and Graeme Greener notes that the case (and my rifle too for that matter) aren't Greener products.

Might my gun have been brokered through Greener at some point, perhaps through the Paris shop some time in the late 19th Century?
Who knows?
I've done quite a bit of writing and calling around the world to many who'd be some authority on the subject, and have come up with little to no results on that particular issue with my rifle's kit.

This link will get you to Alain's work on my gun via his site, Littlegun. A label, even one that's been with the gun in a case for generations isn't proof of who made it or who it was made for, nor does it necessarily prove that the case is original, and that doesn't need to be such a bad thing. In the case of my Mahillon, it just makes things more interesting to me.
http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20m%20o/a%20mahillon%20gb.htm


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #66784 - 11/12/06 11:07 AM

Finally I had time to visit my friend to see the Rodda I mentioned above. Fortunately he was willing to give it to me for a closer inspection for a few weeks. The rifle was actually much nicer than I remembered.

I reckon this is going to be a short post - I'm far from being any kind of web-wizard, and I've now been tangled in FTPs, SSHs, URLs etc. etc. for a few hours now... It's 2:00 a.m. and I'll just send this...

I took some preliminary photos of the rifle. I made maybe fifteen or twenty 30-60kB images. I won't attach them here, but they SHOULD be in my "homepage".

So, if you are interested, please, visit the site to see the images and also read what I requested in the initial post of this thread. Mehul already told us that the Rodda records are not available. That's a pity, of course, but I'm positive that You guys can help me with this greatly. Every piece of information is welcome.

I'll post this to the IGC also as soon as I able to, but it is definitely not tonight.

I have some specific technical questions for You, but now its not time for them either... Well let's take that back... Here's the first one: What is the idea of stalking safeties that can be engaged into half-cocked hammers, but not into fully cocked. If You check out the last three pictures in the Page2 of the link above, You see what I mean. It is really so that safeties can be pushed forward when hammers are in the half cock position, but in that case the hammers cannot be fully cocked nor lowered to their forward position.

I've thought that the purpose of hammer intercepting stalking safeties is to enable carrying of a cocked hammer rifle while stalking. When the game is close, the safety slides could then silently be moved to fire position. This is obviously not true with this rifle. Only thing that I can figure out is that this system has something to do with the fact that the hammers in this rifle are not rebounding, and the sliding interceptors are used to secure the loading and unloading.

Regards,
Saku

Edited by sakmyk (11/12/06 04:47 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #66827 - 12/12/06 02:56 AM

What a cool rifle!

Purdey action, loaded chamber indicators, stalking safeties, nice little flip sight setup...
Looks like the left barrel has straight rifling, the right with slow twist.

And three and a half drams?
Whoo-golly, that thing's going to sing.
Load up some roundball and shoot the thing!
Actually, I'd have the wood off it first and take a peek at the head of the stock, look closely for gaps or cracks.
The barrels look to be in good shape, have you closely inspected the barrel-to-rib connection?
I doubt those ribs are loose, but it deserves a look.
Is the action tight and on face?





--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #66835 - 12/12/06 04:45 AM

Thanks for your reply Tinker.

It was my photographing that made the left barrel look like that. Camera is set closer to the bore axis of the right barrel, and it then shows the left bore more "from the side". Both barrels have the same rate of twist. Rate seems to be approximately a one quarter turn along the length of the barrels, but I didn't measure the barrel length yet. Now the gun is in the safe, and I have other things to do, but within a few days I'll share all the measurements and technical data with You all, if You're interested.

Action is tight on face, and the soldering of the ribs seem to be OK as well. However, there actually is a clear crack at the wrist, and also a loose chip of wood in front of the right hammer. So, no shooting with this rifle yet.

Do any of you have any ideas about the stalking safety issue (see my last post above)?

Another question: There is an "M.S." in the butt plate load data after the 3½ drams. What does those letters stand for? I guess the drams for BP measurements are 'avoirdupois', but why the M.S.?

Regards,
Saku

Edited by sakmyk (12/12/06 04:51 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #66852 - 12/12/06 06:57 PM

The stalking safeties sound right to me.
They'll keep the hammers from getting snagged and dropped on the strikers

One advantage of the hammer gun is that it can be cocked silently, by depressing the trigger while thumbing the hammer back to just past full cock, then after letting the trigger back, setting the tumbler's notch down on the sear.

