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hoppdoc
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9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST??
      #61288 - 17/08/06 07:23 AM

Which rifle would be the best all round African gun?

If you went on a safari with two rifles hunting everything from plains game to Ele--what would you consider choosing for the "other" gun besides carrying a Heavy Double(450+class,etc) for Buff and ele??

Would you consider choosing the 9.3 Double with a detachable scope due to its weight, handling, instant 2nd shot capability, etc or would you go with the 375 Bolt with its longer range, more cartridge capacity, and better ballistics?

What would be the best choice, gentlemen? Why?

Thanks for all replies beforehand--






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JPK
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61299 - 17/08/06 01:15 PM

I have been on one "from elephant to impala" safari and I took a DR in, god forbid!, 458 and a bolt rifle in 375H&H. The combination worked great and I will take these same two rifles again this year.

There are pros and cons to a DR as a second rifle and a bolt as a second rifle. I think, as you have implied, that if multi DG is what you plan to hunt, in adddition to PG than the light rifle needs to be capable of taking the largest game you will hunt, and legal too.

If my understanding of Zim game laws is correct then the 9.3x74R for a DR and the 9.3x62 and x64 for bolt rifles are all legal for anything. In Tanzania, I think the DR would have to be a 375 Flanged Magnum. Assuming that the calibre is legal for your largest game, here elephant, for either the bolt or DR then I think there are pros and cons for each choice.

Pro for the DR - and for a takedown bolt too - is the ability to pack both guns in a takedown case. Lighter, smaller, easier to hump and less conspicous.

Pro for the bolt is that you can have one of the trackers carry it with four in the magazine and an empty chamber in case of enexpected opportunities.

Con for the DR is that the tracker ought to carry it unloaded.

Pro for the bolt is that you can have a tracker carrying extra ammo for the bolt since if he trades with you for that unexpected opportunity the rifle has four rounds in the magazine. With a DR I think you would almost have to have a couple of softs and solids on you.

Pro for the DR is that switching from softs to solids, or vice versa is quick and quiet, not so for a bolt. Also you can load one of each and have a choice. Quick and quiet load changes would be very nice for, say, grysbuck or elephant encounters.

Con for the bolt is the slow and loud switching of whats in the magazine. If you are done with the game you brought your big DR for, and you are still in elephant country, I think a bolt should be carried with one or two softs on top of solids. This compromise is far from ideal.

I have considered going to a DR for my second rifle, but my 375H&H worked great and I see no need to switch.

My thoughts,

JPK


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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61300 - 17/08/06 01:17 PM

Personally, I'd use a 9.3x74 as long as I could get descent solids for it.
: Nostalgia alone takes precedence over the .375H&H, another favourite of mine.
: If good solids were not available for the 9.3, I'd opt for the .375 in a BRNO ZKK602, like the one I mistakenly sold, so cheaply, so many years ago. It was a great rifle for rough use and exceptionally accurate with all bullets tested. Recoil was next to nill for the calibre of that rifle & I played with it for some 3-position shooting competition, much to the discomfort of the guys shooting near me. It was also a terrific cast bullet shooter.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NE450No2
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: DarylS]
      #61311 - 17/08/06 04:21 PM

hoppdoc
I have been on 2 Safaris to Zim, one for 21 days and one for 30 days.
On both I took a 450 No2 double and a Chapuis 9,3x74R Scoped double.
On the first the 9,3 did excellent work on plains game, the longest shot at a little over 300 yards on a kudu.

On the second it also did excellent work on plains game and also took a giraffe, big buffalo and a cow elephant at 5 yards.

In a serious situation I prefer the 9,3 double to a 375 bolt rifle.

286 Woodleigh Solids work perfect, as do 286 Woodleigh Softs.


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JPK
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #61318 - 17/08/06 11:45 PM

Hopdoc,

450 NE No2 says, "In a serious situation I prefer a 9.3x74 double to a 375H&H bolt." That is hard to agrue with, especially when you agree!

Serious situations that make a light DR shine, at least IMO:

Close encounter with elephants, especially cows, while hunting PG; quiet, quick and easy to switch to solids.

Follow up on leopard; light, quick, easy pointing rifle with a prayer of two shots.

