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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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DucofDeath3
.224 member

Reged: 31/12/03
Posts: 8

Why big bores?
#6310 - 31/12/03 02:45 PM

I do most of my hunting with a .243 and a .223 and it all goes pretty well.

I dont understand the reqiurement for a big bore. Why do yous lot think it is reqiured to use with such overkill when a skilled shot can do it much better with a small caliber?

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Holmes
.300 member

Reged: 01/12/03
Posts: 159
Loc: Wyoming, USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6312 - 31/12/03 04:01 PM

Much BETTER with a small bore????

Where do you get that idea? If you and I both down an elk, you with your small bore and me with my big bore, how does the small bore end up BETTER if both shots are properly placed?

Quite honestly, your comments offend the hell out of me. I'm tired of being told how I should do it, or how the way I'm doing it is unnecessary.

And just what does the term 'overkill' mean??? Please define.

Let's now take a large mule deer at a distance of 150 yards. Can't get on the lungs so we'll have to anchor a shoulder. Me with my 50 calibre pill going along at 2150 and you with your 6mm bullet travelling 1000 fps faster.

Shall we compare blooded meat from that shoulder?

Big bores are fun and some just prefer them. Small bores are fun and some prefer them. So what's the problem?

I'm not going to get into dangerous game where stopping power and killing power are clearly differentiated.

By your logic, a truly skilled hunter would be using a 17 calibre. Wouldn't that be better than your overkill 243?

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6316 - 31/12/03 04:47 PM

DucofDeath3

Welcome to the forum.

Interesting handle by the way, what does it mean?

I guess it would depend on what you hunt. Holmes has about said it. What exactly does overkill mean? How can something be more than dead? Also what do you mean by do it better? Do you think smaller bores are more accurate than a larger bores?

What kind of animals do you hunt? Would you feel comfortable taking on a Range Bull or Water Buffalo with the 243? Under every possible condition?

Sometimes it is just fun to blow the crap out of something.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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470Nitro
.333 member

Reged: 17/09/03
Posts: 467
Loc: Madrid - Spain

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6318 - 31/12/03 08:34 PM

I think you never had hunted any dangerous game dude

. Do it and you'll think other way

--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight
talkin' 'bout guns and dreamin 'bout women
never had a plan just a livin' for the minute

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6324 - 01/01/04 12:07 AM

DucofDeath3

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

I started off with .222, .243, progressed to 30-06 and mostly shot vermin (Foxes, Kangaroos (under licence) and Pigs)
with the Foxes and Kangaroos Spotlighted at night from a vehicle. I though this would be all I needed.

Then as I got more and more into shooting, I progessed up to 9.3, 375 and on and on and on - now from 500 Nitro to .222.
From my interest in guns, I got more interested in hunting bigger game and now spend alot of time shooting Buffalo etc etc.
For others, it may be the other way around - get interested in hunting big game and then get a gun to suit.

I am sure you will find alot of people are like the above.

Until you hunt bigger game, I think it unlikely that you will understand.

Secondly, one thing that we have/had a problem here (and one I particulalry dislike) is with people shooting larger
game with inadequate (generally smaller) calibres ie - Large deer with 22-250's. As a result they have put minimum
calibres on certain animals - deer - 270 Cal. This is like Africa - Min 375 Cal for Dangerous game.

I am not saying that a deer can't be taken cleanly with a 22-250, particularly by experiened and accurate hunters,
but animals generally don't stand still and give or present perfect side on heart / lung shots.

Finally, I would like to invite you to come and hunt buffalo with your .222 / .243.

When the 1 Ton Buffalo Bull gets pissed off with you and decides to charge and stick you on the end of it's horns
and then flatten you against the nearest tree, you'll then see the reqiurement for a big bore.
Don't worry, I'd be backing you up with a 500 Nitro double.

Anyway, hope that give you something to think about - sweet dreams !!!

500 Nitro

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iqbal
resigned as a member

Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan

Re: Why big bores? [Re: Holmes]
#6328 - 01/01/04 02:44 AM

The question probably is,why use a big bore on an animal which can easily be downed with a medium bore.For instance why should one use a 375 H&H MAG.on a deer or impala,it would only ruin the meat,why not use a 270 instead.For big game like cape buff.etc.a big bore is absolutely essential,no question about that.

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
#6333 - 01/01/04 08:12 AM

Igbal

I think you might find that the 270 does more damage than the 375 on Deer sized game.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
#6335 - 01/01/04 08:30 AM

[quoteThe question probably is,why use a big bore on an animal which can easily be downed with a medium bore.For instance why should one use a 375 H&H MAG.on a deer or impala,it would only ruin the meat,why not use a 270 instead.For big game like cape buff.etc.a big bore is absolutely essential,no question about that. ]

Iqbal,in the first place a 375 H&H is not a big bore,but a medium bore, and your 243, and 270 are small bores.

