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jagermeister
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Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 14
Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles?
      #63391 - 03/10/06 04:09 AM

The heavy rim on the .475 No 2 looks like a good design feature for a DG gun. Why is this not more popular?

I never seem to see an older gun for sale in this loading, and it doesn't seem like any of the new manufacturers such as Heym, Searcy, Merkel, etc. make guns for that cartridge.

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pwm
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: jagermeister]
      #63401 - 03/10/06 06:04 AM

the jeffery cartridges like 450 or the 475 no 2 remind me allways on the famous swedish 40mm bofors AA round and on the other side the 22 hornet case.
this construction is the best when it comes to rimmed cases, build for work under any cirkumstances.the thin rim we have on old BPE based NE cartridges be not the problem today like in the old times.
Originaly it was a iron disc on a coiled case and work with blackpowder. jeffery rework the rim and make it thicker and stronger than before but who has heard from a brocken rim with a sticking case in modern load of 470 , 500NE? I think, this problem is long time gone.
Disadvantage for the jeffery case today is what was very well with cordit powder, the big space inside, impossible to load without filler.
the case is very heavy and more expensive to make than 470 NE or similar.
And last but not least there are two different cartridges with this name, different bullet dia. and different velocity

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: pwm]
      #63405 - 03/10/06 08:31 AM

One of my best friends David owns a Jeffery 475#2 Jeffery .488 caliber. I reload ammo for the rifle!
It is probably the most under rated double rifle chamberings arounds.

This rifle at 11 pounds is an elephant kill'n Beauty! It is one of the most pristine old English doubles I've ever handled.
For me it is right on the cuff of what I can tolerate in recoil off the bench.

I feel that most folks who own a 475#2 Jeffery are extremely satisfied with their doubles!

Just my opine

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: jagermeister]
      #63407 - 03/10/06 09:07 AM

There is one currently listed on GUNLIST, an Alex Henry I believe.

Jim

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: Rusty]
      #63409 - 03/10/06 09:23 AM

Rusty

I feel that most folks who own a 475#2 Jeffery are extremely satisfied with their doubles
and
It is probably the most under rated double rifle chamberings arounds.

Well said - spot on.

500 Nitro

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: jagermeister]
      #63411 - 03/10/06 09:46 AM

[quoteThe heavy rim on the .475 No 2 looks like a good design feature for a DG gun. Why is this not more popular?

I never seem to see an older gun for sale in this loading, and it doesn't seem like any of the new manufacturers such as Heym, Searcy, Merkel, etc. make guns for that cartridge. ]




jagermeister, the biggest reason for the lack of rifles in this cartridge, is not because it isn't a good cartridge, because it is one of the best. However, the brass is so large it is hard to draw, without a lot of loss in the process, makeing the brass very expensive, and hard to find a reliable sourse for it! This is a very good case to make some of the older Black powder cases from, because it is heavy, it can handle a lot of pressure without problem. I have some brand new HDS brass made by the OLD BELL brass, some fine brass. I make cases for the old 500/450#1 Express Black powder, and Nitro for black rifles.
I agree the heavy rim, is a plus that most NE cartridges could benifite from, and the heavy brass walls can contain a lot more pressure, takeing some of the pressure off old double rifle actions, increasing their lifespans.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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jagermeister
.224 member


Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 14
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #63474 - 04/10/06 01:37 AM

Thanks for the replies and the info.

.488 bullets? I thought from the case dimensions that the .475 No 2 took the same bullet as a .470 NE. Is this incorrect? I thought the .470 NE bullet diameter was .475 inches. Where do you get .488 inch bullets?

Ammo availability does appear to be an issue. A Square is listed as having .475 No 2, but I can't seem to find any for sale anyplace.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: jagermeister]
      #63478 - 04/10/06 02:04 AM

Woodleigh makes bullets for that cartridge as with most Nitro Express loadings.

Brass? Try Bertram or Horneber, or ....(?)

Loaded ammo? Absolutely no idea. Never even considered buying ammo for a NE across a counter.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #63479 - 04/10/06 02:19 AM

jagermeister:

The .470 uses a 500 grain .474" bullet.

There are two .475 No. 2 Nitro Expresses, and both are common. The .475 No. 2 Eley used a .483" 480 grain bullet, usually with 85 grains of Cordite. The .475 No. 2 Jeffery used a .489" 500 grain bullet, usually with 80 grains Cordite. Both use the same case. Both were, and still are, quite popular. In pre-war guns they are not as common as .470s, but they're certainly not uncommon either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: jagermeister]
      #63480 - 04/10/06 02:25 AM

In reply to:

488 bullets? I thought from the case dimensions that the .475 No 2 took the same bullet as a .470 NE. Is this incorrect? I thought the .470 NE bullet diameter was .475 inches. Where do you get .488 inch bullets?




There are two versions of the 475#2 NitroEXPRESS, and the #2 Jeffery. The most common bullet dia is .489" , 500 gr bullet, but Jeffery made a lighter load for his rifles, useing a .483 dia 480 gr bullet, and the balistics of the 500 gr version, is vertually identicle to the 470NE with the same weight bullet. The Jeffery, and other cartridges in this chambering are not interchangable, though the cases are the same, the bullets are different. One can usually get these rifles for a lot less money, because of the lack componant availability, but that can be a problem for the new owner!

