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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Third Fasteners
      #61350 - 18/08/06 07:52 AM

I have been looking around for a resource that explains, with pictures, the various kinds of third fasteners found on doubles, so far without any luck. The best one I have found was Hallowell but it isn't very complete.Can forum members post pictures and explanations of any third fasteners that they know of? I think this would be a great resource for the site.

I will start it off;

Doll's Head (taken from Hallowellco.com):

Doll's Head - A rib extension on a break-open gun, ending in a circular or semi-circular shape in plan (resembling the head of a doll), mating into a similarly-shaped recess in the top of the receiver, designed to resist the tendency of the barrels to pull away from the standing breech when firing. Because an action's centerpoint of flex when firing is at the base of the standing breech, not at the hingepin, a passive doll's head extension makes an effective extra fastener, even without additional mechanical locks operated by the opening lever.







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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
Posts: 256
Loc: Half hour North of Tampa Bay F...
Re: Third Fasteners [Re: bulldog563]
      #61376 - 18/08/06 04:40 PM

I'd like to see the Webley Screw-Grip from all angles, including action opened.

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Cordially,
Jack

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DRSS Member

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Third Fasteners [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #61380 - 18/08/06 08:55 PM

Bissell Rising Bite:







Pictures were taken from a previous thread here.



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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Third Fasteners [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #61386 - 18/08/06 10:07 PM


BigFiveJack

I got someone to post a picture of 2 of my 500 Nitro
double rifles, one a Webley Screw Grip, the other a PHV1.

I can't find them but hopefully someone will remember
where they are.

500 Nitro

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unspellable
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Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa
Re: Third Fasteners [Re: bulldog563]
      #61408 - 19/08/06 06:01 AM

I don't have a photo, but my William Evans has a half circle doll's head similar to that in the first photo in this thread with the addition of a third bite in the doll's head. The doll's head in the photo above does not appear to have a bite.

I have seen the Greener Cross Bolt on some fairly inexpensive shotguns, but one has to ask about the fit. A third fastener does nothing if it is not well fitted.

I've seen what I think is a "kirsten" third fastener on a SxS double rifle, this is like two Greeners, one on each side as opposed to a single one in the center. More commonly seen on O/Us. As a side note, this rifle was chambered for the 9.3 X 74R and was so light that I would have been afraid of the recoil. Goes to show a double doesn't always weigh more than a bolt action rifle.

Edited by unspellable (19/08/06 06:02 AM)

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Third Fasteners [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61410 - 19/08/06 07:00 AM

500 Nitro:

I did a search on it too that came up blank, but I finally found it anyway. The string you were referring to was titled Screwgrip and PHV-1. Sorry I don't know how to link it. I just sent it back to the top.

The type unspellable described is the A & W C, which is pictured on the left. Almost all pre-war Evans double rifles were built by Webley. The PHV-1 is on the right. 4Seventy's confusion notwithstanding, they're both screw-grips.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
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Re: Third Fasteners [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61411 - 19/08/06 07:17 AM

400NE,

Here's a link to the thread you mentioned:

Screw grip and PHV1

Well worth reading, and now linked to this thread.

Best,
Curl



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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
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Re: Third Fasteners [Re: CptCurl]
      #61413 - 19/08/06 08:08 AM


Curl

Thanks

I was searching of 500 Nitro as that is how I have my photos
which is why I couldn't find the post.

500 Nitro

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Re: Third Fasteners [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61415 - 19/08/06 08:51 AM

How does the Webley Long Bar fit into all of this?

Does anyone know of a book or other resource that lists and explains all of the types?

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Third Fasteners [Re: bulldog563]
      #61417 - 19/08/06 09:53 AM


bulldog

I use the term Webley Long bar action as a generic
reference to the actions made by Webley that have long bars
however I have not done a study on whether the
Webley Long bar action is only on Webley Screw Grips, PHV1's
or any other Webley Actions.

Maybe 400NitroExpress may be able to enlighten us as
he has a wealth of valuable knowledge on these.

I do know my Rigby 450 NE DR is a Webley Long bar action.

As to whether it has been referred to a Webley Long bar action
in any cataloigues, I coiuldn't tell you.

Myh Rigby 450 NE is shown on this forum in it's case on the post where the different guns are listed.

Hope this helps

500 Nitro

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4seventy
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Re: Third Fasteners [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61548 - 22/08/06 11:13 AM

In reply to:

they're both screw-grips



To say that Webley A & WC, and PHV-1 actions both feature screw grip fastening is incorrect.

Both types of third bite are attempting to contain the same force during firing but they actually achieve this in two TOTALLY different ways.

The A & WC system delivers a tension force along the shaft of the screw. (top lever spindle) This is a screw grip system.

The PHV-1 system delivers a compression force acting on the top lever extension which is supported by the top of the action frame. This is really a wedge grip system.

So not only do they work in different ways, they actually work in opposite ways.

The PHV-1 does not use a screw fastening system for the third bite so suggesting that it is a "screw grip" is wrong.

Examine the two different types, look at how the load is transmitted from the barrel extension to the other components relating to the third bite and you will see there is a huge difference.

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