The reason one uses a 375 on deer, or impala is because that is what he wants to use, in the USA! I can tell you from personal experience that the 270 will ruin far more meat than a 375 H&H, and the 243 will ruin more meat than the 270! Everyone has the wrong idea about meat damage, 90% of the meat damage is caused by velocity, not the size of the bullet! In Africa I have shot little 75 lb Impala with a 375 H&H 300 gr Nos Part, and lost no meat at all! Bored a clean .375 hole right through, and dropped him in his tracks. A 375 H&H @ 2500 fps with a 300 gr Nosler partition will barely open up on a 200 lb muledeer, but will punch a .375 hole right through, and you can eat right up to the hole. A 243 pumping 3000 fps with a 100 gr bullet will bruise a lot of shoulder, and you can forget a Texas heart shot with the 243, or 270, on a going away muley,or elk, because it will only gut shoot it, and/or ruin the hams. The 243 is my favorite for cross canyon muledeer hunting, but I will only lung shoot them. In regard to the Impala, the plains game rifle, used in Africa, absolutely must be enough to handle what ever you run into. Simply because you are only hunting Impala,makes no difference when you break through the jesse, and meet a Cape Buffalo face to face? If you are carrying a 243, or 270 what do you do? pray I say. You better hope he doesn't want to fight, and if he does, you might want to use that little rifle to commit suicide so it doesn't hurt so bad when he gets to you! If at close range, you might be in trouble with the 375 H&H as well!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Nick_Adams
.300 member

Reged: 20/12/03
Posts: 148
Loc: USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#6337 - 01/01/04 11:21 AM

More to the point, for the ethical hunter there is no such thing as "overkill."

There is only a quick clean kill, a wounded animal or a miss. It is only the second possibility that concerns us.

Wounded game typically results, not from poor markmanship (which does account for the misses), but from not using "enough gun," i.e., a caliber appropriate for the species of game being hunted. Shot placement on the animal is important too, but if the caliber is insufficient the bullet simply won't have the mass, weight or velocity to incapacitate the animal immediately, even if a vital region is struck.

In some countries we now find restrictions on the minimum legal calibers allowed for taking various species. This, because in the past hunters shooting calibers inadequate for a quick kill wounded too many animals, thus permitting escape and needless suffering. Also, against dangerous game, underpowered cartridges sometimes resulted in casualties among hunters from a wounded animal that charged.

--------------------
________________________________

Remember ...

"Only accurate rifles are interesting."

.300 H&H.

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iqbal
resigned as a member

Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan

Re: Why big bores? [Re: mickey]
#6406 - 03/01/04 02:41 AM

DUGABOY1 and Mickey,
I stand corrected,actually i have never shot a deer with a 375H&H and therefore assumed that it would ruin the meat as compared to a 270.Because of the nature of game around here the calibers most commonly used are the 270 and 7mm.mag.The 243 is used on deer alongwith the 22-250 and the other calibers mentioned on the ibex,horned sheep and nilghai.

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BigBore2
.224 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 12
Loc: central Tx. USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
#6416 - 03/01/04 09:42 AM

I like big vehicles, big drinks, big tits & big guns! Regards BigBore2

--------------------
Whiskey for my men & beer for my horses!

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khornet
.224 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 3

Re: Why big bores? [Re: BigBore2]
#6419 - 03/01/04 12:33 PM

NitroX has asked lurkers why they don't post.first can't type 2 fingers takes a long time to say what I want to.Second not much formal education can't spell,punctuate,or form proper sentences easily.I have never hunted anything bigger than deer,probably never will.From my expierience a small caliber high velocity bullet[22cal] right behind the front leg broadside turns a deer's lungs into purple jello.So If a hunter was willing to pass until the perfect broadside shot would a 264win or a 7mmstw with a barnes xbullet do the samething to a buffalo or elephants lungs.Forget the charge the ph has a stopping rifle.Forget the cost of paying for the buff the ph shot.My only question is would the lungs be desrtoyed?Sure this hunter is a rich weirdo,but would it work?If my memory is correct Fred Bear's had to stop charges on the first two brown bears with a rifle befor he could claim the third as an archery kill.I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but would like a serious answer from somewone who has been there.

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Why big bores? [Re: khornet]
#6425 - 03/01/04 02:23 PM

khornet,

Welcome don't worry about not being able to type or spell. Getting your point across is what is important.

The short answer is not, not at least with a single bullet. Buffalo and Elephants are much, much tougher than any Deer. They are also much, much larger.

One of the reasons, there are many, for carrying a large caliber is for the shot that you can't plan for. An unexpected shot or even a charge. To rely on the skill and ability of any PH is foolish. It's your life and body, not his.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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nopride2
.300 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6436 - 03/01/04 04:42 PM

I grew up reading Jack O'Conner and Elmer Keith. I sided with Jack. Used a .270. Accurate with any bullet or load. Killed everything I shot by picking my shots. Over the years I passed on several elk, because the shot angle was wrong for a .270, Texas heart shots and the like. I also realized I was carrying a 300 yard rifle, and all my game was taken within 100 yards. After 50 years I now say "Elmer is/was right" The big bullet starts out pre-expanded. It will penetrate most soft skin game full length. It plows through heavy bones. It usually leaves two large holes in a animal, with a better blood trail. Case in point; I shot an elk running through pecker poles at about 25 yards. I never saw the 4 inch diameter tree he was passing behind. Shot dead center through the tree and through the elk. The bullet, .45 cal. 350 gr. at 2000 fps. No small bore rifle would have made that shot. Did I throw my .270 away? No, it's my first big game rifle, a pre '64 M70 I bought new for just over a hundred bucks. I still use it, I'm just more aware of its limitations.

