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hoppdoc
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Loc: Southeastern USA
BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN??
      #60463 - 28/07/06 06:23 AM

I consider the most dangerous NA game to be --BIG BEARS-be it Griz, Brown bear or polar bear.

Question--
If you had to b/u someone and carry a short range "stopper' would you prefer a big Double over a slugged shotgun, sxs or semiautomatic? My friends tell me Fishermen in Alaska usually prefer slugged shotty's.They feel they penetrate and kill well on any bear encountered.Theyfeel the harsh weather would select a shotty over a Double as well.
My gut makes me lean to a semiauto with brenneke slugs for sheer firepower but if a prudent concern for reliabilty/penetration power in harsh environments surfaces then a double rifle may beat out any SG. Choosing between a slugged double barreled shotty and a Double rifle would be less hard the bigger the bear got. as the Doubles penetration would probably play the trump card in this matchup.
UGGH!
A stainless steel synthetic DR for NA hunting just flashed before my eyes!

Any thoughts on ultimate close range stoppers for bear attacks? Sometimes that big bore bolt may not cut it.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (28/07/06 06:26 AM)


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NE450No2
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60473 - 28/07/06 02:07 PM

hoppdoc
The reason so many people carry a shot gun is that they are inexpensive.

A big calibre double would be a much better choice... But they are just to expensive.

I would prefer a 45/70 Marlin Guide gun to any shotgun.
I have shot deer and pigs with a slug... same animals with a 45/70.
I would much prefer the Marlin, while not as good as a double it is affordable for anyone who values their hide.
I would also carry a 44 mag revolver if legal,[it is not in Canada for example].


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #60479 - 28/07/06 02:35 PM

I agree with 450, and I live here, doing a lot of field work in the summer on the backside of nowhere along salmon streams. I have carried shotguns, I've carried handguns and I've carried rifles. My current long arm for bear protection is a 411 Hawk stoked with 400 grain Woodleighs.

Just any old slug doesn't cut it. I've seen bears wounded and get away from folks using the "Foster" type slugs. They are just too soft and density is too low. James Gates at Dixie Slugs is supplying some Paradox slugs that I would feel comfortable carrying.

I had rather rely on a rifle rather than a shotgun if possible. If you are really concerned, check out James' Terminator or Predator slugs, or get a 458, cut the barrel to 18-20" and load with some 500 grain premium bullets.

For this Alaskan, I prefer a rifle.

By the way, Professional guides here in Alaska that guide for bear carry rifles, not shotguns, for backup. 416's and 458's are the norm. I do not know a single one that carries a shotgun for that purpose.


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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #60531 - 29/07/06 09:41 PM

My personal big bear rifle is a 338 all weather Ruger rebarreled and redone to 458 WM by Labounty.It sports a red dot scope of late.Doubt I would use the red dot for prolonged use in a harsh environment.When the red dot goes the scope is useless.

Although its penetration will exceed a Brenneke slug considerably I really enjoy carrying the non scoped Beretta semi with Brennekes.I can shoot the shotgun 3x before I canget the bolt down for a second shot on the 458.

What would be the Ultimate NA/Alaskan bear gun for harsh environments?
How about a 470 or 500 NE stainless Double rifle with synthetic stockwork? GAG!! Would that not be an ugly thing? But it would get the job done repeatedly with the most reliability.

I hereby volunteer to test such a gun if any manufacturor would actually consider making it!!



--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (29/07/06 09:45 PM)


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577Enfield
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #61982 - 01/09/06 08:48 AM

I tend to carry my 12 gauge SxS shotgun loaded with slugs for bears. That said I have not had to use it in an attack situation where I needed a stopper. My 458 Lott would certainly be a good cartridge, but in a Ruger #1 I would rather have at least a second shot. My 577's are slow loaders for second shots so the double slug gun is my first choice.

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WyoJoe
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #62003 - 02/09/06 06:44 AM

In reply to:

I would prefer a 45/70 Marlin Guide gun to any shotgun.




Ditto. I lived in Alaska for about 2-1/2 years and if I was doing it all over again that would be the way I would go.

