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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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jsl3170
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Loc: Maine, USA
Another .375 H & H post...
      #63396 - 03/10/06 05:30 AM

Good afternoon,

I am seeking input from others on something I read recently: if one Googles deerstalker index and goes to that site there is an interesting article regarding improving the 375. The essence of the article as I read it was that this caliber's performance could be improved by downloading it to 9.3 x 62 mm velocities.

This position seems to be also made by Gregor Woods, rifle editor of SA's Magnum magazine, in his seminal work, Rifles for Africa. Inter alia, he argues that most shooting there is inside of 300 yards and these velocities allow bullets (whether of conventional of premium grade) an opportunity to do their work. He also gives time to making the argument in this book that the .375 is such a truly lone competitor for the title of all-rounder that when distance shooting is done the most success for the hunter will be in re-zeroing the scope on the rifle.

I would welcome all relevant experience and opinions on this matter as I have decided to use this caliber as the basis of a custom rifle project employing the technology of Empire Rifle's Mauser action.

Cheers!
Jeff

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: jsl3170]
      #63398 - 03/10/06 05:46 AM

While I no longer have a .375H&H, I loaded it similarly to my present .375/-06IMP. It moves 235gr. Speers at 2,845fps for deer to 400yards, as well as 300gr. bonded Hornady's at 2,470fps for all else, with a 300yard max range. The 300's don't drop enough to move the hairs off hair on Moose nor Elk. This covers most game I am bound to shoot. I also have ammo with 285gr. Speer Grand Slams at 2,520fps for serious work on big bears at close range, however the 300 bonded cores will certainly do that work and probably just as well. I picked up the 285's cheaply at 430.00 for the 50 box, so tried them out. Not shot game with them yet, but they are revered in .375 by some people for heavy work.
; These ballistics are in the heavy 9.3 x62 range, as I easily ran 2,518fps in my 9.3x62 with BLC2 and 286gr. Normas. It is possible the 232gr. Norma is a great deer bullet, and probably would run 2,700fps in a good 9.3. All of thee ballistics are duplicatable in a .375H&H with H4895 powder, with good accuracy, generally. With the appropriate bullet design, these ballistics are plenty adequate for any game, anywhere. Proper hitting is the key to quick kills with this medium bore. It's moderate recoil makes proper hitting much easier than the larger cases. The original ballistics that made the .375 famouls had a 300gr.a t 2,400fps and a 270gr. at 2,600fps, ballistics obtainable in a Mauser 6.3X62 with modern powders.
Daryl

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (03/10/06 05:52 AM)

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Otto
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Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #63459 - 03/10/06 10:13 PM

I used the 375 extensively in the 70s and 80s with the 300gr Sierra and 76gr of Win 760. Everything shot at was killed with 1 shot...including elk, moose, brown bears, and a carabou at 300 yards. When finally chronogrphed, my load was just under 2400fps in a stock pre 64 M70. I've no experience with any 9.3s on game but have a 150.1 Merkel in 9.3x74 that will hunt someday. I'm sure the moderate velocities of the 9.3x 74 will be every bit as effective as the old 375 load. Too bad the 376 Steyr never caught on...it's a better round than the 9.3x62 IMO.

Otto

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: Otto]
      #63487 - 04/10/06 04:01 AM

Way to go Otto - that early 300gr. Sierra was well suited to the lower velocity you were achieving, giving excellent results - obviously. Higher speeds showed it to be a bit soft until they strengthened the jacket at Elmer Keith's recommendation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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jro45
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #63886 - 11/10/06 11:19 PM

I have my 375 H&H shooting 250 gr bullets at 2720 fps. These are Serria bullets.

How you doing Daryl_s?

I went to Canada and shot a Black Bear with my 300 RUM shooting 200 gr Nosler Partitions.
Going to Africa in 2007 thats what the plans are.