Nessecity to use your light rifle for your big DG due to some issue with your big DR.

I'm sure there are others. Still, there are trade offs.

JPK


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DarylS
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #61321 - 18/08/06 01:00 AM

There ya go - good solids are available. Ana ccurate quick detachable system for the scope would also be a boon.
: It is surprising how well a person can shoot with good irons with a bit of practise too.
: In a short period of time, I taught a friend, who previously thought a scope was necessary for moose past pistol ranges, whacking the steel ram at 300 meters offhand, using his .375 Ruger#1 and 300gr. RN's.
: For a good hunter and good game shot, respectable, well regulated irons are all that's actually required.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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butchloc
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: DarylS]
      #61335 - 18/08/06 05:45 AM

i dono i've got both and have used both in africa a different trips. The 9.3 has a trajectory problem if the range streches out beyond 200 like it does sometimes. and as much as i love my doubles the accuracy level of a good scoped 375 is much better. I find the stopping power of a 375 to be greater than a 9.3, but if i'm worried about stopping power i want my 470. I believe i've taken as much game with one as the other, and what it really boils down to is which one i feel like taking at the time.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: butchloc]
      #61364 - 18/08/06 11:27 AM

The 9.3 obviously has the better handling and the instant 2nd shot available if a dangerous situation suddenly occurs.The 375 has the longer range, the better ?punch and more capacity if needed.

Forum members--
How often have you encountered danger on a nondangerous game safari that really needed that 2nd shot-PRONTO?? How often have you had a bolt and really needed a Double?

Is this primarily just an issue of personal preference or is one type rifle better suited for "nondangerous" african hunting?
Is there a winner here?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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JPK
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61366 - 18/08/06 12:52 PM

Hopdoc,

Its not the second shot at DG on a non DG hunt that is the issue, its the first, with a solid.

We were flat out charged by an angry cow elephant after we'd stopped the truck to take a walk looking for a nice warthog we'd seen. We were only thirty yards from the truck and the cow came from a hundred. We barely made it to the truck and she got within six feet of it as we got out of dodge. I'd thrown my 375H&H to one of the trackers after he climbed in the back as I climbed in the front and he fired two shots with my rifle over her head which checked her each time. She didn't stop til we'd covered a couple of hundred yards, at full speed, in reverse.

Put us further from the truck or put her closer to us when she saw us and it would have been more than an exciting moment. That was the last for me carrying more than one, at most two, softs in my bolt rifle, even if impala are the target.

Other than this close call, while after PG we were bluff charged once, again by a another cow in the bush and worried by a couple of others. I should have gone to one or two softs, on top of solids after the bluff charge, which was prior to the for real go. You will never feel so helpless than when an elephant is coming at you and you have all softs in your rifle. We also got a half hearted charge from an old scrum cap buff that had been torn up by a lion, when we suprised the old boy lying in a spring as we aproached it to check for tracks. He only came half way and when we held our ground he stopped then eventually turned and ran.

There was a tracker killed in Zim this year by a bull elephant when the party was after PG. This stuff does happen. And no matter how excellent the PH is, I don't want to be entirely dependent upon him, and hope if it came to it that I could save myself, or perhaps the PH or one of the trackers.

Elephants are amazingly difficult to see in the bush and a suprisingly small amount of seemingly sparse cover can make them blend in. They also move very quietly in cover you think they'd make a racket moving through. Best to have a healthy respect for them, including being prepared, best you can, to deal with trouble.

IMO, for PG hunts where there are no elephants, a bolt is the better choice, especially when ranges might be longer. For PG hunting where there are elephant, I think the light double might have the edge, but that doesn't make a bolt unsuitable, just plan for trouble and keep three or four solids under your one or two softs.

My thoughts,

JPK

Edited by JPK (18/08/06 01:01 PM)


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NE450No2
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: JPK]
      #61372 - 18/08/06 02:43 PM

Several times on both Safaris, while hunting plains game with my 9,3 double we would bump into elephants.
It was very comforting to be able to quickly, and silently exchange the 2 softs for 2 solids.


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hoppdoc
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #61379 - 18/08/06 07:31 PM

Obviously Ele can cause an instant crisis on any hunt and a PG hunt in particular.