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #62525 - 16/09/06 07:05 AM

The very best bear stoppers at touching ranges, are 12 bore Pump guns loaded with solid round balls.
: A properly trained shooter can shoot much faster with a pump than with an autoloader. Working the slide brings the barrel back to bear, without having to muscle it down. It happens automatically - with training, 3 aimed shots at 25 feet in less than 2 seconds are easily done - You need only practise! Start with trap loads. Model 870 20" bl. riot guns are my favourite (and specialty). They're what I trained our local riot squad boys on. I used to slam 6 B27 silouettes at 25 yards in 3 seconds, using buckshot loads, as a demo, of course. This is difficult if not impossible to do with an auto. You should have 3 empties in the air at once.
: A properly loaded pump, will have those round balls almost or at bore size (non-chokes only), and at a safe velocity of 1,400fps to 1,500fps. This is easily ackomplished with SR4756 powder or Unique or Herco if you wish. Safe load development is necessary. Lyman shotshell handbook has some data for reference.
: Factory slugs will work OK, but I'd much prefer the 1-1/4 ounce solid round ball at the African BP equivalent velocity of 1,500fps. 545gr. of solid lead is better than 437 to 500gr. of hollowbased soft lead from the factory Foster slugs. Any big bore rifle (like a .375 or .458) is better than the undersized 12 bore sabots.
: The above is about the most slam you can get in a rapid firing gun. My smoothbore made 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards, plenty good enough for close range hunting or protection.
: Stay away from black powder loads for these fast firing, defense loads. Due to the amount of powder required (as in the African BP loads) recoil is extremely high in an 8 pound gun and fast shooting is next to impossible. Too, the smoke hides the quarry.
: Shooting round balls in 12 bore is fun, as is the load development involved. They can be accurate, much more so than hollow based factory ammo. Smaller balls, like .615" RB's fit inside 12 bore trap wads, and can be an easy way to develope lighter round ball loads. They are very light, though, only running 320gr. or so. So- 2, .615" round balls weighs about 640 gr. which is almost 1-1/2 ounces, a most lethal impact at close range. A 12 bore will drive 1-1/2 ounces up to about 1,400fps with safe breech pressure. There are no real limits for someone with imagination and ability to develop his own data - tread softly here. This is only for those who understand what they're doing.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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470Nitro
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #71124 - 10/02/07 07:14 AM

Something like....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL7-UdGc

--------------------
-----
down by the river on a friday night
pyramid of cans in the pale moonlight
talkin' 'bout guns and dreamin 'bout women
never had a plan just a livin' for the minute


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Double_Trouble
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 470Nitro]
      #71125 - 10/02/07 07:58 AM

MAYDAY!

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #71195 - 11/02/07 07:06 AM

That'd get the adrenilin up, eh.
: One of those popping it's teeth at you from 5 yards away at 2AM just outside the tent is another. It's amazing how quiet the snorer's are when that's coming down.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AzGuy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 470Nitro]
      #71228 - 11/02/07 03:25 PM

Wonder why the guy (right side of frame) with a shotgun didn't fire any least a warning shot..??

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AzGuy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AzGuy]
      #71229 - 11/02/07 03:29 PM

BTW, I agree with Daryl on the best stopper. Mine is a 12 gauge 870 Remington Marine Mag. Stainless Steel 3" with 7 shot capacity. When I'm not in Alaska, it sits an arms reach away from my bed. I sleep very well thank you.

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tinker
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: AzGuy]
      #71267 - 12/02/07 02:54 AM

Warning shot?
I'd feel the shooting that led to the charge to be enough of a warning...



--Tinker


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Shanster
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: tinker]
      #71403 - 13/02/07 03:45 PM

nice shot with a pucker factor of about 10.
Sow with cubs at 8 yards 99.999 chance of getting mauled.
Shannon


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Paatti
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Shanster]
      #72197 - 22/02/07 07:37 AM

12 pump may be quite good choice, but I personally take sxs or O/U if have to take a shotgun. I have used 870 rem as my primary shotgun for 11 years now and I thought that have learned something about it. Pump action could be very fast but I disagree what Daryl_s said that pump is much faster than autoloader. Autoloader is allways faster than pump but pump is allways more reliable.
For wounded bear I might use 9,3x74R/12g combigun and if there is larger bullet caliber available I prefer that. For 9,3 I choose 320gr Woodleigh and for 12g 8,6mm buckshot.


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DM
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Paatti]
      #72217 - 22/02/07 10:59 AM

I've spent a lot of time bear hunting and have harvested several, includeing browns... I see most folks here, like on other sites that answer these kinds of questions, are always focused on how many shots they can get off, or at least the second or third shot. My experience has been that "one" in the right spot is much better than several someplace else! This is one time when you need to "break" the animial down, not do the "spray and pray" or even rib shoot it! It only takes one shot to break a bear down, giveing you plenty of time for the follow up killing shot.

I've never felt undergunned with anything from a "properly loaded" 7 mag. on up, and i built my custom bear rifle in .338-06. I've not had any problems at all flattening big bears with that rifle and i prefer 275 grain Speers loaded in it.

I'd pick a rifle every time over a shotgun, and a double rifle would be great!! Like was said, it's the cost of one that holds folks back...

How many of you suggesting "your weapon idea" is best, has actually hunted and harvested a big bear with that weapon???

DM


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Paatti
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DM]
      #72261 - 22/02/07 06:16 PM

I think that quite many who suggested shotgun for a bear thought about attacking bear and close ranges. I used to use my 9,3x62 battue rifle in brownbear (there are only brownies in finland) hunting and it would be good choice in any bear situations.
If there was situation that bear attacks on you at 30 mph and you get your first shot at 20 yds could you really stop that attack before that bear reach you?


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DM
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Paatti]
      #72379 - 24/02/07 02:40 AM

Quote:

If there was situation that bear attacks on you at 30 mph and you get your first shot at 20 yds could you really stop that attack before that bear reach you?




To answer with "one" word, yes!

I see it this way. I have 2 choises, concentrate on the second, third or ? shot (spray and pray theory) OR concentrate on the first shot. I choose to concentrate on the first shot, let them come close and break them down with the first shot. There's plenty of time for more shooting after that.

