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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Washo
.224 member


Reged: 28/05/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Lancaster, New York
Point of Impact
      #61625 - 24/08/06 11:32 AM

I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I recently acquired a new Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro Express. My experience with shooting rifles has been limited to 308 Win or smaller calibers, except for the couple of times I have fired a Ruger No1 in 458 Lott. I have been reloading my own ammo based on information on this forum.

I have had three shooting sessions with the Merkel. In order to cope with recoil I have been using a very firm grip when shooting the Merkel off the bench. It appears that this has the effect of causing the point of impact to be about four to five inches low and slightly to the left (I am right handed). I have been shooting six shot groups (three from each barrel) and have been able to achieve 2 inch groups (some with five shots in 1.5 inches or less). The couple of times that I shot the gun with with a more normal grip the point of impact was in the center of the target, but the recoil was much more noticable.

Is this point of impact difference to be expected? Is there something I can change with my shooting technique to allow the rifle to recoil naturally when shooting off the bench (for accuracy testing and regulating when working up loads) and not get beaten up by the recoil?

By the way, I had a recoil pad installed and I use a PAST pad on my shoulder.

I appreciate any advice that is offered.
Thanks.

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: Washo]
      #61630 - 24/08/06 12:46 PM

Washo,

If you have your own place to shoot where you can build a standing bench rest, or if you can find a place that has one you will find that felt recoil is remarkably reduced, compared to a typical sitting bench rest. You will also find that a standing rest allows just as steady a hold for checking how your loads shoot.

In the abscence of a standing rest, sitting as low as possible, with the rest as high as possible will reduce felt recoils as well, allowing your torso to rock and absorb some of the recoil.

I haven't experienced a change in POI resulting from holding the rifle tighter, but then I always hold it with the same grip.

JPK

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Point of Impact [Re: Washo]
      #61631 - 24/08/06 02:07 PM

Maybe you are trying to compensate for the recoil too much and are pulling your shots. I try to just go with it and hold the rifle with a grip just strong enough to control the rifle.

I would do what JPK suggested and not do your shooting from a bench. Should help a lot.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Point of Impact [Re: Washo]
      #61633 - 24/08/06 07:05 PM

When I shoot my larger calibers I do note a change in impact if I grip the foreend tightly.Ideally the rifle should be lying on something supporting the forend and not the barrel.
This may make a difference for you in the Merkel. I shoot the same gun and get decent groups but am considering getting a one inch recoil pad to keep the stock from hitting my cheek.
Alot depends on how the rifle fits you.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Point of Impact [Re: Washo]
      #61634 - 24/08/06 11:40 PM

The first time I shot my Merkel .500 NE, it was off the bench.

It was a religious experience.

In the great commonwealth of Virginia, in the public range I went to, you could only shoot off the bench.

It sucks.

When working up loads now, when I can, I use shooting sticks.

Shooting sticks may be for you a cheaper and easier alternative than a standing rest.

But boy do I want a standing rest!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: clark7781]
      #61635 - 25/08/06 12:31 AM

Clark,

Just to remind you, the NRA has an indoor 50yd range at their headquarters in Fairfax. I'm not sure if 500's are allowed, but they allow shooting offhand, off sticks, and have a (sitting) bench if required as well. You don't need to be an NRA member to use the range, though as a life member I would encourage every hunter or shooter to join. You can get the hours by calling 703-267-1400.

At a range near Frederick, MD, no offhand shooting is allowed except for muzzleloaders, and everything needs to be off a bench. I've given up on it for my DR.

We ought to get the DC area DR shooters together for a shoot at my hunting club or my brothers farm one of these days.

JPK

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61638 - 25/08/06 02:04 AM

JPK and Clark,

Don't forget I am about 20 miles from JPK's brother's farm and have a dandy all-weather private shooting range at my disposal, with targets at 25, 50, 100, and 200 yards. I'm basically the only user of this range. In fact, my friend who owns the property declares that it is my shooting range.

We tried to put together a shoot down here a couple years ago, but it fizzled. Paul will remember that.

Chasseur has come and shot often, but now he's in Honolulu.