Get that stock fixed and shoot the rifle!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #66853 - 12/12/06 08:11 PM

sakmyk:
The "MS" is the second part of the shortened word DRms, for drams. Like Wm for William, or ALEXr for Alexander. (the abbreviated letters are in super-script format of course: not sure how to do that here!)

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #66900 - 13/12/06 08:11 AM

Thanks Tinker, that makes perfect sense what you said about the stalking safeties. A couple of days ago, as I wanted to learn more about this kind of safety system particularly in hammer guns, I searched through all the discussions to find out what there is about stalking safeties. In the 'Making your own double rifle' thread someone said that by using those stalking safeties "the rifle can be carried with the hammers cocked" i.e. just like any hammerless double gun with a "common" safety system.

Hence the astonishment as I found out that on this Rodda the safeties can be engaged only when the hammers are half cocked.

I also agree what you said about silent cocking - I use levergun (Marlin 1895SS) on moose and whitetail here in Finland, and that's exactly what I do too with the hammer and trigger.

And now I'm wiser with the "MS" also! Thanks Marrakai. This site is just GREAT.

Regards,
Saku

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #67014 - 14/12/06 06:41 AM

The safeties on muzzleloading English rifles, hanguns and shotguns were usually engaged in the 1/2 cock position as well. Carrying a gun at full cock just wasn't done, it appears. I expect it was harder on the fine springs than necessary.
; We found this to be quite true in the North, hunting in -40 weather. Of course, cold wasn't a problem in the tropics, but fatigue of the springs perhaps was. As locks changed to shorter, stiffer springs, this may have resulted in the cocked and locked safeties that followed in modern-type actions. Those long graceful buggy-whip springs of side hammers could indeed give problems over time, if abused.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: DarylS]
      #67313 - 18/12/06 10:25 AM

Quote:

The safeties on muzzleloading English rifles, hanguns and shotguns were usually engaged in the 1/2 cock position as well.



Yes. I'm definitely learning all the time. I’m having these discussions both here and on IGC. It seems that at the time this rifle was made gunmakers were experimenting with different types of safeties, and adoption of a certain system may have been justified with various reasons among manufacturers, and all of those reasons can be valid.

O.K. It’s time for further questions. Can you explain how the original cartridges in this kind of early centerfire breech loading doubles were loaded? In this particular rifle the powder charge was 3½ drams of Lawrence No. 3 (equalling some 96 grains), and the round bullet weighed approximately 1/16 ounces. I have wondered what has been the seating depth of the bullet, and what kind of wad was used in the original cartridge? As I measured, 96 grains of FFg takes up only half of the case, so there must have been a wad of some kind if the ball was seated to the case mouth and not deeper.

Also the right chamber seems to have been ringed at some point in history.



I’ve experimented with light loads of fast burning powders in 45-70, but so far I’ve been scared away from the use of fillers due to the stories of people ringing their chambers with wrong filler material or incompetent use of fillers. Furthermore, I have very little experience on black powder in any kind of firearms, and I do not know anything about its tendency to promote chamber ringing if there is air space behind the bullet or if a wrong kind of filler/wad is used. This may be a silly question, but what you think is the most probable reason for chamber ring in this case. Is it just typical in these old BP guns in general, or has someone goofed around with smokeless powder, or what?

Another thing relating to the load is the question of regulation. When we speak about regulating a double rifle, we have sort of a common understanding of what we mean with that. Keeping this in mind, what can you say about barrel regulating of these early doubles (1875-1880)? Were they regulated A) at all; B) “to some extent”, or C) similarly as more modern side-by-sides? Or are these rifles just regulated by adjusting the charge?

I ask this because I’ve noticed that there isn’t any kind wedge or any other ‘system’ between the muzzles that could have been used for a true regulation. The inner sides of the muzzles are just filed flat and joined together, and there is only a thin vertical seam.



Of course, if it shoots apart it is possible to carefully adjust the muzzles closer little by little, and then stop as soon as the POIs starts to be close enough, but that doesn’t sound reasonable. On the other hand, if these rifles were not regulated, what is the point to have even a 200 yard leaf in the rear sight? Is it just pure optimism?