Pardon me for playing the Devils Advocate---
There are no certainly no flies on the 9.3, but if tripping over Ele is a real concern it seems a bit light if a charge does occur.Wouldn't outfitting with a 450/400 with solids and a detachable scope and a 375 bolt as b/u with solids be a better alternativethan the 9.3 for both PG and Ele if possible?
The difference in trajectory at 200yd distance is only one inch between them and the 450/400 could smack Ele much harder.

I guess what I am asking is that if dangerous game encounters truly are a possibility thenshould heavier armament than a 9.3 be carried??

Is the 450/400 a viable long range PG compromise vs the 9.3 with Ele and Buff pop ups a possibility?

--------------------
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JPK
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61391 - 18/08/06 11:09 PM

Hopdoc,

The 450/400 enjoyed a reputation as the best all rounder before the advent of the 375H&H.

Just checking Chuck Hawks website for trajectories, there is substantial differences between the 375H&H and the 450/400. (the 450/400 is not actually listed so I substituted the 404 at 2150fps with a 400gr bullet) This difference, when sighting for a maximum bullet rise of three inches, amounted to a three and a half inch difference at 200yds using either open sights or scope. The 9.3x74 was in the middle between the two.

Also, from all I have read, killing a charging elephant, from a ballistics point of view, is relatively easy since the head will be lowered and thus little or no trunk will need to be penetrated between entrance point and brain.

If you are talking about more reliably stopping an elephant by turning it or knocking it down or out, even with a missed brain shot, then you are talking about 450 NE on up.

Rifle weight is an issue too. A scoped 450/400 will weigh 10 1/4lbs on the very light side and way on up from there. A scoped 375H&H bolt can easily be made up a pound lighter. A scoped 9.3x74 would go about 8 1/4 to 9 1/4lbs. I have found DR's much easier to carry in the feild, btw.

When you bump into trouble, you are probably going to need to rely on what ever sight set up you have. If your scope is on its unlikely you will have a whole lot of time to remove it, imo. That is one reason I'm a fan of the low powered variables.

FWIW, if I were to select a light DR today, as my second rifle for a multi DG and PG hunt it would probably be a 375 Flanged Magnum, or a 375H&H if I could find a suitable rifle that was light enough, or a 9.3x74R if I couldn't find the elusive light 375 Fl or H&H DR.

If I had a 9.3x74R in a nice light scoped DR I would not hesitate to use it based on its history - as well as that of the 9.3x62 - and 450 NE No 2's excellent results with it.

JPK


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500grains
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: JPK]
      #61398 - 19/08/06 01:09 AM

A double is a specialized tool IMO, so for an 'all around gun', a bolt with a QD scope will win every time. caveat: This entire post is opinion, and should not be construed as fact in any way, shape or form.

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hoppdoc
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: 500grains]
      #61406 - 19/08/06 04:51 AM

It is pure conjecture as I have no African experience but with the previous opinions expressed---
if I had my druthers was hunting PG and there was a chance of Buff or Ele making a surprise appearance I would like be carrying a 450/400 or 375 Flanged Double or similar class DR with solids etc with the scope off and detached .The scope could then be mounted on a low power if and when stalking game.

In a different environment with no similar risks a 375 bolt with softs would seem more than sufficient.

If this seems incorrect or illogical someone please comment.



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (19/08/06 05:00 AM)


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NE450No2
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61407 - 19/08/06 05:02 AM

This post is hitting close to home for me.
As previously stated I have used my 450 No2 and my 9,3x74R [scoped] on 2 previous Safaris with excellent results.
On my next trip I am taking my wife.

She plans to use a 450/400 3 1/4" on cow elephant, buff and giraffe, eland and a 308 Blaser for plains game. I was planning on taking my Blaser Safari 375 H&H as she could also use it if necessary.[The 450 No2 goes of course].

Since I have used the 9,3 quite a bit I thought I would give the 375 a go so I can see if there is any difference between it and a 9,3 and also see the difference when using a bolt action.
I have never used a bolt rifle in Africa.

However I am having a hard time making the decision on which one to take.

The Chapuis 9,3x74R double has been perfect... in every way.


