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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
25-25 Stevens
      #62394 - 12/09/06 03:47 AM

Anyone here have any experience with the 25-25 Stevens cartridge?

I'm interested in running modern smokeless powder, the 117gr jsnrn bullet, and modern barrel steel. I'll be sleeving a back action toplever hammer 410 double to 25-25.

I'm interested in hearing about what loads, velocities, bullets, rates of twist yadda yadda yadda...


Thanks


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: tinker]
      #62432 - 13/09/06 09:59 AM

Tinker,

You building this on the little loplever backaction sxs you eluded to a while back? You dicide on a cape gun since you posted this in the single shot and cape gun section? Not that it really matters just being nosey.

Anyway I don't have my books with me here but what is the case capacity of the 25-25? I ask because I have load data on a 25 hornet and 256 Win mag.

Bill

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: banzaibird]
      #62434 - 13/09/06 12:00 PM

Bill-

I should have known I'd get you interested in this.
I'm going to go with the SxS rifle plan. I just put this up on the single shot list because the 25-25 Stevens is an old single shot cartridge, and like many have done with other old BP cartridges, I'm stealing the chamber and brass and using it for something a little different.
The gun I'm planning on using is really tiny, the standing breech is just about 1-7/16" wide.
I've gotta dig up my notes on this from last year, but I think I came to the conclusion that I should keep a 25000psi cap on the working loads, and if I do things will be just dandy.
I'll be using modern barrel steel and dove-tailing modern steel lumps.

I really like the 117gr SNRN hornady bullet. I called Hornady today, and they feel that the bullet will do it's trick down in the just sub-1500fps to 1700fps range no problem.
Sat with a friend today and ran it through an interior ballistics calculator and it looks like there are loads in the 17-1800fps range under 25000psi.
Still have more work to do before I'd start out with that one, but I'm enthusiastic about it and I want to see what the possibilities might turn out to be with that bullet.

86gr flat nose bullets may well end up being the thing to run.
I'd just much rather end up setting up with that long-for-caliber round nose bullet.

It'd make a really cute micro-express round. Looks like it'd be great on small game out to 100 yards too.


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: tinker]
      #62442 - 13/09/06 11:26 PM

Tinker,

This is exactly the type of projects that I enjoy. I was going to lay low for a while but I had to post to this one .

I'm at home so got to look through my stuff. I forgot I also have worked up loads for a 25-20. The problem is that I never went beyond 100 grain bullets in any of the small 25's I worked with. However doing some quick scrambling on your benchmarks of 1,500 FPS and 25,000 PSI I would carefully consider trying Accurate 1680 and Reloader #7. Just in some quick figuring you should be able to get about 1600+ from them and keep your pressure right.

I currently have my own use of old in a new way going. I took 9.3x74 cases opened them to a straight case like the old 400 Purdey and chambered some .411 barrels for the resulting case. Currently I'm using adjusted 405 win dies for reloading. Using 40,000 PSI as my limit I'm pushing 400 gr Woodleighs at 2,100 fps. The only problem I have now is Midway is out of Woodleigh 400's. I need to track some down before I can regulate the rifle. Currently I was just shooting it unregulated for load development. Basically a 405 win with an extra 1/2" of case.

Bill

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KWK
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Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Illinois
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: tinker]
      #62461 - 14/09/06 08:20 AM

Sorry, no direct experience, but I have some entries in my notebook that may be of use. The cartridge is of interest to me for another project I keep in the back of my mind.

Handloader No. 188 (sorry, I didn't record the date) had smokeless loads for both the .25-25 and the .28-30. Sorry, I didn't record the range of bullet weights, only that the author, Greg Matthews, had no trouble with smokeless loads in the .25-25. (He did with the .28-30, which he attributed to the long case fired with a small rifle primer).

The Single Shot Exchange has had some articles over the years. Some have reported trouble with fps swings in these slender cases. A reprint in SSE from a 1905 magazine reported glowing success in switching from BP to smokeless in the .25-25.

From the case description -- a cylindrical interior -- I estimate a capacity of 28 gn. Weighing a sample I have of Bertram brass, I estimate a bit over 31 gn; I don't have a resizing die, so I can't make an actual water estimate.

The Bertram brass is basic and must be resized. I recall (but did not record) one shooter in SSE complaining the Bertram stuff was wide at the base and extremely difficult to full length size. My old UMC sample is .301 at the base, and my Bertram sample is, sadly, stored back in the US. Rocky Mountain offers lathe turned .25-25 brass as well.

About 26 ksi would scale breech thurst nicely to the .410, which my notebook says runs at 14 ksi. Both the Powley Computer and QuickLOAD predict 1700 fps is possible at that pressure, and both hint that a reduced charge of 3031 or 4895 would do the trick.