Sorry about the long post, but it seems that one question just leads to another. Oh well, it’s after midnight again. My intention was to work on an article on bear management that I am supposed to finalise and send for publishing before Christmas, but here I am again thinking about these things… And I decided to take just a QUICK peek on these forums before I start with bears.

Regards,
Saku

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #67318 - 18/12/06 02:01 PM

I'm confident your rifle was regulated at the factory.
My bore rifles also have their barrels touching at the muzzles.
Don't underestimate the sophistication of the design and build of that rifle.

Looking at those chambers, I wouldn't jump to assume that the right chamber has been 'ringed' as the black powder cartridge shooting scene would say.
The first assumption I'd come to on that visible feature is that someone at some time (for a long time) left a paper hull in there and the chamber rusted then pitted a bit at the mouth of the hull.

You should look in there with a very critical eye and some good lighting -- stuff some white patches in those bores to act as reflectors -- and look for signs of those chambers having been 'cleaned up' at some time in the past. I would have telescoping gages in there immediately.
Cast them too, with Cerrosafe alloy (you can get it from Midway or Brownells) and get casts of those bores while you're at it.
I'd be suprised if they haven't been cleaned up a bit.
They might even be longer than they were when the rifle was brand new.

Consider a couple things about overall length.
First off, different hull designs and different base wad designs will yield different powder capacities.

Pack your hulls with black powder and keep adding powder till it shoots together.
You will need over powder cards, I make mine in the shape of a cup, with the open end facing the powder. I make them from milk carton material.
You will need felt wadding and black powder lube. There are many different recipes for home made black powder lube, and there are commercially available products like Bore Butter (which I use, it's great) too.
You'll likely need to experiment a bit with how much wadding and how much black powder lube you'll need to do the job, also with how much you'll need in order to fill the case with powder, wadding, and roundball.

Seat the roundball at the mouth of the case.
Some guys use melted bee's wax to seal the roundball at the mouth of the case. I haven't needed to, but I haven't taken my cartridges into foul weather either. I haven't needed to crimp or fold or roll the case mouth to hold the roundball.
If you're using plastic, just set yourself up with a sizing die to reduce the diameter of the hull shell so the roundball will push in with a good friction fit.

Really, it's easy.
Get some hulls, make some over powder cards or cups and make some felt wads. Grab your powder and some groove diameter roundball and shoot the thing with something less than it should shoot with, then keep shooing it, adding powder till it shoots it's barrels together.
You will almost definitely need more volume of modern black powder than the powder it was designed for way back when. Today's powders just don't make nearly as much energy as black powder from the 1870's
Set your cartridges up with an overall length short enough to allow the chambered rounds to have at least a little bit of jump. You don't want the roundball touching the rifling with chambered rounds in a closed action.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #67321 - 18/12/06 06:34 PM

Dear Sakari

Welcome to the NitroExpress.com forums.

If you don't mind I would also like to upload your friend's double rifle images onto our server as a permanent record of the DR. Please let me know if this is OK.

It is a lovely hammer DR by the way too.

Quote:

... and now my registration was finally accepted.



I don't remember your registration specially but we approve memberships pretty regularly, almost every day. However we do require email verification of membership applications, so that may have delayed the approval, ie if it was not verified by reply email for a while. I do remember one or two applications from Finland which sat there for a while.

But you are here now anyway and hope the knowledgable members here can help you with your article.

Give NitroExpress.com and its members a plug too, hey!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: NitroX]
      #67323 - 18/12/06 08:48 PM

Saku:
Double-barrel bore-rifles like yours were regulated by inserting packing between the barrels somewhere slightly forward of the mid-point, to bow them out slightly, and thus create the correct amount of convergence of the bores at the muzzle. Same with SxS shotguns.

Tinker's right, just throw together some loads and get it shooting. It may take a while to tune the load for perfect results, but you can't do that unless you start burning some powder! Don't forget to use lubed wadding or a grease-cookie of some sort, as modern BP produces relatively dry fouling without it, which will damage the lead projectile on subsequent shots and ruin accuracy.

A round ball should probably be a few thou over groove diameter, which may not chamber when fitted in a plastic or paper hull if the gun was built for brass cases. In a brass-case double, you may need to crimp slightly, as recoil from the first barrel may inertia-pull the projectile from the case in the second barrel. Sounds like Tinker gets away with wax, though. Let us know how you go.

