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empirevr
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H&H 10 bore NITRO???
      #62977 - 24/09/06 08:41 PM

Hi,thought i'd post this as i do not quite understand it........

www.empiregunsight.co.uk

What is this 10 bore/.775 nitro rifle? if nitro,is it the superior puncher of the famed .700 NE???

I have heard of the existence of nitro bore rifles,but still find them a little confusing.......

Are they not a little impossible to fire????

Ben


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gatsby
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #62981 - 25/09/06 02:50 AM

Empire,
The Holland 10 bore Paradox was usually loaded with 8 drams black and a 925gr/950gr bullet @ 1450fps. 10 bore Paradox guns made in the nitro era were regulated with 55gr revolver cordite and the same bullet and producing the same ballistics. These guns weighed 13lbs.and had an.805 bore diameter. The above load will give approx 170TKO value (someone help me out if you have ballistics program with this calculation) and 160lbs of recoil.
The weight of the gun and barrels should give some indication as to what the load was or should be if no data is in the case or on the gun.
Frank Findlow's excelent article on 12bore, bore rifles has several charts comparing modern loads to various bore rifles. The DGJ vol.13 issue3 if you have it or can find it..

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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500grains
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #62982 - 25/09/06 02:52 AM

Ballistically it will be on par with a 10 gauge shotgun shooting slugs. Not on par with the 700 Nitro Express, or any other nitro express cartridge. In the old days it would have been a lion and plains game gun, and ok for buffalo with proper shot placement only. Elephant were taken with the 8 bore and 4 bore, but even that was dicey.

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gatsby
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500grains]
      #62983 - 25/09/06 03:37 AM

500G.
I somewhat disagree. There are a number of advatages with nitro cartridges but performance and penetration arenot among them. Holland supplied their 8 and 10 paradoxes with a steel shanked bullet covered in lead allowing them to pass through the paradox chock. The penetration with these bullets must have been tremendous. Holland descibed these rifles as elephant guns into the 1900's.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (25/09/06 03:39 AM)


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empirevr
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: gatsby]
      #62987 - 25/09/06 04:50 AM

Hi all.

Thanks for the info.

I had indeed wondered!!! A 775 ne would be impossible to fire.......surely?

'Grains, one of the famous writers said that 10 bore was good for any game on earth, have heard from others saying the 12 bore is an elephant rifle, and have even come across the 450x3 bpe being used,with clever shots and good bullets.

But,i can only imagine,that those who failed werent as good a shots as those who did not fail.

Seems the big big beasts can be put down with a Mannlicher 6.5 if shot precisely,and yet can take a 4 bore round if shot hurriedly,or badly.

Seems a real mix. Very confusing i must say!

Sounds like a real kicker.......

Anyone able to give an idea what the 577x3" BPE round kicks like? Thanks

Ben


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gatsby
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #62993 - 25/09/06 08:42 AM

The 577 BPE is 6 to 7 dram 10.5 to 12 lb gun with recoil less than an 8, 10 or 12 conical bore rifle.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: gatsby]
      #62994 - 25/09/06 09:16 AM

Thanks Gatsby

Any idea where i can get hold of a book or such aimed at this cartridge? or perhaps at black powder express rounds in general?

I want one that is basically pre-nitro period, or in other words at the time when these rounds were most proliferant.

Cheerio

Ben


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gatsby
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #62997 - 25/09/06 09:41 AM

Graeme Wright's great book Shooting The British double rifle, Cartridges of The World by Barnes or a complete set of Double Gun Journels from 1989 to present.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: gatsby]
      #62998 - 25/09/06 09:47 AM

Thankyou

Got/had the first one.....God may have lost it in a fire.

No period litterature on the subject?

i.e. express and bore rifle shooting, 1885...or such?

Thanks

Ben


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500Nitro
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #62999 - 25/09/06 10:07 AM


EMPIRE

SAFARI BY BIRTLE I THINK IS ONE BOOK.

I have a few excess in my collection which
when I retrieve it from storage I will look through
and PM you.

500 Nitro


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500grains
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #63000 - 25/09/06 10:15 AM

empirev,

Anyone who says a 12 bore paradox gun is elephant medicine has been out in the sun way too long. If a frontal brain shot is presented, better run.

Also note that all of the bore rifles instantly became obsolete when the 450 NE was introduced. Heck, most of the old time hunters preferred the .303 to the bore rifles.


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empirevr
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #63001 - 25/09/06 10:16 AM

500Nitro

Thankyou kindly sir, much appreciated.

Was getting worried that bar the adventurer's stories, black powder rifles were a lost mystery.(apart from our modern use and understandings)

By the by,i recollect of a superb website in Oz, which had a lot of bp and nitro guns, on many pages.

Cant remember its name,and cant find it either.

Used to have great prices.......and maybe 20-30 DR's on there at once.

I am in talks with a mr Farrugia at the moment.

Cheerio,and thanks again

Ben


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400NitroExpress
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: gatsby]
      #63002 - 25/09/06 10:19 AM

In reply to:

"There are a number of advantages with nitro cartridges, but performance and penetration are not among them."