If you can go to .22 Hornet pressures (low 40's), you should get close to factory .25-35 speeds with the 117 RN throated long, ie. .3 inches deep.

Hope there was something of use in this ramble.

Karl

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: KWK]
      #62462 - 14/09/06 09:14 AM

Karl-

Thanks for your response.
What you've noted is very similar to what a friend and I came to over fairly thorough research into this proposed project.

I'd briefly thought of flirting with the 40k range, but down in the sub 30k arena I'm designing with a much greater margin of safety. With a wee bit of jump into modern barrel steel I'm feeling good about muzzle velocities in the 1700fps range.
I see this thing as a micro express rifle with a tidy little express sight zeroed at 75 yards.
Should be hell on jackrabbits inside 100 yards and a lot of fun to shoot.


--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: tinker]
      #62471 - 14/09/06 10:50 AM

This brings up a question. What program do you all like for this type of foundation planning?

I ask because while the old standby Powley Computer is nice it only does Dupont powder and not even all of those. I also found that anything at the higher pressures 50,000 cup and above and 30,000 cup and below aren't very reliable when compared with reading from the Oehler model 43 and strain gauges. Speaking of whick Tinker these are a very valuable tool when you get to this type of tinkering .

Bill

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KWK
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Illinois
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: banzaibird]
      #62487 - 14/09/06 10:09 PM

banzaibird, for getting estimates of performance, I use both the Powley Computer and QuickLOAD. While I have a set of slide rule Powley's, I use instead a version I wrote from the equations presented in the NRA Handloading book, with corrections made from other sources. The equations in the slide rules are different, and probably represent an earlier attempy by Powley. The slide rules are not as accurate for predicting charges and can be downright dangerous.

Not having a strain gauge rig, I had to compare Powley results to published pressure data, from Hodgdon, Lyman, IMR, etc. I find exactly what you did, that Powley's pressure estimations are off as you near 50,000 CUP and are not reliable below 30,000 CUP as well.

For case capacity estimation in a wildcat, I use a calculator based on an idea Ken Howell gives in his big book on cartridge conversions. It's linked from the Powley Computer just cited.

QuickLoad is more reliable than Powley, but its author acknowledges accuracy falls off at lower pressures. Frankly, I think the Powley does a better job in this range.

As for powder selection, no software tool seems to be able to distinguish between similar powders. By similar powders, I mean those near each other in any of the published tables of "burning rates." I think only with a strain gauge can one sort out minor differences. Unfortuantely, since minor difference are what separate a top load from the average loads, I believe no software can safely predict the powder for top performance. I take what the software says and drop about 5% in fps.

Powder selection can, it seems to me, be aided by studying load book data for similar cartridges. I elaborate on this on another link from my Powley Computer. It involves computing something like bullet SD, but for case capacity instead.

Karl

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banzaibird
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Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: KWK]
      #62488 - 14/09/06 10:38 PM

Karl,

Thanks for the great post. Also thanks for the link to your site. I use the old slide rule still. This will be a great benefit.

If you can track one down I highly recommend the Oehler 43. They are a great system to work with. I usually try to find a powder that will give me the performance level I want at the lowest pressure. Even if the other pressures are in the safe working limit of the rifle. I usually don't try to push performance higher by use of the strain gauge. However that is where you can truly get your great loads. When you can push the bullet 200fps faster and still be at the same pressure as most other loads then that is what most people use it for.

Thanks again for all the great infomation and links.

Bill

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KWK
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Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 61
Loc: Illinois
Re: 25-25 Stevens [Re: banzaibird]
      #62495 - 15/09/06 04:13 AM

Let me know of any quirks you find in that Powley Computer I wrote. I'd be happy to fix them.

I've heard only good about the Oehler strain gauge system, and the RSI unit has a fine reputation as well. However, I can borrow a handheld 'scope from work; just add 4 resistors and a battery you're ready to read strain gauges. It's one of my "to do" items when I return to the US.

The way you describe for selecting powder is exactly how I see using the strain gauge. Getting true psi exactly correct is not necessary. I'm leary of reading "true" psi with strain gauges. Without the hydraulic calibration procedures used by SAAMI stations, I fear problems with strain gauge attachment, measurement of the barrel dimensions, etc. can lead to significant errors in calculating the true pressure. And what to do with those lovely octagon barrels I'm partial to?

Instead, you only need to see which of several powders gives the lowest pressure for the performance. Software tools, such as QuickLoad, reliably predict the fps feasible, they just can't sort out which powder will attain that performance. Use the s/w to predict fps, read the fps with a chronograph, and use the strain gauge to see which powder is best with respect to pressure.

Karl

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