Dave

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iqbal
resigned as a member

Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan

Re: Why big bores? [Re: BigBore2]
#6446 - 03/01/04 10:08 PM

Texans are famous for liking evrything big.Big tits are my weakness too.Texas is a beautiful state and the people are also very good.I am a regular visitor to Texas as i have a daughter living there.Maybe we meet one day.
Regards,Iqbal.

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BigBore2
.224 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 12
Loc: central Tx. USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: iqbal]
#6467 - 04/01/04 04:06 AM

Hi igbal, What part of Tx. do you come to? Regards BigBore2

--------------------
Whiskey for my men & beer for my horses!

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iqbal
resigned as a member

Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan

Re: Why big bores? [Re: BigBore2]
#6476 - 04/01/04 06:14 AM

Hi Big Bore2,my daughter lives in Coppell,TX.its close to Dallas.I will be there again in May 2004 and will be staying for about a amonth.
Regards,Iqbal.

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Hauptjäger
.275 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 94
Loc: Hilo, Hawaii

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6513 - 04/01/04 05:25 PM

DucofDeath3
Although one might say "live and let live and take all things in moderation."

This principle does not hold true when hunting truly big game. Yes, a .243 and .223 can kill white tale and turkey well, I too have used both. However the simple fact is that small 55 to 100 grain bullet no mater the make sent out a velocities at or near 3000fps will not deliver enough "shock" or penetration to disable much less outright kill a large game. In North America moose, caribou, and brown bear are simply too big and tough to be taken with a .20 caliber weapon. Elk and mule dear could be taken as you describe however your effective range would be so greatly reduced you would almost never get a shot off.
It is true that some hunter will use bore size to compensate for a great many things, not the least of which is marksmanship.

They allow the gun to do what they can not! Not to understate, shouting skills, a hunter mustn't develop a "little mans" complex, and tries to verbally "write a checks" his gun can not get him out of.

In this case everyone involved louses: The animal is wounded, lost, and face a slow pointless death; the animal is wounded and charges the hunter and someone gets hurt if the PH can not provide a "charge stopping" shot with (yes you gusted it a "big bore rifle")
At the end of the day, regardless of your personal abilities / skills, your must select the caliber that is best suited to your intended target. "You don't want to bring a knife to a gun fight" when your life or reputation is at stake!

Hauptjäger

--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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DucofDeath3
.224 member

Reged: 31/12/03
Posts: 8

Re: Why big bores? [Re: Hauptjäger]
#6609 - 07/01/04 02:27 AM

I did not mean to upset anybody with my question.

I dont see the need to overdo things. If you can shoot a deer with a .243 as long as you shoot it well, why hit it with something so much bigger? Sure it may mean you have to get closer or wait for the deer to move into a better position but isn't thats what hunting is about?

I havent hunted in Africa or buffalo but they have been taken with lots of smaller calibers. 7x57, 7.62s, 8mm. A lot of the farmers there seem to use these sorts of rifles and do shoot buffalo and lion on their farms. They shoot their rifles all the time and know how they shoot. They also know the annimals they are shooting.

A lkot of the early exploeres also seemed to use smaller calibers. If it was so difficult how come they came through to write up their stories?

Meat damage is lessend by using mil ammo. I use it in my ,223 all the time. In the .243 a 90 grain solid also does the same job. Also results in minimum pelt damages.

I dont want to upset people but I do have a differnet opinion. I am willing to discuss and learn. I am interested in trying out some new ideas and was thinking of 44 or 444 in a lever action. I also think the ,270 is a good no bs rifle to own.

Edited by DucofDeath3 (07/01/04 02:32 AM)

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6618 - 07/01/04 05:03 AM

"Ducofdeath", (from the movie UNFORGIVEN ),

First off, I have no problem with useing a 243Win with hot 100 gr bullet loads for Muledeer, it is one of my all time favortes for that purpose, and have killed a couple of elk with the 243 as well, but I certainly wouldn't reccomend a 243 Win to anyone as an elk rifle! In most states where elk are wild, the 243 is illegal, anyway.

In the second place 7X57, 8x57, and 7.62(.308) are illegal to shoot lion, and buffalo in every country where they exist. Top this off by the fact that full patch millitery bullets are illegal for game animals in the Continental US. And in many states .22 centerfires, and 6mms (243) are illegal for deer, as well! There are real reason for these laws, and any one who knew anything about ethical hunting, would have already known that!