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JPK
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #61502 - 21/08/06 12:26 PM

NE450No2,

Take the one you are familiar with! No poor choices there, but then you know that.

Hopdoc,

If there are no elephants around, or cape buffalo, then a 30-06 would be great, and many other calibres too.

JPK


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NE450No2
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: JPK]
      #61506 - 21/08/06 03:19 PM

JPK

I shot the 375 Blaser 375 H&H today and it shot good. I like the way it handles, shoots and functions etc.

However I think the 9,3 will get the airplane ticket. I just fine the double superior to the bolt. And I can do anything with the 9,3 that I could do with the 375.


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JPK
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #61522 - 22/08/06 01:51 AM

450NENo2,

I know this is the right choice for you given your familiarity with the rifle, and your confidence in it.

JPK


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butchloc
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: JPK]
      #61525 - 22/08/06 04:36 AM

take the 9.3 the blaser is -well its a but it could be a or maybe a anyway take a real rifle

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400NitroExpress
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: butchloc]
      #61527 - 22/08/06 04:49 AM

Emergency medical treatment for a bolt through the skull is much more readily available in the US than in Zim. Best to leave the Blowzer at home.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Double_Trouble
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61528 - 22/08/06 05:19 AM

well said 400!

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Sam
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62455 - 14/09/06 04:23 AM

I have just coming home from Zimbabwe.
I shot a dagabull with my revolver in cal. 454 Casull.

2 elephants+buffalocow and a hippo was shot. With a boltaction (404 Jeffery).

I believe that most of the situations can be done better with a bolt than a DR.

But when the elephantcow came fast - and was shot at 7 m - then a DR could be a better choice (if the cow didn`t got the bullet in her brain).

Anyway - I`m looking for a DR in .375 H&H - but the reason is only nostalgia.

I can read that 9,3 is a choice - but to be sure that the caliber is allowed in the country I visit - I choose .375.

In Zim - you can be put in jail for 21 days - if you are SUSPECTED for a crime.

With other words: a death sentence (30 "roomfriends" with a "bad flue" who rapes you 21 days).


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ozhunter
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: Sam]
      #62485 - 14/09/06 08:18 PM

I can think of no better Rifle for plains game in Zim than a QD scoped 9.3x74 double.
I have hunted in plains game areas where there was a possibility of runing into Ele, Buff, Hippo, Lion or Leopard. Although not often, I will only hunt such areas with a 9.3 or bigger. Being that the 9.3 is a great PG caliber and a capable DG caliber, it is a logical choice.
PS; This goes for a 375FLANGED also.
ozhunter


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: ozhunter]
      #62861 - 22/09/06 06:09 AM

All round "African" rifle?

As the 9.3 won't be legal in many African jurisdictions I would go for a calibre starting] with the .375.

If the ranges are going to be over 100 metres, then many hunters will require a scope.

Also a scope helps if shooting in a herd situation or if shooting in a heavy brush situation where one may need to see twigs or small branches in the way.

Of course a scope could be mounted on a double rifle set up properly for one.

Also how many double rifle owners actually use their rifles with confidence at ranges such as 200 metres or 250 metres?

I know NE450No2 has (at approx 270 yards) but rarely (or never) have I read anyone else having done so on the net.

I prefer to take shots with my doubles at closer range (buff at 100 metres or less) or larger targets. But I am keen to develop loads/rifle with the ability to handle longer shots at smaller game as I prefer to take only one rifle on a hunt from now on.

If the only shot possible is at longer range it might be necessary to miss out and go home empty handed.

A .375 or a .500/.416 in a double might be a good compromise.

A .375 H&H bolt with scope can probably be setup to handle all the situations (within reason) one can expect, much easier.

Just some (heretical - for NitroExpress.com) thoughts.


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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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bonanza
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Re: 9.3x74 DOUBLE vs 375H&H BOLT-WHICH IS BEST?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #65227 - 03/11/06 11:27 PM

Here is what Ive heared. Carry your big bore DR, but bring along a scoped bolt rifle in just case your only chance at a trophy lies out of range of your DR.

Some people say that on a $20K safari don't rely 100% on a 100 year old rifle. $1500 will buy you a reliable back up bolt rifle in case your DR goes TU

--------------------


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