500 grains is right and the above statement is pure fantasy. Yes, the bore rifles were, IN THEIR TIME, probably the best choice for elephant, and were thus touted as such by many hunters. However, that was a time when there was nothing available that was really ideal for such game.

The advent of Cordite and nickel-jacketed bullets permitted a combination of velocity, sectional density, and bullet integrity that had never been possible before. This gave the Nitro Expresses a markedly superior standard of performance, especially in terms of reliable penetration, and these were the first rifles that were truly ideal for thick-skinned dangerous game. Had it not been so badly outclassed in it's only really useful application, the bore rifle would certainly have lingered for quite a while. The reality is that the Nitro Express relegated it to extinction in a phenominally brief time span.

Bore rifles are wonderful pieces of history and a trip down Nostalgia Lane to shoot and hunt with, but lets not lose touch with reality.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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empirevr
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500grains]
      #63003 - 25/09/06 10:24 AM

'grains...

But what of a 12 bore rifle? the 10 bore was certainly used......

Actually the BPE rounds were too,but you have me on the paradox.....

The 577x3 BP was used by some famous chaps against pretty much everything, but then im guessing with great shot placement and such.

One very famous hunter used an 8 bore,while his packer used a 577x3. 6 ton bull ele was knocked down by the 577,but got back up again. note that this was a hurried shot,not a specific aim.

8 bore gave clean kill.

Very confusing stuff........seems sometimes as though this period,the most prolific for big game hunting, is a bit of a dark area......we hear tales of huge and tiny guns being used.

As merely an acceptable shot,i would want a 4 bore for ele!(of the bp rounds) and yet if i was good i would use a medium round i guess......just as we use 375 H&H today.......

Ben


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500Nitro
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #63004 - 25/09/06 10:24 AM


I am in talks with a mr Farrugia at the moment.

About Double Rifles ? Then Good luck !

Will send over a list when I have it.


500 Nitro


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empirevr
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #63005 - 25/09/06 10:33 AM

500Nitro

Yes indeed,know him??

Anyway, i'd agree that nitro's are the step up in many ways, but the BP bore guns have the history,and come in some huge rounds. (4 bore)

Cheerio enjoy your guns guys!

Ben


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500Nitro
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: empirevr]
      #63006 - 25/09/06 10:54 AM


eMPIRE

Yes I know him and have done for a while.
He knows FA about DR's.

Also, a friend of mine who now owns 3 of my DR's in the UK
raises his eyebrows at some of the things he says.
I get reports by email - they make me laugh.

500 Nitro



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gatsby
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63008 - 25/09/06 11:16 AM

Why do you think that penetration was problematic with the bore guns? Do you think rifle weight 9 to 10 lbs for a nitro gun vs 15 to20+lbs for the borerifle or recoil 60lbs for nitro vs 200+ for the bore rifle had anythingto do with the demise of the big bore guns? How about the better trajectory of nitro guns making those cartridges more versitle and enabling one to make longer shots on a larger variety of game? The nitro cartridges were also chambered in a larger variety of guns, bolt actions ect and were able to shoot a variety of projectiles. Yes for alot of reasons modern guns and ammo out classes the old warhorse blackpowder bore guns but their effect on game is any thing but fantasy.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (25/09/06 02:49 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: gatsby]
      #63019 - 25/09/06 08:38 PM



The next issue of "Hatari Times" no 21 may just have just some of the sort of thing you are looking for, from this graphic.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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JohnTheGreek
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: NitroX]
      #63023 - 25/09/06 09:33 PM

Below is quote from Baker's Wild Beasts and their Ways discussing the suitability of a .577 BPE loaded with hardened lead solids.

"All hunters of dangerous animals should accustom themselves to the use of large rifles, and never handle anything smaller than a '577, weighing 12 lbs., with a solid 650 grain hard bullet, and at the least 6 drams of powder. I impress this upon all who challenge the dangers of the chase in tropical climates. No person of average strength will feel the weight of a 12 lb. rifle when accustomed to its use. Although this is too small as a rule for heavy game, it is a powerful weapon when the bullet is hardened by a tough mixture of antimony or quicksilver. A shoulder shot from such a rifle will kill any animal less than an elephant, and the front shot, or temple, or behind the ear, will kill any Asiatic elephant. I would not recommend so small a bore for heavy thick-skinned game, but the '577 rifle is a good protector, and you need not fear any animal in your rambles through the forest when thus armed"

I think this would more than imply at least the suitability (though certainly not ideal nature) of a 10 or even 12 bore loaded with conicals on all game up to and including Asiatic Elephant. Naturally, the four and eight bores would be theoretically fine ("theoretically" due to reasons which will follow) for ALL African species. It is, important, of course to remember that Baker wasn't paying trophy fees either so the incentives (both financial and ethical) to follow up wounded game were quite a bit less than they are now. The impact to which this allowed him to overstate the efficacy of various calibres is naturally open to debate.