Tinker:
Any chance of some gobs of wax remaining stuck on the projectile and causing flyers?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: Marrakai]
      #67330 - 18/12/06 11:49 PM

Marrakai-

"Any chance"?

At times, while working on loads for these antique guns and fiddling with the re-creation of obsolete components (and/or suitable substitutes) to get them to perform to their original regulation standard, it can seem that *everything* is chance!

So on that, I'd say it's possible.
If I were lucky enough to have that particular issue with this particular rifle, you can bet I'd be happy to mess around with that variable...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #67383 - 19/12/06 10:11 AM

Thanks for the load info guys!

Tinker,

definitely I’m not underestimating the sophistication and craftsmanship here. On the contrary I’m more and more impressed every time I handle this gun. I want to stress however, that I’m truly a newbie with BP era doubles. Also, I've got chance to examine only a few nitro DRs. I have read a lot of them, though, as I started to collect books on them a couple of years ago or so.

Regarding the ring in the right chamber my theory was more of a speculation. I just took a closer look down the bores and to be specific there is a fairly perfect ring around the chamber. The distance of the ring from the breech does not seem to vary but it is 50-51 mm all around (sorry about the metrics). I also measured the chamber length and it is interesting that there seems to be a 0,5mm difference between the barrels; right is 70,9-71,0 mm and the left is only 70,4 mm. I’m not sure but I guess this might suggest that something has been done in the right chamber. Toolmarks, on the other hand, look about the same in both chambers, but I’m not an expert. The reason for the ring might very well be corrosion, as you suggested.

All in all, the ring ‘bulge’ is very shallow, and I’d suggest it will not interfere with the extraction.

Unfortunately I don’t have Cerrosafe at hand. Have to add it to my list as I make my next order from abroad, as I’d need it in my other ventures also. Finnish market is so small that special stuff has to be ordered from elsewhere. (In the next few lines there will be bad publicity for Midway. Somewhat childish complaints, I admit, but I'm pissed. In case you do not want to learn more, please skip to the next paragraph) ---- Midway has a branch in Finland, though, but their prices are terrible comparing to MidwayUsa, and they seem not to have anything in stock, but they just order all of the stuff from the headquarters in U.S. Once I tried to order online from the MidwayUsa, and as soon as I filled out the ‘country’, there was an announcement that “Please contact your local Midway distributor” or something like that. Last thing I desired from their catalogue was a bird’s head grip frame for my Ruger Single Six and the Midway prices were 149$ (in US) vs. 292€ (here). In the real world 149$ converts to 113€ (and on the other way round 292€ is 382$), so there seems to be a fair share for shipping&handling in the MidwayFinland’s price.


NitroX,

many thanks for your words of welcome! My intention was not by any means to complain about the long registration time. I was just eager to start asking questions about this rifle, and I felt I just couldn’t wait. I registered on Oct 10, requested about the processing of my registration on Oct 12, and got approved on Oct 16. No harm done, really.

It is just so that H. sapiens modernicus really isn't so good at waiting for things to happen. Everything has to fall into his hands promptly, and that’s kind of a pity

You can very well upload the images onto the server. I’m just glad if they’re good enough for that purpose. Please let me know, if you would like to have full screen resolution, and I’ll arrange that. As I recall, the current photos are some 500 pixels wide. Could be better, but I just made those for easy loading.

Great forum you have here. Thanks for that, John. I sincerely hope I have time to stay around in the future also.


Marrakai,

you said it! Packing between the barrels. As soon as I had sent my last mail, and went to bed, I started to figure that “What if... what if there is a wedge under the top rib somewhere in the middle of the barrels”… kind of funny.

BTW, what is the distance between the standing breech and hinge pin in your .577 conversion Greener Empire? I could ask this in another occasion, but it just popped to my mind here and now.


And I would just LOVE to shoot the rifle, but as I’ve said, the rifle is not mine, and I only got it for inspection so that I’m able to write the article I mentioned in my starting post. Furthermore, there’s that crack at the wrist, which would require a look before anybody could shoot the gun. I’ll pass all of your load info to the owner, though. He cannot speak or read English, and I’m certain that he’s more than happy to receive all that great information. And surely, I'll use it in my text also.