Most simply avoid the problem by buying a 470NE double!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Double_Trouble
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Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #63481 - 04/10/06 03:01 AM

NitroX
Would you happen to have an email addy and or telephone number for Woodleigh? I am looking for some bullets for a 700 and am struggling to find a home page for Woodleigh.

much appreciated if you do

thanks

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #63482 - 04/10/06 03:05 AM

Here you go;

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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Double_Trouble
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Reged: 27/04/06
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: bulldog563]
      #63488 - 04/10/06 04:15 AM

thanks loads Bulldog !

( pun itended )

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #63489 - 04/10/06 05:32 AM

Mac, you've got them backwards. The Jeffery is the .489" 500 grain.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63553 - 04/10/06 11:18 PM

Actually, the Woodleigh box says .488.

Link to Bullets
Bullet listings

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63564 - 05/10/06 02:23 AM

In reply to:

Mac, you've got them backwards. The Jeffery is the .489" 500 grain.




..............................NOTED...........................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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jagermeister
.224 member


Reged: 07/06/06
Posts: 14
Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #63566 - 05/10/06 03:06 AM

Thanks for the comments and links. I checked out the gun for sale and Woodleigh bullets.

I spoke with Mr. Mayer who listed the .475 No. 2 on Gun List. It's an Alex. Henry boxlock extractor gun made in the 1920s. He's asking $15,600 with 14 rounds of loaded ammo.

Not that I have a great deal of experience with double rifles, but I kind of have my heart set on an ejector gun.

The calibers I'm considering are:

.450 No 2
.470
.475 No 2
.500

I figure if I'm paying $12k+ for something, I should get exactly what I want and not "pretty much" what I want.

Am I being overly picky on ejectors vs. extractors? Ejectors are handy in bird hunting, but I have no experience hunting with a double rifle.

The heavy rim of the .475 No 2 cartridge is reassuring, but it's kind of scary that more bullets are available for .500 than .475 No. 2. Maybe the .450 No. 2 is a better choice, there are lots of .458 bullets available.

Am I being paranoid on rim thickness? I shot a friends .470 NE. He strongly recommended .470 NE due to the availability of factory loads (I shot a box of his Federal ammo), but I was surprised by how small and thin the rim looked.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: jagermeister]
      #63573 - 05/10/06 04:42 AM

Don't worry about either.

You're right, ejectors are nice when hunting birds with a shotty. Even the lure of low price would not induce me to try a double shotgun without ejectors. On a shotgun, they're just too functional to be without.

A double rifle chambered for a flanged cartridge is an entirely different matter. I've owned and used double rifles both with and without ejectors for years. The one I use the most has them, they're just an annoyance. They're just something else to go wrong, and make the gun harder to close, yet provide no offsetting useful service. Ignore the ejector issue and concentrate on the quality of the gun.

I prefer the .060" and .080" rims too, but the .035-.040" rims are fine. It just isn't an issue. The idea that a double rifle should be chosen based upon the avavilability of factory ammunition is silly. If you buy a new rifle, .470 is fine. If you want an second hand British rifle, avoid .470. You'll pay a stiff premium to get that caliber and it won't do anything better than any of the rest.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63615 - 05/10/06 04:05 PM

400 Nitro is correct.
I have a 450 No2 extractor double, a 450/400 3 1/4" ejector double, and a 9,3x74R ejector double.

I have switched between the extractor 450 and the ejector 9,3 on the same day, on 2 Safaris without problem.
If you have strong feelings about ejector vs extractor get the one you want.
I know it would not make any difference to me.

In a timed test you can load an ejector gun a little faster, but I usually catch my brass from my ejector guns and put it in my back pocket any way.

The thick vs thin rim thickness is not an issue with modern cases to me either. Both work.

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vigillinus
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: jagermeister]
      #63622 - 05/10/06 09:46 PM

By my reckoning the original .450 Nitro Express is superior to any of the later .465/.470/.475 variants simply because the case is slenderer and the rifles can be made less thick through the breech. The .470 has become the most popular through no special virtue of its own.

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sbs470
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: vigillinus]
      #63710 - 07/10/06 11:57 PM

Hi Guys
Funny thing, I was told about an original Jefferies 475 No2 fully cased with all the toys this very morning.My mate rang this moning from Wisconsin and told me about it he says it in in excellent condition and has been well cared for,sadly its a bit steep for me and I have to by a new car soon so I can forget about that one Appently it was owned by a Journalist from the Chicargo Tribune who was a friend of Teddy Roosevelt and the claim by the present owner is that it has been in the hands of the afore mentioned. The owner at 85 years has decided that it's time to divest himself of some of his toys.What a terrible decision to have to make.

good shooting
sbs470

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bonanza
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: sbs470]
      #63792 - 10/10/06 04:49 AM

I'd skip the ejectors. I have them on my Jeffery and don't care fo them. If I were to have a new DR made, I'd get it in 450NE or 500/450NE. 458 bullet selection is awesome - 350 to 550 grains.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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jagermeister
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Reged: 07/06/06
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Re: Why no 475 No.2 Jeffery rifles? [Re: sbs470]
      #63817 - 10/10/06 07:59 AM

sbs470

Can you tell me the gun shop where the .475 Jeffery is for sale? What's the asking price?

Sadly, most guns end up at a local gun shop for a deep discount unless one is fortunate enough to have children, grandchildren or nephews who have interest in the sport and/or understand their value.

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