Now, why the demise of the bore rifle? First, I would disagree with the point made that there was an immediate move away from BP bore guns to cordite. My guess is that most who could afford a .450 NE definitely bought one and used it for all their primary work. Still, when following up in thick cover, I'd bet substantial sums of money that for many a year most guys turned to their old 8 bore double or even eight or four bore front stuffer. Old hunting habits die hard and I would guess that then, just as today, people were made comfortable in tough situations by knowing that there was a big hole in the end of their barrel. Also, it seems very likely that this transition toward the .450NE was simply because it was lighter than what they were using and certainly quicker to load when compared to that big eight or four bore muzzleloader...not because the old timers thought it would necessarily work a whole lot better on game. Finally, I also attribute a lot of the success of the .450NE to the jacketed bullets rather than their providing velocity and energy in a small package. The "theoretical" power of bore rifles was made "dicey" by the fact that, in casting your own bullets, you controlled the quantity of lead in the pour relative to other metals. Not enough lead and your bullet is qoing to shatter on impact with an elephant skull. Too much lead and it's going to flatten out and underpenetrate that skull or hide for the opposite reason. Thats a bit of a tightrope to be walking when you're spending time in the bush and I'm sure more than a few guys fell off....but it doesn't mean the bore rifle can't or won't get the job done.

I'm not a numbers guy when it comes to this stuff but I have a tough time doubting the bore rifles on dangerous game when I look at the FPE, TKO, and SD figures for an eight bore conical.

JMHO,

John


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Double_Trouble
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: NitroX]
      #63025 - 25/09/06 09:56 PM

NitroX

That cover article you posted may be the closest i get to reading the next Hatari Times Mag.
It seems that the magazine is not published on a regular basis, but rather put out when enough stories are gathered.
it's a good rag when it comes, but it rarely comes.
does anyone else have difficulty in getting their subscription delivered to them?

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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Marrakai
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #63026 - 25/09/06 10:00 PM

empirevr:
As John the Greek says, not everyone agrees with 500grains and 400NitroExpress....

Here's a telling paragraph or two on the 8-bore which might interest you, penned well into the smokeless era by R.C.F. Maugham, inveterate big game hunter, and His Majesty's Consul-General at Beira, Portugese East Africa, after the turn of the previous century;

"....no hunter in his right senses should place his blind trust in such a weapon as even the .450 cordite rifle to extricate him from the thousand and one dangers by which he is liable from day to day to be confronted in Africa. I therefore unhesitatingly advocate, in addition to the most perfected type of modern high-velocity weapon which we are ever likely to see, the inclusion of a sound, heavy rifle intended for use at close range, the shock of whose bullet, even if it should not instantly kill, will assuredly be sufficiently great to disable or turn a charging beast."

His recommendation?
"..a heavy eight-bore, which I look upon as the ideal weapon par excellance for this purpose".

And "For those who do not have the strength to use a heavy 8-bore"?
"I would suggest the adoption of a 10 or at least of a 12-bore paradox throwing a 1 3/4 ounce bullet, driven by a charge of 5 drams of black powder. This, in capable hands, should be sufficiently powerful to produce the desired stopping effect".


Holland & Holland apparently agreed, listing their 10-bore paradox "for rhinoceros, bison, and other kinds of large game" in the 1904 catalogue, and the 10-bore nitro paradox "for elephant, rhinoceros, bison, and other kinds of large game" in the 1910-12 catalogue. The 8-bore paradox was listed simply as an "Elephant Gun" in both catalogues.

There is a surprising degree of ignorance about the capability of bore-guns and paradox guns amongst those who have never used them. Sadly, with the cost of a single elephant or rhino in today's Africa, very few modern hunters are ever likely to discover those capabilities for themselves.




--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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JohnTheGreek
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: Marrakai]
      #63033 - 25/09/06 11:16 PM

Marrakai,

Excellent citations! Also, I think you are spot on regarding the costs of Africa discouraging the use of these weapons....not because they don't work, of course, but because of their limited range. Nobody likes the idea of going home without their buffalo or elephant because terrain or whatever prohibited closing the distance to use a 4-bore. At that point, out comes the scoped .375 right? I've been there and done that so the rounds capabilities on game are not easy to experience even for those of us who really appreciate them.

Nitro,

Is that a recoil pad I see on the back end of that big bore front-stuffer? My God.

Best,

John


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500grains
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #63035 - 25/09/06 11:45 PM

Marrakai,

Have you shot an elephant with a 10 bore or 12 bore paradox gun, and if so how did it perform? If not, do you know anyone who has?

One look at Art Alphin's penetration index warns us of the disappointment we should expect when using bore guns.


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JohnTheGreek
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Re: H&H 10 bore NITRO??? [Re: 500grains]
      #63038 - 26/09/06 12:24 AM

Hi Dan,

How life in SLC? No offense but, being an academic, I am a real pro at the fallacy of "appealing to authority". That said, I think Art Alphins relative authority in this conversation (given the old timers cited above) is pretty much nil. Hey, I got an idea...lets go to Zim in the next year! I'll shoot an ele with my eight bore and we'll see how she works? If the bull dies....you (or Art Alphin ) can pay the trophy fee.

Seriously, hope all is well with you in "happy valley" Honestly, when I visit SLC, I sometimes wonder whether its your locale or mine that has the most religious fanatics. Anyway, I should be there around mid December if you'd like to get together and shoot.

Best,

John


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