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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns

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AdamTayler
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Yogi000]
      #65276 - 04/11/06 12:03 PM

I have not shot a grizz with a shot gun, but have popped a small blackie at 12-15 feet with a smoothbore Rem 870 12 gauge and a slug. It was a complete pass through quartering away and on a down hill angle. The insides were soup when I found the bear about 30-35 yards away, but it still ran away after jumping about 2 feet in the air.

Good luck with your project.

Has anyone tried using a brass projectile?

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.


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DarylS
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Marrakai]
      #65346 - 05/11/06 03:01 PM

Marrakai - thanks for posting your test results. 10" at 100 yards is excellent accuracy from a round ball. It is also better than I've ever got with facotry Foster slugs from a Police Riot gun.
: My double used to do a bit better than 10". I used hard balls, and the base cups off a shot-cup for centering the ball in the bores. Worked for me. Differing powder charges as in working up rifle ammo also helps. Picking a load and putting up with the results doens't work with either rifle or shotgun, not if the best possible results are required.
: this is why my next tests will be with the lower part of a steel-shot cup. They are thicker and are considerably more heavily built.
; We've a long way to go as every gun is a law unto itself.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Marrakai
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: DarylS]
      #65390 - 07/11/06 02:28 AM

Daryl:
Can you tell us what brand of steel-shot wad has the hemi-spherical base to the shot-cup, as pictured in your earlier post? The ones I have seen here in Oz are usually square-ish in the bottom, white in colour, generally italian or spanish make. I wouldn't mind re-trying the ball-bearing madness with those pink wads....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DarylS
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Marrakai]
      #65391 - 07/11/06 03:13 AM

Brand- "MEC" - Mayville Engineering Co. Inc. 715 south Street, Mayville Wi. 53050 - (414) 387-4500
: Green wads for 12 bore 2-3/4" tapered case -MEC-12TW
: White Wads for 12 bore 2-3/4" straight wall-MEC-122
: Pink Wads for 12 bore 3" straight wall-MEC-312
: Brown Wads for 10 bore straight wall-MEC1-105
: The pink ones do have the nice radiused cup in the bottom. I suppose the others might but haven't seen any other colours of thee wads.
: Another use for this wad, is for improve the centre concentration of shot in black powder loads form cylinder bored guns. A card should be placed on the BP to prevent the plastic from melting and coating the bore. For my BP test laods (still not fired) I've used 1/2 of the steel shot wad, which holods about 1oz shot. The base cup on this one is reminisent of the Swedish cup wad that Greener liked so much. It may be useful in preventing the wads from spreading the shot load when they blast though the shot cloud upon exit from the muzzle. This is the main cause of donut and blown patterns from cylinder bores. The base cup of this wad may help fill in those patterns.
; The cup itself is a bit undersize to a .70" ball, but a slight radius (I use my pocket knife) is easily cut on the edge to hold the ball centred. Although stated for straight walled ases, they fit the plastic trap cases I have at the 1/2 way point just fine, no case expansion at that point.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Yogi000
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: DarylS]
      #65410 - 07/11/06 08:23 AM

Brass would seem to have a low density hence result in low sectional density... Obviously we want to be going in the OTHER direction... aka higher sectional density.


I was just thinking:
You know how they make those chocolate covered peanuts.... I'd like to get me a copper coated lead ball....haha

Or another way to visualize it is: a perfectly round hollow copper ball, drill a very small hole in the wall and inject it with molten lead. The port or orifice to feed the lead in would create the smallest imbalance... but, I would think it would not affect accuracy up to 50 yards.... hmmmm.


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DarylS
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Yogi000]
      #65427 - 07/11/06 02:45 PM

The easiest method of making hard balls is to use alloys. Straight wheelweights, as in the ball I put through my last BP moose, was from my 14 bore rifle. The .684" ball wieghed 466gr. before and after. It smashed out a 6" piece of rib (1-1/2" wide and 6" long) and drove that through the left lung, cutting the bottom of he right lung and ending up stuck between the ribs of the right side, with the end of it still inside the right lung. The ball went across the lungs, making a 5" round hole, presumably from the attendent shock wave. It entered the off shoulder, smashing it and came to a stop underneath the hide.
: The ball was undamaged, except for some marks from the bone, and or the willow tree tips it went through before hitting the moose.
; Now, that was only a wheel weight ball. If one wants them harder, one merely has to harden and temper them.
: Put several balls on a steel plate in the kitchen oven set at 460 degrees. The balls must be cast from wheelweights of a mix of pure lead and wheelweights. Adding tin will hurt rather than help the alloy in this case. Raise the heat 10 degrees at a time, until you see the balls sag from being semimolten. Drop the temperature back to the seting it was last at without any sagging.
: Replace the tray with the rest of the balls and the them 'soak' in the oven for at least 1 hour.
: Gently remove the tracy, tin can or other object they are in, and dump them carefully into a bucket of cold water. A towel on the bottom will help protect them.
: At this point, they will still be quite soft, but will harden over the next 12 to 24 hours to something in the 30 to 32 range on the brinell scale. Linotype is only 22 brinell but may be too brittle for our use - maybe not. Linotype is about the hardest alloy we can easily find, and that is harder to find all the time. It is also much lighter than WW, which are lighter than pure lead. An alloy of 50/50. WW and pure lead will obtain the highest brinell we can develop with any alloy. Well, now they[re hard, perhaps too hard, so here's how to temper them. (draw the hardness to the level we want). This is also called annealing and the overall method is similar but not quite indentical to annealing steel. Set the oven at 190degree Fahrenheit.
; Letting the balls stand in the oven for a period of 1 hour, will result in temering them to about brinell 24 to 25. 1 hour 45 min. will result in balls 21 to 22 brinell and 2 hours soak will result in balls being 19 to 20 brinell. That should be plenty hard for everything required. When the desired time span is achieved, remove the balls and let them cool at room temperature. Do not quench them.
: Once cool, they will now be at the desired hardness level you chose form the list of times. Alloys with a large amount of tin are not good for this as they will age soften fairly quicky (or not harden at all) (become softer with age). Wheel weights or pure lead and wheelweights mixes are the best. Arsnic must be present in the alloy in order for it to harden properly, as arsnic is the catalist. Straight lead/tin alloys won't harden at all.
: Wheelweight's minisule amount of arsnic is suffienent, even when cut in 1/2 by alloying with pure lead. A 50/50 mix of wheelweights and pure lead will actually harden to almost 35 brinell, and if then tempered (drawn) to a lower brinell, will result in a tougher ball than straight wheelweights that have the same brinell number.
: I do hope this gives something more for you to think about.
; Maintaining the high specific gravity (densness) of lead or lead alloys is important for our penetration needs. Making the ball lighter will reduce total penetration. I am quite sure a steel ball will not penetrate nearly as far as a standard ww ball, let alone one that has been hardened and tempered for maximum penetration. For this same reason, modern armour piercing rounds no longer have steel cores because carbaloy out penetrates steel due to having a higher specific gravity(it's denser, ie: heavier for the same size)
; Due to our velocities being so low, under 1,700fps normally, I do not think a hardened ball of 31 brinell would be too brittle. If driven at 2,800fps, perhaps, but not at the velocities we're talking about. Testing, testing, testing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: DarylS]
      #65490 - 08/11/06 07:02 AM

: I just found a box of my cast .722" balls cast of Wheelweights. These were cast in the J.Tanner mould I have, which is marked .725". They weigh 553 gr. in WW metal. Also, I found a few 10 bore ball bearings at .775" in diameter. 10 bore is actually .774", so .775 is too large even for 10 bore. These weigh only 492.6gr.
: I expect a 12 bore ball bearing will be between 400gr. to to 430gr., compared to the 553gr. weight of the WW ball. Too, one must be careful the steel ball does not touch the wall of the barrel as it will score the steel as they are very hard indeed, much harder than the barrel steel. The ball bearings were actually heavier than I thought they'd be, but since we can make cast(& harden if necessary) W.W. balls harder than we actually need, I see no reason for shooting steel ones. Each to his own, though as this is all experimentation at it's best.
; Some time ago, in 1986 when we put my 14 bore rifle together, I fired a wheelweight ball at a concrete block at 75 yards range. The block was 3" thick, x 18" x 10" wide. The 466gr. round ball was loaded with 165gr. 2F powder. At the shot, the concrete block disintegrated into chunks smaller than 5" along with a mass of concrete dust in the air. I have since lost that ball, but recall vividly what it looked like -It looked like a normaly expanded pure lead ball from a dirt backstop. I also recall the ball lost less than 100 gr. weight & was way over 1" in diameter. It was found lying amidst the rubble of the block.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Yogi000
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: DarylS]
      #70593 - 01/02/07 05:00 AM

Hey Daryl,

First, thank for all your excellent advice so far on round ball loading. I recently ordered a .724 RB mold from Tanner for my .724 bores and while I intend to follow all your good advice on making the RB's and with wads etc.
I did lose your recommendation for powders!

I have Fiocchi 3 inch hulls with fio616 primers. I am not married to them but that is what I bought from BP for my 3 inch chambers in the double slugger.

Obviously, I want to develop as much FPS as I reasonably can achieve. For powders now I have IMR PB and Winchester Super Field, but would buy whatever you think might work better on tossing those big 'ole round balls.

Also to start my tests I was assuming I would first try just straight lead with a small percent of WW and hardening them up with oven and quench. This would make them heavier but conceptually I prefer heavier.

I do hope to get up to BC some day to do some real hunting. My girlfriend's sister lives In BC and bought some pristine land in a very remote area where someday she expects me to help her build an off-the-grid cottage on. I saw pictures of the land and the view of the mountains around it.. Absolutely breath taking.

Thank you again for all your terrific advice and pearls of wisdom!


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Sarg
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Yogi000]
      #70605 - 01/02/07 08:40 AM

Hello , Yogi000 I see your wish for copper coated lead balls .I have seen recently lead rifle projectiles that have been copper coated by I think a German company ,do not know the process maybe dipped some how or more likely electroplated.
Just may frist 2 cents worth .


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Yogi000
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Sarg]
      #70977 - 08/02/07 06:02 AM

interesting....

Although Daryl's testimonies (and others) as to the brutal penetration capabilities of a hardened lead round ball does give me increasing confidence... although if I went hunting for grizzly in Canada I would probably opt for the double rifle in the 50 caliber edition. Yet, that is not to say the hardened lead RB would not smack a grizzly down, because they have been known to do that and certainly years ago many were hunted with black powder guns with round ball (even the soft lead variety). Certainly their fps was much lower than the 1500 - 1700 fps velocities that modern powders and load technology can throw a round ball. In fact, I think the old round balls were travelling at 1100 fps tops... Big difference in penetration there alone. Add to that the hardened aspect and there is NO comparison between what an 'old' round ball could do and what a modern shotgun with RB can do.

Edited by Yogi000 (08/02/07 06:05 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Yogi000]
      #71224 - 11/02/07 02:21 PM

You cannot hunt the big bears with a smoohbore, legaly, in B.C., only deer and black bears.
; The power is there, especially in a camp setting - nothing better than a right and left of heavy hard balls. They are certainly better than ANY 1-1/4 oz. Foster slug. The sabots are quite inferior to either. why take a .50 to a .73 battle?
: As to powders for the long case, I'd select one of the sloer burning types meant for shootng heavy shot loads and work from there. A good understanding of handloading is a pre-requisit to developing loads for the 'pelter'.
: One should have a chronograph as well, whether developing loads for a rifle or a smoothbore.
: I would expect the 3" should be capable of getting a .722" to .724" ball up to about 1,700fps without too much problem - be careful out there.
: The 'typical' heavy black powder 12 bore load of the 19th century was in the 1,500fps range. It was a kicker with 190gr. black powder. Loaded to that velocity today wiuth smokeless powder makes for a very powerful, yet moderately recoiling round, and capable of being shot in any 12 bore gun made. Results will probably be better in cylinder bores which of course, allow larger, heavier balls. The balls must be the same size or smaller than the choke constriction in a choked gun. Mic the bore and the muzzle of your gun. Most full chokes measure around .690" at the 'end choke', roughly 40 points (thou) of choke - standard.
: The shot-cup bases, if loaded cup-up underneath the ball, effectively holds them in the centre of the bore, no matter what the choke. This is how mine shot so well, even though they were only .684" in diameter at 480gr. weight, shot from .725" tubes. I put one wad base, cup-down on the powder, then wads if necessary then one cup-up to centre the ball. With black powder loads, I put a thin card wad on top of the powder to protect the plastic from melting and coating the bore. With smokeless, the temperature isn't as high and melting isn't as bad. It's pretty simple loading, but did take some time to develope the system and then accurate loads were the result.
: The 575gr. Brenneke (or Vitt-Dynamic) slugs would be about the best of full sized slugs as they're solid. Trouble is, they're also soft and aren't going very fast. Handloads can increase their speed, to Lyman's printed loads of 1,500fps. Using those loads, the round ball should develop the same or higher velocity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Yogi000
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: DarylS]
      #71966 - 20/02/07 05:50 AM

Interesting...

One of the issues I have now is: Of all the varieties I've tried the slugs are crossing with my 12 gauge double. Indeed it seems some shoot farther apart than others, yet, the faster slugs don't seem to be shooting farther. It seems more like by type.

I shot some winchester 1600 fps slugs this weekend and they were a bit less than 2 inches left or right of aim point. (Crossed). And low.

Then, of course, I just compensated and tried to HIT the bulls-eye. One of the problems with shooting .720+ sized projectiles is the bulls-eye doesn't last much more than 4 or 5 shots before you blast it away and it loses its efficacy. So you have to trudge all the way out there (through the snow) to replace the target. Oh the many hardships of shooting big bores, hahahaha!

I hear you about a chrono. My efforts would be better served with one.

I would like to cast up some of those round balls in .724 diameter (for bores of that size) and get them flinging at 1700+ fps. The trick is getting them to hit POA. Theroetically, since 1700 fps is faster than the slugs I've been shooting by 100-200 fps the 1700fps slugs should shoot even FARTHER apart, and even lower than the current 1500-1600 fps slugs I've tested. Theoretically.

We'll just have to see what they do. I'd hate to have to load the slugs up at 1400 fps or slower to get them NOT to cross. That would not be satisfactory for me.


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tinker
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: Yogi000]
      #71981 - 20/02/07 07:33 AM

Set up for the load you want, chrono it for safety, then have the gun re-regulated for that load.
That's likely cheaper and quicker than running through an infinite range of possible combinations until you find something that might work.

As I recall you've modified your SxS to some extent with recoil reducers and a big recoil pad.
That'd screw with it's 'original' regulation anyway.

Choose a load and have it done!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Yogi000
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Re: Shotgun Slugs (...again!) [Re: tinker]
      #72076 - 21/02/07 05:42 AM

Tinker: Interesting observation and possible conclusion.

Yet I did shoot this double BEFORE I did anything to it and it was crossing and shooting low then as well. However, I think your reasoning is sound and it could certainly change a gun that was shooting to POA.

But in my case it shoots to the same Points before and after recoil management hardware was installed.


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