Regards,
Saku

Edited by sakmyk (20/12/06 12:57 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #67703 - 22/12/06 01:58 AM

sakmyk:
If you don't have easy access to cerrosafe, you can chamber-cast fairly accurately (within a couple of thou) with sulphur. Our local pharmacy sells it in a 100g container labelled 'Flowers of Sulphur', which is simply sublimed sulphur B.P.C., used as a mild laxative (!). Melt it in a tin-can and pour it into the blocked chamber as per cerrosafe. It tends to shrink as it cools, so you need to keep 'topping-up' the chamber till it fully solidifies, but if you do that, the resulting cast is fairly accurate. I've never used cerrosafe myself, hard to get in Australia too, always used sulphur.

The Greener 'Empire' has a very long action bar for a 12-bore shotgun. I have three of them, two are shotguns (an E-10 and an E-17 grade), and one is a converted .577 x 2 3/4 NE. They are all 2 1/2 inches or 62.5 mm from the standing breech to the centre of the hinge-pin.

Pity you can't get that rifle shooting, load development would be a heap of fun!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: Marrakai]
      #68742 - 04/01/07 09:38 AM

Hi again,

and happy new year to all!

Thanks for the info on sulphur and bar length, Marrakai. I have to give it a try and buy some of that stuff from the local pharmacy.

I just re-read all the information that you guys have provided so far, and I don't know how to thank you... This all is simply great.

A couple of further questions:

There is a small screw in between the underlugs in the monoblock. I have considered it to be the extractor lock screw - i.e. in the underside of the extractors' lower guide pin there is a cutting/slot, in which the tip of this screw protrudes and stops the extractor backward movement. By releasing this screw, the extractor could then be removed. Am I on the right track in this reasoning? I not sure of all terms there, but I hope you are able to follow my thought.




What might be the purpose of the blind hole behind the front sight blade? I have tried to figure out some kind of night sight construction that would require this kind of hole, but I'm not so sure about that. On page 96 A. Gray shows a fine H&H front sight assembly. There's also a similar looking hole. No explanation is given to it, though.




I'll be back soon with more questions - I hope I'm not exhausting you with these... Oh yes, another one popped into my mind: Does a name "C.B. Westmacott" ring any bell? This Rodda gun was sold cased, but I presume the case is not original. However, there is the above mentioned name on top of the case lid, and also something else in writing that is worn out and hard to read. I'll take a photo on the case soon and post it also.

Regards,
Saku

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: sakmyk]
      #68787 - 05/01/07 02:10 AM

The screw between the lumps is almost definitely the retaining screw for the extractor rod.

The hole in the front sight may have had the head of a screw in it. There may be the rest of that screw still in the top rib of the barrels.

Mr Westmacott was likely the owner of the rifle.
Google the name and see what you get.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sakmyk
.224 member


Reged: 10/10/06
Posts: 45
Loc: Western Finland
Re: RB Rodda 16-bore DR [Re: tinker]
      #68837 - 05/01/07 10:09 AM

Tinker,

yes, it is the retaining screw of the extractor. The hole on the front sight base, on the other hand, seems to be a bit trickier.

At first I thought also that the fastening screw of the sight base is missing or broken, but as I've examined it further I'm inclined to suggest that this is not the case. There is no thread or any kind of countersink, and the bottom of the hole is perfectly smooth and flat, and not rusty. Doesn't look like a broken screw.

It sure is difficult to say much about these kinds of things on the basis of a single photo, I admit. The best bet so far is that it has something to do with a moonsight. The dimensions of the whole front sight are however, so minuscule (blade height is 3mm or 1/8", and the base length is 18mm or 11/16") that it is doubtful that there is room for any permanently attached folding night sight. Of course it sounds highly impractical that the sight would have been separate and has been attached (maybe to the hole?) only when needed, but the current sight+base is tiny indeed.

I got great information on Mr. CB Westmacott from the IGC board - and there seems to be material on this fellow in the web also.

As I've now examined the case more thoroughly, it revealed that the interiors of the case have been rather crudely redone. I try to find out more about the man behind the name. As I said, I assume that the case it not originally from this rifle, but you never know...

Here are the photos on the rifle case. Can any of you figure out the lower text. Last word is Reg't, or something like that, where the letter "t" is small superscript ("Regiment" maybe?). The first word is really blurred, and I can't suggest anything on that. It may start with a "1st", but I'm not sure.





Regards,
Saku

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
1 registered and 670 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 7979

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved