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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Shooting High... !
      #61832 - 28/08/06 10:31 PM

The last two double rifles I have added to the meagre collection have one rather undesirable feature in common: they both shoot high! The first addition, a Manton .470 built by John Wilkes, shoots with astounding accuracy, but composite groups at 50 metres are almost 6 inches above the centre of the bead.



The latest acquisition, a Rodda .577/.500 No.2 built by W. & C. Scott and Son, also exhibits uncanny accuracy, but is similarly over 5 inches high at 50 metres.



I had resigned myself to making a taller front sight for the .470, and had conceded to filing-down the shallow vee express sights on the Rodda as part of its extensive refurbishment, but couldn’t help wondering why I had suddenly come face-to-face with this strange phenomenon. Other British doubles in my collection shot perfectly to the sights, a Jeffery .400 in particular showing superb accuracy, and a couple of old hammer-guns with tired first barrels still centering their somewhat lazy groups precisely under the bead. So, before permanently altering metal on these old treasures, my conscience insisted that I should ‘hit the books’ and try to find an explanation.

Well, the standard texts in my library were unfortunately silent on the matter, however I did come across a couple of references to British doubles shooting high in the popular press.

In the 1980s, Ray Ordorica wrote about his 20 years shooting a Churchill .470 double rifle, including the following sighting instructions:

"Place the TOP of the bead where you want the bullets to hit. My .470 is sighted to hit the centre of a 4-inch bull at 50 yards with a 6-o’clock hold."

Too, Ross Seyfried often describes groups shot with vintage Brit doubles as falling "just above the top of the bead."

OK, a few enticing hints there, but then I came across a veritable ‘tirade’ by Sherman Bell who, true to form, had a great deal more to say on the matter in a 2003 Blackpowder Hunting magazine:

"All of these shots were well-centred for windage, but as usual for a British rifle, they landed quite high above the point of aim. This high-shooting tendency is common to many British rifles. I can’t tell you how many times I have removed the original front sight from a valuable double or single-shot rifle, set it aside, and replaced it with a higher sight so the rifle would hit the point of aim. I do not know why the British sighted their rifles so high. I used to think this was the result of shooting ammunition made with components that were not exactly the same as those used in the 19th century. This may indeed account for some of the difference, but not enough to explain a trajectory that is above the point of aim by six inches to a foot, or even more, at 100 yards. It happens with black powder as well as with smokeless. I have read the theory that this high sighting was done purposely, to fool the rifle shooter into thinking the express rifles were more flat-shooting than they actually were. However, most of these rifles came with multiple rear sights for the various ranges, so I fail to see any real or advertising-hype advantage in having a rifle sighted to hit zero at two or three hundred yards with the 100-yard sight leaf. But then, in defence of this theory, when the balance of the rifle is filed to the tolerance of a thin film of smoke, it is difficult to believe that they used a front sight that is a sixteenth of an inch or more too low by mistake. Ah well, another of life’s little mysteries."

So..! What are the collective experiences of the membership here? Has anyone else encountered this ‘high-shooting tendency’ among British sporting rifles? If so, how bad was it?

I intend to proceed as planned, since a rifle which doesn’t shoot to the sights will be a continual source of frustration to me. I have a strong preference for the bullet to land right under the centre of the bead, in fact I consider it crucial for instinctive accuracy when snap-shooting at bolting boars or buff. Nevertheless, I’d be interested in the opinions of others on the permanent modification of sights on vintage British nitro doubles.


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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André
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Reged: 28/06/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Brussels (Belgium)
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61837 - 28/08/06 11:35 PM

Perhaps modern powders or maybe that cartridges heated by the tropical sun produced a little more velocity, which in turn affected bbl. time. It might be interesting to warm up your ammo before firing and see how it behaves.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: André]
      #61847 - 29/08/06 04:58 AM

In reply to:

Perhaps modern powders or maybe that cartridges heated by the tropical sun produced a little more velocity, which in turn affected bbl. time. It might be interesting to warm up your ammo before firing and see how it behaves.




Andre, this could be the case, but MORE velocity would make the rifle shoot lower, not higher! I believe the loads need speeding up, unless he has already reached the pressure limit! The sight change is probably the best fix, since both rifle are printing good groups with these loads!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
Loc: United States
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #61851 - 29/08/06 06:50 AM

A bit more velocity would bring the shots down, but it could also result in their crossing over a bit, too.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: luv2safari]
      #61856 - 29/08/06 07:50 AM

You are absolutely right! In fact on the bottom target they are already crossing, at 50 yds! If you will look at the lables for each shot, the 50 yd target is crossing slightly, and will get worse as the range increases. This one needs slowing down just a little. That and the sights are the fix for this one for sure. The top target shows a proper regulation with the left barrel printing on the left, and the right barrel printing on the right, but close enough to make a tight composit group. This is perfect load for the regulation, so I'd adjust the elevation with a taller front sight, or file the back down, to get the elevation on! Both rifles are shooting very well for individule barrel group. If the tiny adjustment is done on the load for the bottom target, and the sights adjusted for both for elevation , you've got a pair of winners there!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #61878 - 29/08/06 06:33 PM

So......! No-one else out there plagued with high-shooting pommie express rifles? Thought so! I have had the privelage of shooting many Brit doubles over the years, courtesy of a gunsmith friend and all my anglophilic shooting mates, and had never encountered this before. Must write to Sherman Bell and point this out....

It might be that my countrymen are generally pragmatic when it comes to shooting, and all such rifles in Australia have already been modified as required to shoot to the sights.

BTW, the crossing evident in the Rodda's target only started with reloads using my home-made neck-sizer, which is 'conservative' to say the least, because I don't have a proper seating die. I haven't built a crimp-die yet, but I'm sure that will fix the problem. (Some problem, eh? Touching at 50 metres...)

The first lot of groups, shot with proper neck tension, produced this target:
Still high though...



André:
I use Australian ADI powders almost exclusively. They are virtually insensitive to temperature fluctuations, and are now exported to the USA for sale as Hodgdon's 'Extreme' range. It's pretty warm where I shoot anyway, only 12 1/2 degrees below the equator!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61888 - 30/08/06 02:33 AM

Marrakai-

My Tolley, with the most recent load of 76grVarget (you've seen the target) hits five inches high at 50 yards.

I'm pretty close to making a new front sight with flip night bead and calling it done.

The J.Bury 8x60 also hits high.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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BlainSmipy
.375 member


Reged: 24/11/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Washington, USA
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61889 - 30/08/06 02:57 AM

How does it shoot at 100 yrds?



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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61892 - 30/08/06 04:31 AM

Good, I'm glad you clarified that. I was beginning to think it had something to do with the air in Oz. I can remember two that did that, for no apparent reason. Most seem to print center with a fairly tight six o'clock hold. But quite a few print just behind the bead, as my .400 does.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61894 - 30/08/06 06:05 AM


"It might be that my countrymen are generally pragmatic when it comes to shooting, and all such rifles in Australia have already been modified as required to shoot to the sights."

Spot on.

Why own a DR that doesn't shoot to the sights - as you know, when things happen you need it to "Point, Shoot and Hit" without worrying over having to remember where to hold.

And as for "anglophilic shooting mates" that's the best alternative to "Pommie bastard" I've heard in a long time !!!


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Spring
.300 member


Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 104
Loc: Georgia
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61899 - 30/08/06 07:11 AM

I had a similar thing happen with my .470. At first I thought the gun was shooting about 3 inches low and considered steps to change the front sight, just as you did. It was then that I realized that maybe I was aiming the gun with the front sight bead too low in the "V" of the rear sight. By adjusting the way I used my sights and now positioning the bead higher in the "V," the gun shoots dead on.
It took some adjusting on my part after a lifetime of aiming a rifle with iron sights a certain way, but after plenty of practice, I now shoot my .470 just fine. It's simply possible that the maker of your gun positioned his bead differently than you do. In your case, maybe you aim with the bead high in the “V”. If you try aiming with the bead at the bottom of the “V”, it might be all you need to do to lower your POA and get the accuracy you want.


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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61911 - 30/08/06 10:18 AM

My Jeffery 400 shot about 5 inches high. I had JJ put on a taller platinum faced front sight. Problem solved.

Jim


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50Calshtr
.300 member


Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: 470evans]
      #61913 - 30/08/06 11:22 AM

Marrakai
Don't feel like the lone ranger, about 1/3 of my rifles do the same, 4 - 10 inches high with good loads shooting the right weight bullets at the correct speeds. Tried holding low but never seeemed to remember when there was fur in the sights, had a couple of lung/shoulder shots turn into spine jobs. Now I just make a new, higher, front sight, one less thing for me to think about when hunting. Just finished one this last weekend for a 375/2.5 that was shooting 9" high. The old sight gets a labled plastic bag with several of it's mates in the parts box.
Enjoyed reading of your success with the 577/500 on buff, none of those around here, so I'll have to see if I can find a good hog this fall for mine to work on.
Best.


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61914 - 30/08/06 11:28 AM

In reply to:

BTW, the crossing evident in the Rodda's target only started with reloads using my home-made neck-sizer, which is 'conservative' to say the least, because I don't have a proper seating die. I haven't built a crimp-die yet, but I'm sure that will fix the problem. (Some problem, eh? Touching at 50 metres...)





Yeah, that's a problem I will take any day!

Both rifles are really shooting well! I've got a feeling the Buffs up North should start to try to find their flack jackets!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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nopride2
.300 member


Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61919 - 30/08/06 01:50 PM

My Army Navy 577BPE shoots 6-7 inches high at 50 yards. I flip up the night sight and it shoots under the bead. I tried it at 100 yards with the night sight. The bead completely covered the 8 inch bull. I just quartered the paper with the bead and put 3 right and lefts into the bull, barely. A little front sight work is in my future.

Dave


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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #61927 - 30/08/06 11:56 PM

Marrakai,
about half the doubles that I have owned over the years shot high such as yours. This indicates that the projectile is in the barrel to long. A little higher velocity, sometimes a change in powders usually made a difference. Graham Wright covers this in his excellent book/s.
The last 2 guns that had this problem were a Westley Richards .450 no 2 that belonged to a friend and a P. Webley & sons .500 underlever hammer gun that I sold recently.