You are right, you do have the right to your own opinion, and you also have the right to act on that opinion, as long as it is legal, but in the examples you have offered, most are illegal, in most places,some in all places, and simply because they are legal in some places, doesn't make them a proper round for the game you state! That, my friend, is "FACT!"

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39261
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#6623 - 07/01/04 10:20 AM

In reply to:

"Why Big Bores?"

On large game you really don't have a choice. All this talk of shooting eg cape buffalo with military calibres, was probably done many years ago. And probably becuase most of the famrers you mention had no choice - ie that's their only rifle. I'm sure if they had a decent larger calibre at hand that is what they would choose to use.

Because it increases the safety factor. Shooting something dangerous with a marginal or inadequate calibre is asking for trouble.

On medium game because they are fun! Why not?

You asked some questions on the pig hunt Orion and I recently did. To do it differently. Sure a lot of Aussie hunters go out with 22s and 6mm's as well as 308s etc. We wanted to do it differently as this is a website with a big bore leaning.

A lot of Aussie hunters who go overseas also do the same thing. Practice, practice, paractice. What better way to practice than on running living moving targets. Much better than paper punching.

I hope you enjoy the site.

If you don't mind, what part of the world are you from?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: mickey]
#6716 - 09/01/04 06:57 PM

In reply to:

Sometimes it is just fun to blow the crap out of something.

BINGO!

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_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Scartozi
.275 member

Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#11492 - 14/03/04 11:23 AM

I guess it depends on what you are hunting. There is a big difference in shooting something that just wants to run away and shooting something that wants to, and will, eat you if you don't take it out with the first or second shot.

I've never heard of a hunter getting mauled, trampled, or killed by a deer if he missed his first shot. If I had the the chance I would use my 458 lott on groundhog!...good practice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a law that you can not hunt dangerous game in Africa with anything less than a 375?

Would you feel comfortable taking that 223 up to Alaska and going Grizzly hunting! Just my 2cents.

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Gibbs505
.333 member

Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 442
Loc: BC, Canada

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#11496 - 14/03/04 01:45 PM

First of all, why not?

Secondly, the smaller rounds leave little margin for error when shooting any game. A larger round, less margin for error.

Third, practise, practise, practise. With any round that you are shooting.

Fourth, bullet placement, frequently, and it doses not matter in what particular manner you are hunting, there is little time to place a deliberate shot and the larger the bullet, the greater margin of error in a shot to be taken quickly.

fifthr, they are fun!!

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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luv2safari
.400 member

Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#11498 - 14/03/04 03:14 PM

Duco...

You remind me of the guy who walked into my store and wanted to but a 44 magnum for a side arm in Alaska. I asked him why...he said for protection against bears.

I pulled out a 2 1/2" S&W Mdl 19 and told him to buy that, instead. After listening to his insults for about ten minutes I told him to shut up and listen to reason.

He calmed down, then asked what I was trying to pull on him. I just laughed and told him that the short barrel revolver was far better to whip out in a hurry and get into his mouth so he could BLOW HIS FUCKING BRAINS OUT!

That's about all the good a handgun would do him...after he pissed the bear off real good by shooting it with a handgun.

You know, I always hear about the elk and such that guys have taken with their 6mm's and 25-06...but they NEVER tell anyone about the ones they emptied a magazine into that got away and died two mountains away...never recovered.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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BigBore2
.224 member

Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 12
Loc: central Tx. USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#11501 - 14/03/04 04:25 PM

Size does matter, in alot of areas of life!

Regards Mike

--------------------
Whiskey for my men & beer for my horses!

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Elias
.224 member

Reged: 23/03/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Finland

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#12321 - 24/03/04 08:13 AM

I have 22-250 cal really accurate,modified Tikka LSA-55 rifle.
I also hunt with it,mainly birds of long distance, NEWER bigger animals than foxes.For moose I use 30-06 which is my main hunting cal,also 45-70 in some cases.We have bears also, when I partisipate in bearhunt,I take my .375HH and I really dont feel owergunned.

Elias

--------------------
As long thers lead in the air,thers hope.

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cr500
.300 member

Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 213
Loc: Singleton ,Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#12341 - 24/03/04 11:28 AM

Main reason is because we want to. Like Mickey says ,sometimes you want to blow the crap out of something. The fact is that most of my bigbore shooting (and I suppose it is the same with a few others out here,)
is done at charging ant hills/ termite mounts or just plain old paper. It is like asking why people want 600HP cars or 160HP motor bikes and so on.
As for serious hunting, Ive never gone after dangerous game,YET. When I do ,I would rather have a good 458 Lott with me than a smaller 375. I know lots of great hunters get by with a 375 ,but I would be more comfortable with a bigger hammer in case my bullet placement is not as good as theirs. If it starts running quickly towards or away from me ,then a bigger bore will be handy there. My 458 Lott will be more dual purpose, using 300 GN barness bullets which are the same BC as a 180gn 308 bullet and going at about 2600-2700 fps ,should have a similar trajectory to a 30-06. This should be good on pigs,camels,scrub bulls,sambar deer ,then go to Africa and be used as an only gun for Wathogs to Zebra,Wilderbeast and Kudu. If a Cape Buff pokes its head out ,then I can slip some 500 gn bullets in the mag. Big bores can realy be versatile.

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WyoJoe
.300 member

Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 234
Loc: Cheyenne, WY USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#12343 - 24/03/04 11:41 AM

In answer to your question. Why not big bores? I am the guy who likes to shoot prairie dogs with a .375 H&H. Season 2002 I took a little mule deer buck with the .375. It flat knocked him off his feet. He went MAYBE 120 lbs. on the hoof. I have killed deer & antelope deader than yesterday's puppy love with a .243. For me it is what ever stikes my fancy at the time. I am blessed t o be able to use just about anything I want. Last season I took my deer & antelope with an old .30-30.

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There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.

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cooch
.300 member

Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW

Re: Why big bores? [Re: WyoJoe]
#13595 - 16/04/04 08:49 PM

Just been rereading "Pack & Rifle" by Phil Holden. As a pro deer culler in NZ he found that .222s were very popular - for a while.
They certainly did the job, up to a point. But most found after a while that just too many deer were getting away wounded.
Use enough gun!

Also have a copy of Elmer Keith's "Hell, I was There!"
Elmer liked rifles of all sizes, used .300H&H mag quite a bit. Now that may seem large to some, but it isn't a "big bore".
What he really did seem to major on was long bullets with a high sectional density and good construction. He gave up using smaller calibres on animals larger than elk for one simple reason.... experience. Mostly bad experience.
And I don't think anyone here is going to suggest that Elmer was lacking in marksmanship skills and hunter savvy.

Cheers....... Peter
<rabbits with a .444>

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"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: Why big bores? [Re: cooch]
#13611 - 17/04/04 04:32 AM

It sure depends on what your hunting...I have killed a lot of deer with the 222, 223 and 22-250 and they suck, they blood shoot way to much meat IMO, and one small mistake and you have a bad tracking job on your hands...

A 338 with a 300 gr. Woodleigh or a 375 with a solid or 350 gr. woodleigh will just cut a 40 caliber hole through them and kill them just as fast without the meat waste..Same with a 220 gr. 30-06 or even a 180 gr.

I can take any shot the game offers going away or coming and you must take only broadside shots with light fast calibers..

I think its mostly an ego trip when folks claim the small bores are all thats needed for big game and I have seen these self styled experts wound a lot of game over the years.....

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M82A1Barret50Cal
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Reged: 12/04/04
Posts: 96
Loc: ACT, Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: atkinson6]
#13947 - 25/04/04 05:24 PM

I agree that it doesn't matter if it's overkill (if there is such a thing), all that matters is that the animal dies quickly and then you have fun!!! Hunting with small cals is fun, hunting with big cals IMO is even more fun because you can watch the animal go splat. Ok I admit it is a bit sick, but watching an animal that was taken with a cal too small die in agony is worse that a quick grusome death. Also some people just enjoy having their shoulder hurt by recoil

, hahaha.

M82A1

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sbs470
.333 member

Reged: 15/04/04
Posts: 378
Loc: Sheffield Tasmania

Re: Why big bores? [Re: M82A1Barret50Cal]
#13954 - 25/04/04 09:52 PM

I've alwasys thought of it this way.
Jump in the ring with a featherweight, bantam or lightweight
and you'll go a couple of rounds and they will knock you out eventually.
do the same thing with a heavy weight.1st round KO.Get the job done properly first time.

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475Guy
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Posts: 1088
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: sbs470]
#13960 - 25/04/04 11:42 PM

I've watched this thread go on for a bit. Here's my .02, because I can.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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ridgerunner_ky
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Reged: 23/01/05
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Loc: Kentucky, U.S.

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#27180 - 03/03/05 04:49 AM

I have used the 243 a lot and I love it. But it's a deer and varmint gun. Can you kill elk or moose or whatever with a 243 sure you can. Is it recommended, I dont think so. If you got thousands of dollars invested in a hunt why would you want to take a chance with an inadequate caliber when it may be the only chance you will ever get. Doesnt make good sense.

If something bites back I want the biggest thing that I can shoot accurately.

Would you want to get in the car with someone who is to drunk to drive? You might make it you might not. Same thing if you go hunting a big brown bear with a 243 you might make it and you might become lunch

So why would you want to take that chance with your life hunting with an inadequate gun?? Especially when you can buy a cz up to about a 458 lott for about 650 to 700 dollars brand new

Edited by ridgerunner_ky (03/03/05 04:51 AM)

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SAHUNT
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: ridgerunner_ky]
#27182 - 03/03/05 05:44 AM

USE ENOUGH GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robert Ruark

If I'm not mistaken..........................make a lot of sense to me.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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ridgerunner_ky
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Loc: Kentucky, U.S.

Re: Why big bores? [Re: SAHUNT]
#27208 - 03/03/05 06:25 PM

Exactly!!!

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wombat
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Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#27213 - 03/03/05 10:04 PM

This is presumably a deliberately provocative posting.Only a complete Wally would think that all hunting could be accomplished with those calibres.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#27216 - 04/03/05 01:27 AM

Ducodeath,in south east asia in the 60's,America's weapon of choice was a 223(5.56)Ar 15,M16.
Australias choice was a 7.62 (308)L1A1.
I will stand behind a rubber tree and give you 5 shots at me with your 223,then you stand behind a rubber tree and I will do the same using a 308.
MAKE SURE YOUR INSURANCE IS PAID UP AND YOUR WILL IS UP TO DATE !!!!!
STUPID BLOODY STATMENT YOU MADE.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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new_guy
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
#27223 - 04/03/05 04:41 AM

In reply to:

Ducodeath,in south east asia in the 60's,America's weapon of choice was a 223(5.56)Ar 15,M16.
Australias choice was a 7.62 (308)L1A1.

That’s because the US military determined that a wounded soldier was more detrimental to an enemy than a dead soldier.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member

Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: new_guy]
#27234 - 04/03/05 01:16 PM

The dead dont recover or shoot back!!!!

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Nframe
.275 member

Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 79
Loc: United States

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#27245 - 04/03/05 04:19 PM

I don't know where to even start with this ??? If small bore's were the best for DG why do PH carry the largest calibers they can handle. Marksmanship is a huge part of it but put out an Elephants, bears, Boars eye with a 22 LR all you're going to have is a very pissed critter that is going to try and even the score. It's better to have "too much" than not enough!!

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ridgerunner_ky
.224 member

Reged: 23/01/05
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Loc: Kentucky, U.S.

Re: Why big bores? [Re: new_guy]
#27254 - 04/03/05 07:33 PM

new guy,
where did you come up with that at??

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new_guy
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
#27260 - 05/03/05 09:04 AM

In reply to:

The dead dont recover or shoot back!!!!

No, I didn't say they did. It was a military thoery - but ask youself:

How many soldiers does it take to help a wounded soldier?

How many soldiers does it take to help a dead soldier?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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new_guy
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: ridgerunner_ky]
#27262 - 05/03/05 09:31 AM

In reply to:

new guy,
where did you come up with that at??

ridgerunner ky, I'm sure I remember it from a History class at some point, and although I don't have a copy of the Military's official report, it's pretty commonly known.

here's a link to the refrence of the theory at Military.com

Quote:
What it all boils down to is that when the 5.56mm cartridge was first introduced to U.S. combat rifles, it was adopted because of its size and its fit with the U.S. "shoot-to-wound" philosophy of the time. While the 7.62mm NATO round used in the M-14 is much more powerful than the 5.56mm bullet, it is also much larger; a soldier can carry twice as many 5.56mm bullets as he can 7.62mm. In extended combat operations (wars lasting years), it was also estimated that wounded combatants would require more logistical support than dead ones -- with this in mind, the U.S. adopted the 5.56 round, since if the bullet did not kill outright, it would certainly cause a serious enough injury that the casualty would be hospitalized for a significant amount of time.
End Quote.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: Why big bores? [Re: new_guy]
#27275 - 05/03/05 10:12 PM

This year I took my .357H&H DR deer hunting, did not get a one, but picked off a squirle(sp) Next year I'll be taking my 470 NE DR.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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k80
.333 member

Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.

Re: Why big bores? [Re: bonanza]
#27327 - 06/03/05 01:05 PM

The only time my 375 was destructive
on deer was when I missed and hit the
the spine. Yes it made a "MUCH" bigger hole.
It usually pokes a quarter{US}size hole
through both sides.

Ken
San Antonio

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: new_guy]
#27611 - 11/03/05 04:16 AM

In reply to:

The dead dont recover or shoot back!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------

No, I didn't say they did. It was a military thoery - but ask youself:

How many soldiers does it take to help a wounded soldier?

How many soldiers does it take to help a dead soldier?

The use of full patch bullets was a rule set forth by the Geneva convention. This was set forth in 1864 dealing with soldiers that were sick, wounded, or dead on the battle field! This was amended it about 1900 to include the use of full patch bullets(no Softpoints), in war. The idea was that war is not designed to "KILL" the enemy, but to put him out of order to fight!

Americans are of the mind there will be no soldier left behind, wounded, or dead! This isn't the case with every enemy we have fought in modern times. They habitually leave ther wounded to die, and in many cases booby-trap their dead, for American soldiers to be blown up, when they are moved!

The reason the American army went to the 223, is because the rank, and file recruit today can't shoot heavy kicking rifles, and the ammo is too heavy to carry. There is one thing you need to learn! The armed forces is not a good place to find out what rifles are best for anything! The war weapons today, are used simply to fill the air with bullets, hopeing some of them will hit something!

The weapons are stamped out jumk, that the design is dictated by ease of manufacture, and cost.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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new_guy
Sponsor

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Posts: 581
Loc: Texas

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#27617 - 11/03/05 05:40 AM

agreed, i was trying to explain the theory of that era to Alan.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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cr500
.300 member

Reged: 11/10/03
Posts: 213
Loc: Singleton ,Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#27734 - 13/03/05 05:05 PM

With the speed limits in most countries ,why do people buy cars which will do twice the speed limit? Why do people drool over Ferraris or supercharged V8s? Same thing with big bores. I dont hunt big game much but I shoot big bore rifles a lot. If some is good ,more is better, sometimes.

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ThomasEdwards
.300 member

Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: cr500]
#27849 - 17/03/05 02:38 AM

...actually, to get to the legal speed limit in 4.2 - 4.7 seconds...preferably using naturally aspired bored-out big block engines...

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Marty
.300 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Darwin. NT, Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#27933 - 18/03/05 10:26 AM

In reply to:

Americans are of the mind there will be no soldier left behind, wounded, or dead!

This is really a bit of BS propaganda that seems to have crept into the US military psyche in the post Vietnam era. The US is notorious for leaving people behind and thats why they stick to that mantra. If you tell a lie often enough it becomes truth.

The US has left people behind at just about every war since WW2. In the Phillipines it was as a result of unfortunate circumstances and military neccesity, but in Korea and Vietnam it was out of political expiediency and that is pretty apalling. Somalia folks were left behind again. And it is suspected that it may have again occured at the end of Gulf War 1. The portrayal of "Leave no one behind" only exists because the US has continually done so. I'm not trying to flame even though it looks like that, but the myth in no way reflects the reality.

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__________________________________

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: Why big bores? [Re: luv2safari]
#28590 - 30/03/05 06:32 AM

I have shot a lot of deer and antelope with the 223, 22-250 and .243..they are hamburger machines, they bloodshot the hell out of a deer size animal and ruin a lot of meat..

A 375 or 416 will bloodshoot a baseball size area and punch a caliber size hole in and out and kill very quickly..take your pick...

I have killed Buffalo with the 7x57, 8x57, 30-06 and .308 and they do not die very quickly unless the brain or spine is hit with a solid. and sometimes the spine shot doesn't work as well as expected..A heart lung shot Buffalo with one of the lighter calibers just simply lives too long and if that length of time is expended on hunting you then you have problems..Many of those farmers etc. that you speak of ended up pushing up daisies or recovering from wounds, otherwise all the professional hunters in Africa would be using small caliber rifles...

Bottom line is believe only half of what you read and hear on killing game animals, but use enough gun, or someday you will loose a fine game animal because you got too cocky...

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45LCshooter
.224 member

Reged: 15/06/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Kiowa, AL USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#33183 - 16/06/05 03:07 PM

Easier to detect misfires....

--------------------
All that's gold does not glitter. Not all those who wander are lost.

--J.R.R. Tolkien

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: 45LCshooter]
#33186 - 16/06/05 03:37 PM

Bottom line is believe only half of what you read and hear on killing game animals, but use enough
gun, or someday you will loose a fine game animal because you got too cocky...

Cocky is the right word - So well said.

Sounds like 6.5mm on Water Buffalo ......................

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Peterb
.333 member

Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: Why big bores? [Re: 500Nitro]
#34262 - 03/07/05 03:27 PM

I thought that was the Duck of Death.

Anyways, I started out with the 300W'by and moved both lower and bigger as any gun nut should. I've shot everything with everything. Sometimes smaller kills faster...on smallish game. Bigger kills faster on big game. When game is dangerous, what would you really pick?

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500Nitro
.450 member

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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Why big bores? [Re: Peterb]
#34264 - 03/07/05 04:07 PM

Peterb

"When game is dangerous, what would you really pick? "

I thought going after an Elephant with a 22 or 222 might be interesting
but I'll wait and see how NitroX does with 6.5 on Buffalo first ................. !!!

500 Nitro

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rgp
.333 member

Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC

Re: Why big bores? [Re: 500Nitro]
#34267 - 03/07/05 04:54 PM

I think a more appropriate question is why would anyone pick a smallbore?

Smallbore shooters tend to claim a flat trajectory and ability to kill something a million miles away, and most of those stories are gross miscalculation of range...but even for long range use, they are inferior to big bores because the only constant at long range is bullet weight and diameter. The "low recoil" bit is theoretically correct but go lift some weights to work on your shoulder if the recoil is bothersome. It is something that can be easily worked up to and then if you want you can play with a .30/06 like it was a .22. The small rifles may weigh less, but the difference is not that significant and ease of carrying the firearm normally seems more dependent on how well it is balanced rather than weight.

Big bore rifles I've had have generally been more accurate than the peewee guns, the big bore guns have all had better balance than the smallbore guns, and with a .375 or a .458 you can pick one load and use that one load on anything. Even the .45-70 Marlins I've had have been more accurate than most smallbore rifles I've owned.

I don't own a double rifle yet but am planning to get one so I can't comment on big bore doubles (that is why I've pestered several of you with questions on double rifles).

Richard

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Peterb
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Re: Why big bores? [Re: 500Nitro]
#34307 - 04/07/05 01:06 PM

Bell of Africa did well on elephant with the 6.5 x 54 but later said with their changed habits, he would prefer a 375 H&H. I have a Searcy 470 double which would be my choice. That is only, of course, because I do not have a 45-70 ;-) But with deer, I am as confident with my 6mm Rem as my 300 W'by. One must be realistic or one may be dead.

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458RugerNo1
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Posts: 24
Loc: Mtns of the Desert Southwest, ...

Re: Why big bores? [Re: atkinson6]
#34787 - 18/07/05 06:59 AM

Ray pretty much has said it all...

As for me, I simply like the heavy calibers. Their recoil is not an issue to me, in either .375 H&H or .458 Win, and they're fun to shoot and load for. It's really just that simple - they're a blast to shoot.

Yes, I have a .243 Win and like it very much, it's a sweet little rifle that I have for 'yotes, jacks, javelina, etc. When deer season rolls around or for hogs or anything larger than deer I reach for my Ruger RSM .375 H&H most of the time. It's a beautiful rifle, it's accurate and simply a favorite of mine.

All the comments ref blooshot meat are quite true... Nearly all high velocity traditional "deer" cartridges do more meat damage than the heavy calibers do. Also depending what round you're using and the bullet you've selected you may be limited as to your shot angles, placement, etc. With a .375 or .458 there's no such thing as a shot I can't take if it's within range - no matter what size animal you're talking about - deer or moose, grizz, etc. That big, modest-velocity slug will punch end to end if necessary.

To those who are recoil shy and have trouble placing shots well with the heavier calibers, yes it's probably best to stay with cartridges they can shoot well. Shot placement is the most important single factor in dropping game. However for those who are not bothered by recoil it gives an advantage that the lighter calibers cannot give.

Also, for those who do hunt dangerous game and want to learn and know their rifle instinctively, there's nothing like getting out with it and USING it frequently and as often as possible. Target ranges are often very limited as to what you can do as far as training. For sighting in and benchrest work they're tops, but nothing beats getting out in the mountains or fields and shooting from kneeling, sitting or prone thru the grass, brush, over rocks, up and down hill, etc. So taking that .470 or .458 out at deer or elk season is a great way to train basically.

--------------------
God Bless old Elmer Keith!

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SeekHer
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Reged: 01/08/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada

Re: Why big bores? [Re: DucofDeath3]
#37502 - 15/09/05 04:48 AM

I think I'll ask you the reverse of your question. Why do you use such puny calibers for your hunting, isn't that underkill?

Many places have outlawed the use of .22 cal on deer sized and larger game animals...the reason, too many crippled animals.

I expect that you use your .223 for varmints and your .243 for where deer and antelope play...absolutely nothing wrong with that...thousands have done the exact same thing...I sometimes, actually mostly, use a 6.5 X 55 for deer.

The term knock down power comes to play here. Would you take a shot at a 240 point/14 count deer, standing nearly, not quite butt/rear/tail end facing you...the only shot you've got--though some very light brush--with your .243. shooting for the bullet to travel the length of the body, from just ahead of the rear leg, behind the rib cage to the chest...You could shoot but the bullet would never reach any of the vital organs...someone shooting a .300 would make it...a .338 has a much better chance..and with a .375, no problem...but the impact of the bullet upon the nervous system, with a heavier bullet would, using a writer's term, cement him right there, probably, wouldn't take but a few steps (staggering) and go down. Surprisingly there is little meat damage but the internal organs are sure a mess.

I was hunting moose with a buddy who was using a .340 or a .378 Weatherby--can't remember which--and placed seven (7) shots, yes 7 shots, his last 7, through the heart/lung area of a standing broad side moose at about 120 yards distance. The beastie kept on eating for about 15 minutes, took a few steps and dropped.

I was using a Browning BLR in .358 Win Mag and met my moose at about 90 yards, placed one round in the heart/lung area, he trotted about 25 yards and piled up.

A First Nations (Indian) fiend of mine, canoed to about 20 yards from his moose and placed one in the brain. The moose grunted, took a step and keeled over. He was shot with a .22 LR standard velocity solid point--highly illegal, by the way.

What I'm saying is that there is good or bad stories, confirming or denying the greatness or lameness, of either small, very fast bullets or slow, big bullets.

But we shouldn't cast aspersions on our fellow hunters/shooters just because they are using something different than us. We have enough problems and hassles from the anti gun/hunting people as it is! Why add more? Why add more fuel for themto flame? Give them something to divide us! Make their stand more powerful!

In reply to:

--------------------
There is a certain type of mentality that thinks
if you make certain inanimate objects illegal
their criminal misuse will disappear!

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Scott
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Posts: 89
Loc: Florida, USA

Re: Why big bores? [Re: SeekHer]
#37527 - 15/09/05 12:41 PM

Amen to that.

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: Why big bores? [Re: Scott]
#37531 - 15/09/05 12:56 PM

This is one old thread.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Gibbs505
.333 member

Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 442
Loc: BC, Canada

Re: Why big bores? [Re: bonanza]
#37541 - 15/09/05 03:22 PM

Indeed!

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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