I was charged one time by a brown bear, meaning the bear actually had me in her sights and had two big cubs with her. I stood my ground letting her get to within 30 yards where she broke off and stopped. She was comeing down hill, and comeing fast! I was going to let her come a bit closer and drop her, but she saved her own life. There's no doubt that she would have been a dead bear. That's not too bad considering how many times over the years i've jumped them in the tall grass or alders...

I was charged by a large german shepard dog that there's NO DOUBT would have done me harm. His problem was, i had a S&W revolver with me, and at the shot he slid to my feet....dead. Over the years i've also been charged by moose....

All of these incidents have long stories to go with them, and i'm only up to "two fingers" with my typeing, so they are too long to relate today. hahahaa

DM


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DM]
      #72423 - 24/02/07 02:23 PM

DM,

Bravo, man. That's what firearms are for!
Thanks for your post.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Paatti]
      #72433 - 24/02/07 04:55 PM

If you shoot a charging bear at 20 yards in Alaska, it is very likely you will be fined heavily. To be considered defenseable in life or property, the bear better have powder burns on it when you kill it. I'm only half joking. As described above, it is very difficult to tell when or if a bear is going to stop its charge. The bear doesn't know.

Best is to plan on one shot, make it close and make it good. Unless you have a bear tag in your pocket...


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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #72443 - 24/02/07 09:51 PM

DM is correct--

With Bears the FIRST SHOT must "break 'em down" and stop the attack.This should be into the vital chest/shoulder region depending on the angle presented.Subsequent shots should be heart/lung with a finisher to the CNS if needed.

Bears are incredibly quick when they choose to be.They are heavy boned and can be tough to kill.

Best Gun? Personal choice but bear means "BIG BORE RIFLE "to me.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/02/07 09:54 PM)


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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #74226 - 21/03/07 05:38 AM

Quote:

If you shoot a charging bear at 20 yards in Alaska, it is very likely you will be fined heavily. To be considered defenseable in life or property, the bear better have powder burns on it when you kill it. I'm only half joking. As described above, it is very difficult to tell when or if a bear is going to stop its charge. The bear doesn't know.

Best is to plan on one shot, make it close and make it good. Unless you have a bear tag in your pocket...




When elk hunting this year I turned a blackie at 1 foot with a poke in the nose of my Hawkins 50 cal. I was roaring and yelling at him from about 20 yards out. This bear had absolutely no fear of humans, he turned around after about 10 yards to look at me again, then walked away. I did not have a license, so I didn't want to shoot. I did have that front bead right on his noggin though! If it had been a brownie, I think would have dropped him 10 yards out....if the old Hawkins would have done it.

I can read blackies pretty well having dealt with a lot of camp raiders, but I know nothing about the Brownies.


BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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458Win
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #74308 - 22/03/07 11:05 AM

Except for possibly DPhillips I wonder how many others who answered here have actually delt with big bears up close, much less had to stop a real charge.
My personal preference for the past twenty five years has been my short 458 Win Mauser bolt rifle but in answer to the original question I would un-hesitantly take a big double rifle over any shotgun. I have used shotguns on black bears but having to face a wounded, charging Brown or Polar Bear with one would scare me to death.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


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BlainSmipy
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 458Win]
      #75011 - 30/03/07 07:05 AM

Quote:

Except for possibly DPhillips I wonder how many others who answered here have actually dealt with big bears up close, much less had to stop a real charge.
My personal preference for the past twenty five years has been my short 458 Win Mauser bolt rifle but in answer to the original question I would un-hesitantly take a big double rifle over any shotgun. I have used shotguns on black bears but having to face a wounded, charging Brown or Polar Bear with one would scare me to death.




How many charging brown bears have you stopped? You seem to condescend with authority and vast amounts of experience, so please pontificate to us your expertize in this area. We all really want pointers from a true X-pert like you. You point out a 458 Win as your preferred charging bear killer, why? What is your load for this slayer of fast moving Ursus arctos horribilis? Do you favor solids or soft-points and of what brand? Do you aim for the brain or chest? Do you have any photos of these downed bruins you have battled with?

Thank you ever so much for the information,

BS

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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WyoJoe
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #75095 - 31/03/07 02:03 AM

Quote:

How many charging brown bears have you stopped? You seem to condescend with authority and vast amounts of experience, so please pontificate to us your expertize in this area. We all really want pointers from a true X-pert like you. You point out a 458 Win as your preferred charging bear killer, why? What is your load for this slayer of fast moving Ursus arctos horribilis? Do you favor solids or soft-points and of what brand? Do you aim for the brain or chest? Do you have any photos of these downed bruins you have battled with?

Thank you ever so much for the information,

BS




Blain,
Phil knows what he is talking about. He makes a better part of his living guiding bear hunters in Alaska. So he has probably faced down more than one charge. Also he writes for some of the most popular publications. He is one of the few people writing that can be trust to tell it the way it is.

If you can get ahold of it you might like the article he wrote called "A Rigby in the Outhouse". It is humorous but about where they had to keep a rifle in their outhouse because they live in bear country and could get trapped there.

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.


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