Both guns responded to an increase in the loads. (being careful to watch for pressure, of course.)

cheers

--------------------
Love to hunt!


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Taylor416]
      #61929 - 31/08/06 12:24 AM

Four-Twelve

In the case of my Tolley, which is hitting in the neighborhood of five inches high at fifty yards, quicker internal ballistics would be tricky to achieve.

At this point, the rifle is printing very well (yet high) with 76gr Varget and a 350gr Hornady SNRN at about 2024FPS
That's through an 1880-something BPE rifle!
Mr. Wright shows a nice pressure-tested load of similar capacity in his book, with the 3-1/4" case, my cases are 500-450 3-1/2"
I've thought of nudging the charge up a bit to see if the groups would settle down to the sights, but since I'd heard of many other brit doubles printing like this my sense is to leave the load alone and craft a new front sight.

For what it's worth, my sight hold is with the bead down deep in the base of the shallow 'V' rear sight.

The only thing that's held me up on the fabrication of my new front sight is that the tiny screw that secures my front sight blade in it's dovetail is just a tad stuck.
Some time I'll get the penetrating oil and some vibration on that little bugger and get on with the build of a new plat-faced bead with a flip-up night bead.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: tinker]
      #61954 - 31/08/06 08:36 PM

Tinker,
sounds fairly standard to guns I've owned or developed loads for, for other blokes, especially older guns that started life as black powder cartridges. I think is something to do with the differences in black powder and smokeless and while we can get fairly close with load development and trying different powders, sometimes the best way out is a taller front sight as you are suggesting, against the more costly re-regulating.
I bet there are no pressure signs with the Tolley tho!

cheers
Chris

--------------------
Love to hunt!


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Taylor416]
      #61966 - 01/09/06 02:40 AM

No Pressure Signs at all...

Thanks for the note.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: tinker]
      #61971 - 01/09/06 04:33 AM

In reply to:

The only thing that's held me up on the fabrication of my new front sight is that the tiny screw that secures my front sight blade in it's dovetail is just a tad stuck.
Some time I'll get the penetrating oil and some vibration on that little bugger and get on with the build of a new plat-faced bead with a flip-up night bead.


--Tinker




TINKER ,on the stuck screw, try takeing the screw driver that fits the screw properly, and place it in the screw slot, while holding a piece of dry ice against the screwdirver blade. This will transfere the cold into the tiny screw, cauesing it to shrink. Then very quickly after the Dry ice is removed turn the screw. It should turn out fairly easily! When you re-install the screw in the new sight, put a little soft lock-tite in the threads in case you have to remove it again.
Another suggestion I'd like to make is, when you get the sight made to the proper hight, make another one as a spare so you have a replacement so if the rifle is dropped breaking, or bending you front sight. The spare doesn't have to be pritty, only the proper hight.

........Good shooting

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #61972 - 01/09/06 04:44 AM

Thanks for your note there too-

I have liquid nitrogen here, that migh just do the trick!
Good point with the spare sight too.

I'll be making the new sight.
The process is essentially like this...
Take a piece of steel stock and profile it to the shape of the current front sight, only slightly larger in most dimensions -- and however much taller it needs to be
Then cut a piece of the profiled stock to length, just a tad long
Then hand finish the profile, bringing the surface to the desired finish and the dovetail to the proper fit
Then notch for the plat or silver bead face and braze the precious metal in place, drill and counterbore for the set screw, bevel the bead face, black the steel, card and finish the steel and lap the face of the bead to a mirror finish.

Install and shoot.

Add the flip night sight feature somewhere in the process if it's getting a flip bead.

Making the profiled stock twice (or three, four... times) as long as necessary is the same bit of work as making it just the right length.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: tinker]
      #61987 - 01/09/06 12:59 PM

Well, that certainly drew a few more examples out of the woodwork! Obviously the phenomenon of shooting high is not uncommon with Brit double guns, my apologies to Sherman Bell!

I guess I've just been lucky in the past, so I won't begrudge the two I've got to do now.

Thanks all.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #62004 - 02/09/06 08:25 AM

This is just a thought and I do not offer it as the answer but for discussion.
Might it be that, like English double shotguns which are shot on game with the bird often apparently well clear vertically of the front bead, that it was the practice of the maker to make the gun shoot instintivly.
That is ( I am not luckly enough to own one of these masterpieces) if one takes the rifle concentrates your focus only on the target, bring up the gun and shoot without aiming, what is the fall of the bullet?
Now the problem with this is that these guns were made for the individual and fitted to their body and style of shooting so this might not be conclusive but I would be interested in the results.
I offer this as I shoot both shotguns and rifles with open sights with both eyes open. My lever action for example drives anyone else that uses it crazy as it hoots 4" off point of aim for them.

Regards


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nopride2
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Reged: 03/01/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Seattle, Wa.
Re: Shooting High... ! [Re: Marrakai]
      #62012 - 02/09/06 01:45 PM

Slots in your screws? lucky you.

Dave


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