I truly feel sorry for you big city dudes. I'm a dyed in the wool hick and wouldn't trade places.

Best,
Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61639 - 25/08/06 02:21 AM

Curl,

We really need to put something together. I'll be leaving for Africa on Sept 11 and gone for more than a month. I get home just in time for our muzzle loader season and then it ducks and geese and our deer and the Virginia deer seasons and then ducks and geese until late January.

I'll probably be in your neck of the woods for the Virginia deer season. Sadly, schedules have crossed and I haven't gotten down to visit my brother since last year.

If we can't put together something this fall we really should try to plan something for the spring. Maybe during turkey season. I'd have to check with my brother, but I think he'd be OK with a couple of guys "camping out" at his place. He has a big outfitter's tent set up on a platform and equipped with a wood stove for us visitors from the city. He's leary of too much shooting at his place since his horses start acting up with repetative shooting, but with Curl's better set up that shouldn't be an issue.

There is some good fly fishing in the area and my brother stocks the creek running through his valley with trout for catch and release fishing.

Too bad he isn't a double gun fan. Maybe you can turn him into one Curl!

JPK

Edited by JPK (25/08/06 02:23 AM)

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61652 - 25/08/06 07:23 AM

Jeez, Fly Fishing and Double Guns..... What more could you ask for?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61653 - 25/08/06 07:36 AM

JPK/Curl:

I have used the NRA range, and when I was there, you did have to be a member to shoot there. Also, I remember the literature saying that a .460 WBY was the largest gun you could shoot there.

Things may have changed, however.

I would love to do a shoot. There are a few of us in the "greater" DC area that have DRs and it would be great to oogle over everyone's guns on occasion.

I have tried to put something together at the Fairfax County Gun Club and at Quantico - both were shot down by the ranges.

Curl, yours is an option - it sounds like the ideal set-up.

I also need to find a place to deer hunt. Being a city boy in NoVA, I don't much time to scout "the country" for places in VA.

Sad, I know, but a fact of life with a young son and a demanding career.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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Washo
.224 member


Reged: 28/05/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Lancaster, New York
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61654 - 25/08/06 08:02 AM

I want to thank all of you who replied. From what I have seen and read on this forum, everyone is quite willing to help.
I am going to give shooting sticks a try. I will let you know how it works out.
Thanks again.

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61660 - 25/08/06 10:14 AM

I hate to admit it, but I have access (ownership) to some of the finest fly fishing for WILD trout (fly rod, barbless hooks, catch & release) anywhere. . . .

The shooting shack at my range is winterized with a wood stove in cold weather. Winter is a real fine time to go there, if there's no ice on the road. It's a 4WD farm road on a mountain to get there.

Curl


Edit:

By the way, my shooting range is closed for hunting during deer season. We don't schedule shoots then.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (25/08/06 10:17 AM)

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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61663 - 25/08/06 11:10 AM

And Curly you forgot to mention you live in the most beautiful part of the state of Virginia, hands down!

And the shooting shack is the best there is!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61664 - 25/08/06 11:17 AM

Curl,

I have spent many many fine days escaping from DC fly fishing for Brookies up in the Va mts.

If its early and I may have to resort to a nymph then my choice is a G Loomis 7'6" GL3 4wt. If it is prime time the selection is a Scott 6'10" 3wt put to together by Mr Murray in Edinburg.

[Can't recall his first name, its always been Mr Murray to me. Call his shop and they answer the phone, "People's Drug Store," and if you sound befudled or dumbfounded then after the breifest pause they continue..."and Murray's Fly Shop." I love his casting lessons delivered from up behind the pharmacist counter while he is wearing his white coat.]

On some of the more wide open sections of free stone creeks and for spring creeks, I'm a fan of a 9' 4wt GL3.

Geez, now you've got me going! We need to make it sometime that throwing a fly isn't an excercise in futility. We could try for the perfecta and do it during turkey season, meet for lunch to shoot DR, then make to the creeks in time to catch the afternoon hatch!

That may be more fun than is allowed in a day!

JPK

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61665 - 25/08/06 11:28 AM

Chasseur,

This is the trip we talked about while we were shooting SC together, but with some embelishment!. Any hope that you might be in our neck of the woods next spring?