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: jro45]
      #63888 - 12/10/06 01:26 AM

Cool - doing great! Just got back from guiding a hunt. Great time, great people, great food, lots of game.
: That 250gr. Sierra SPBT shoots quite accurately in my rifle as well and probably at the velocity level we're using, would make a good deer/Bbear bullet. I think it's a bit soft for large stuff. I've yet to try the new bonded Hornady 300, but it's only $1.00 more thna the Interlocks, which are a bit better than the old RN's. I expect the 300 bonded RN will become my favourite for the little .375.
: The 200gr. Nosler is a great bullet for small bores.
: Good luck on the Dark Continent.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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260rem
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Reged: 16/04/06
Posts: 757
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: jsl3170]
      #63915 - 12/10/06 06:20 PM

I use 67gr of AR2208 behind the Taipan 220gr FP in my 375H&H as a Boar, Deer and Rabbit round. I have worked this out on a reduced load calculator as getting around the 2800fps ball park or about the same performance as a 338win mag just with less kick.

it is a very accurate load in my rifle and very easy on the shoulder, it is also the same load as I use behind the 270gr Woodleigh PP for the bigger stuff.

--------------------
One shot is all you need.

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jsl3170
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Reged: 16/12/04
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #64259 - 19/10/06 02:38 AM

Dear Daryl,

In respnse to your post, I was recently examining Barnes Bullets site and some of the 9.3 bullets have a relatively high BC. Given your comments concerning 9.3 x 62 velocities in the 2500fps range do you think this could function similarly to the 375 as a pretty decent long range cartridge say to 300 yards where most game is shot (at long distance)?

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: jsl3170]
      #64286 - 19/10/06 01:02 PM

In my own .375/06IMP, very similar to the 9.3x62 - has almost identical case capacity and is useable with identical pressure in a good Mauser action to the 9.3x62.
: My own 9.3x62 easily ran over 2,500fps with 286gr. bullets, and this new .375 of mine does the same. I haven't even explored BLC2 in it yet, and will probably add amost another 100fps, but why?
; Wit 300gr. bullets doing 2,470fps, it is capable and powerful enough to shoot large game out to 300 yards. At that range, there is little difference in higher BC bullets - not enough for the game to know the difference.
; I use a lazer range finder for lo0nger ranges, but has an absolute maximum range on large game of 300 yards, and the range finder really isn't nessary at that range.
: 300 yards means only a 13" holdover - something that won't even raise the cross-hairs above the spine of a moose or elk. The bullet will be under the hide on the off side and the animal probably won't go 50 yards and it will be dead.
: To answer your question directly, yes - about any descent weight 9.3 bullet is capable of long range shooting of large game to at least 300 yards. I hold, that prudent hunters would rather do their hunting before squeezing the trigger, than after, or even, as many do, try to guess whether or not they even hit the animal due to it's 'reation' to the shot. I hear it too often from guys who try longer range shots.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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jsl3170
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Reged: 16/12/04
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #64306 - 20/10/06 02:42 AM

Thank you, Daryl. I would also add two comments:

The writings I have read report the 9.3 x 62 as having very tolerable felt recoil for most shooters. Keeping in mind the proviso that a properly fit stock is a very good thing indeed, do you think this would be a good big game caliber for a woman?

Second, I have referenced Gregor Woods earlier in this thread and feel I can probably apply your comments to his which suggest that as hunters if we must shoot at longer distances then we should worry more about having a properly zeroed scope than extra velocity in our hunting rounds.

Thanks for your input.

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: jsl3170]
      #64319 - 20/10/06 05:23 AM

Women around the world have successfully used much larger calibre rifles, .375H&H as well as some of the .458's. They must have indeed had copious amounts of training and practise.
: There are no women in my family who would be able to handle such a rifle. My wife shrunk from the recoil of her .375 Winchester Big Bore 94, so I now own it. Nice rifle with 2 mose to it's credit now. My younger daughter, at age 24 and 160 pounds likes her .260 Rem. She's shooting 160gr. RN Sierras at 2,300fps and finds it pleasant to shoot. She's yet to fire her 300th round, but can hold 1-1/2" at 100 meters (8 out of 10) shooting off her elbows. this is better than a lot of guys do off the bench. The stray 2 rounds opened her group to 2-1/4". I'm not sure I could do better right now of my elbows.
: Most women are about peaked with .270's, .30/06's, etc. and are much better off with a good 7mm Mauser.
: With good bullets of sufficient length, there is little they (6.5 or 7mm) cannot kill.
: I think a 9.3, of sufficient weight, started with 232gr. bullet at 2,000fps, then worked up in power and bullet weight, might be handled by a women after some years of practise. A standing bench would be most helpful - the type used for regulating & shooting heavy double rifles. that way, the body can bend at the waist and help absorb recoil.
: My .375/06IMP, shooting only 56gr. H4895, and developing 2,470fps to a 300 gr. bullet is beyond most women and many men (average) for that matter. It's 8 1/2 pounds comes back pretty sharply, considering it puts out the same speed as most 30gr. .375H&H factory ammo. I feel it's recoil is less than most .30 magnums, though - not as sharp. For those who shoot heavier recoiling guns without any flinching, this, of course, is not aimed at you. It is a general statement only, so there is no need to jump on the 'protection wagon' and declare how heavy a gun you shoot without flinching. Too - many guys can shoot without ever flinching at the bench, but many cannot do the same from the standing postion, where they should be practising, but don't.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoppdoc
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #64320 - 20/10/06 06:03 AM

The woman who can shoot a 375 is rare indeed.

The women hunters I know shoot up to 30.06. The best female shooter I know shoots a 7mm08 and is positively deadly with it to 300 yds.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (20/10/06 06:08 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: hoppdoc]
      #64325 - 20/10/06 10:02 AM

You'reare right, of course, but they are out there. Training and practise are paramount importance. Coni Brooks comes to mind as one who can, who has used a .338 WM for deer hunting in Saskatchewan at least twice. Another women huntress in Barnes Loading manual used a .458WM for her elephant while several more used .270's through 7mm Rem Mags. That puts most tolerable recoil around the '06 level. In the right gun, it's not a kicker at all.
: Stock fit is most important. A friend I once had, now decesased, had an older '06 Savage that kicked harder tha my .375 does. It was horrific to shoot and was only an'06. Most 7mm Mags, I find kick about the same, same recoil for about the same performance. I much prefer the old Gov' .30/06 ctg. over about any 7mm for heavier game. I just revile in using my 7mm mauser for almost everything.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoppdoc
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #64344 - 20/10/06 10:04 PM

Coni Brooks of Barnes Bullets is a helluva shooter for a woman.

In the most recent Barnes reloading manual she notes that she shot a 500 NE Double and took Elephant/Buffalo with great success!!

@#*%!!

I was impressed!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: hoppdoc]
      #64352 - 21/10/06 02:45 AM

Yes- quite a women or sure, but does show what practise and training can do for you.
: When I was much younger, I used to revel in the heavier kicking rifles, but not any more. My .458 grouse gun was an expample. I head-shot 34 ruffed grouse one fall with it while moose hunting. Probably why I didn't see many moose - HA!


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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jsl3170
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #64542 - 24/10/06 06:33 AM

Could you offer any perspective regarding the use of a mercury recoil reducer? Have you used one and what is the effect on the perceived recoil? Let's assume for discussion sake that the gunsmith is able to appropriately overcome the balance issue this may create by placing it in the buttstock.

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500grains
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: jsl3170]
      #64568 - 24/10/06 12:38 PM

A mercury recoil reducer definitely takes the edge or bite out of recoil in my experience.

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DarylS
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: jsl3170]
      #64613 - 25/10/06 11:40 AM

I'm with 500gr. on this one. As far as a percentage of recoil, I can't give one, however they do reduce the sharpness of some gun's recoil. Taking the bite, is as good an analogy as any. It definitely is superior to a muzzle break due to not increasing the noise. Shooting without any recoil reducer for me, is better than a muzzle break.
: The various heavy 'special' pads also are good reducers of felt recoil. In conjunction with a murcury reducer, perhaps better than a standard rifle/pad with a break.
: My experience with them is minimal, but made my .458 almost pleasant to shoot. With it's heavy barrel, the reducer balanced it out nicely. This was back in the 80's.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Scott
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Re: Another .375 H & H post... [Re: DarylS]
      #64757 - 27/10/06 12:45 PM

The mercury recoil reducer will definitely take the bite out of the gun. I used one in my very light weight Beretta O/U 12 guage shotgun for heavy duck loads. It will add back weight to the gun. It was not really a problem with the shotgun. I would think that a heavier rifle barrel will have a somewhat better balance to the gun with the reducer in place. The recoil reducer will add about a pound to the gun. If balance becomes an issue, you could always add weight in the forend of the stock.

I have not found a need to add one to any of my rifles yet. I would prefer the recoil reducer to a muzzle brake.

scott

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