JPK

Edited by JPK (25/08/06 11:29 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61666 - 25/08/06 11:37 AM

Now that Chasseur has chimed in, here's a pic of him shooting my Purdey .500BPE just outside the shooting shack. This is the winterized configuration of the shack, with plastic covering the sides.





Curl

P.S. We sure have hijacked this thread! Sorry to Washo.



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61670 - 25/08/06 12:08 PM

Curl,

Looks good if we need to do it in the winter. My only issue is freezing my bum off in my brother's outfitter tent, which I view as purely three seasonal!

Yes we have hijacked the thread. Sorry Washo, unless you live in the DC/Richmond /Charlottesville/Blacksburg/Lexington area, in which case you should join us when we get this shoot scheduled.

JPK

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61671 - 25/08/06 12:30 PM

Here's the real tour of the shooting shack and range.




The shack from the rear, winterized.






The target array: 25 yds, 50 yds, 100 yds, and 200 yds.





Inside the shack, by the stove with a pot of chili simmering.





My friend's son Jacob, our mascot, sitting on the shooting bench.





The shack from the front, shooting window open, Jacob peeking out.


There's no better way to spend a winter afternoon.

Curl





--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61672 - 25/08/06 12:46 PM

One more photo. Here's the shack under construction in June, 2002. Guys taking a break, a few (hundred) beer cans strewn around.



It has come a long way since then!

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61673 - 25/08/06 01:06 PM

Curl,

Nice diggs. If we do it in the winter, I'd have to find a hotel or motel. Maybe I could bring my wife and leave her at the spa at the Homestead. That might be the equal of the turkey hunting/shooting/trout fishing perfecta. Shoot SC's at the Homestead/ move opperations and shoot DR's at the shooting shack/have dinner with wives/girlfreinds according to martital status!

The Homestead is about a half hour or so drive isn't it? Or is the Greenbrier closer? I have always preffered the Homestead, my wife the Greenbrier, so its six one way, half dozen the other.

JPK

BTW, I have removed the cheek peice from the left side and some wood from the right side of my Thys to make it more freindly for this lefty. Except for a more prominent than I love toe, it fits as if made for me. According to the gunsmith who did the work, who is a righty, it gave up nothing in fit for him. I might remove the leather covered pad and remove some wood from the right side of the toe and then have another leather covered pad fitted. But this will wait til I'm back from Africa.

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61674 - 25/08/06 01:19 PM

We are about equidistance from the Homestead and the Greenbrier. About 25 miles to either. That's a bit above my raisin' though.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61676 - 25/08/06 01:46 PM

Yea, me too. But my wife sure likes it!

I'd be happy in my brother's tent if I didn't think I'd feeze to death.

Have you ever shot at the Homestead? Pretty nice SC's operation. Also, I thought it might be an uptight operation but it wasn't, just good fun.

Thought I'd edit this post to add: happy husband, $20 for a case of beer; happy wife, Priceless!

JPK

Edited by JPK (25/08/06 02:00 PM)

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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Point of Impact [Re: JPK]
      #61685 - 25/08/06 05:38 PM

Thanks for that pic Curly it bring back good memories! Now I've got to find that other pic of me getting push across the border into West Virginia by your 500NE...

JPK and Curly I'll be back in the DC are either in the fall or the spring this year (Oct-March) for some business. If I can swing I'd love to come on down to the shooting shack! I'll bring some roast pig!

Edit: Here is one of those 500NE pics...



--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (25/08/06 05:48 PM)

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Point of Impact [Re: Chasseur]
      #61686 - 25/08/06 05:44 PM

JPK
As I have stated before I have handled your double and found it to be very nice.
"Modifying" it to fit YOU is a great idea.
Your loads, at your velocities, are the equal of anything in the 450/475 group.

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Point of Impact [Re: CptCurl]
      #61688 - 25/08/06 09:07 PM

Not to butt in but how does one get invited to this shindig . I don't have any real DR's shootable right now except a homemade 9.3x74r (well and a 22 hornet) but it would be cool just to meet you all. I'm pretty much straight north on 81 from that area of VA.

Bill

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