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NitroX
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Zim PH hunting in the NT
#5956 - 21/12/03 01:45 AM

Saw this comment elsewhere on the net.

In reply to:

a PH from Zimbabwe that was kicked off his land, he is quite well known and is presently setting up a new Safari company in OZ...With his some 16 years experience in Africa, primarily dangerous game he should be more than able to run a first class outfit in OZ, bringing a lot of Zim knowledge as to camps and camp managment with him....

Aussie members in particular - what do you think of these comments and what the reaction might be in the Top End ?

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Bakes
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#5976 - 21/12/03 11:14 AM

Well this isn't Zim. And (this may sound selfish)Its hard enough to find a hunting property, this might, if he's succesful,close down some propertys for some people. I know I'd be pissed off if the station owner told me I couldn't hunt anymore because an outfitter had taken over the place. I know its not my place and the owner can do as he wishes, but it'll still bite the big one. Plus another outfitter catering for the overpaid. This will drive the price of a buff hunt out of reach,if it already isn't, of the average Aussie.

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4seventy
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: Bakes]
#5980 - 21/12/03 01:16 PM

Bakes,
It sounds like you feel that the high cost (to Aussie hunters) for a buff hunt is the fault of outfitters here.
Do you not agree that some/most of the blame can be placed on the government erradication programme.

Are you aware of how prices for buff hunting have changed since the numbers of these animals have been affected due to the programme?

I mean there seems to be a thing in Aus where all outfitters are put into the same group and have to cop a bagging from hunters who in some cases may have easy access to hunting land and as such cannot understand why there is a need for others to pay for their hunting.

Some dudes can fix their own vehicles while others pay a mechanic.
Just the way it is.

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mickey
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#5988 - 21/12/03 02:03 PM

In reply to:

Saw this comment elsewhere on the net.

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a PH from Zimbabwe that was kicked off his land, he is quite well known and is presently setting up a new Safari company in OZ...With his some 16 years experience in Africa, primarily dangerous game he should be more than able to run a first class outfit in OZ, bringing a lot of Zim knowledge as to camps and camp managment with him....

It's about time you backward hics were taught how to run a proper camp.

I figure he will learn allot more about Aussie hunting than the reverse. Where is he going to find the dollar a day staff and the $800/day clients? Seems like allot of arrogance on the part of the author, someone who has never been to Australia?

Maybe he will have to smuggle drugs? Oh wait, that has been tried hasn't it.

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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Bakes
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: 4seventy]
#5992 - 21/12/03 07:37 PM

Yep thats how I feel. After the erradication programme what have the government done since? The buff numbers have built up again, not to they once were, but they are there. Whats the trophy fee for a Buff? $3-4000? up to $10,000? You can't blame the government. The outfitters are chasing the rich US/European hunters. I'm suprised there not charging $US as the guys in Africa do.

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4seventy
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: Bakes]
#5993 - 21/12/03 08:18 PM

Buff numbers have built up again?
$3000 to $4000 up to $10,000 for NT buff trophy fees?
Up to $10,000 trophy fee???

I have to ask which outfitters are getting anywhere near ten grand trophy fees for asian buffalo here?

I would also ask if you ever saw NT buffalo numbers before the programme took its toll?

I'm not "blaming" the government.
I'm saying that the significant reduction in buffalo numbers as a result of the government cull means that prices go up for the remaining animals.

The point here is that not ALL Aussie outfitters chase the "rich" overseas clients and nor do ALL Aussie outfitters charge trophy fees like those you mention.

This all tends to suggest that ALL Aussie outfitters are overcharging and are actually ripping clients off.
Not so.

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Bakes
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: 4seventy]
#5994 - 21/12/03 10:41 PM

I don't know the fee for a buff hence the ? I do know that its above $1000.

In reply to:

I have to ask which outfitters are getting anywhere near ten grand trophy fees for asian buffalo here?

Now I don't know for sure, but if Bob Penfold was charging $1000 to sleep in a tent.....I'd hate to see his trophy fee

And I never saw the numbers before the slaughter, but yes they are building back up. When you have outfitters trucking in Buff for clients to shoot they have to be comming from somewhere. I know of one station about a 10 minutes drive from where I live that breeds buff....hmmmmm and I know he lost 60 last year when they started breaking a mates mango trees

Yes and your right not all chase the US clients.....but most do. I have a mate that guided around Katherine. He was doing alright, prices were low, service was good. Then another outfitter offered the Aborigional community more money if they went with him as he had overseas clients lined up. Needless to say my mate was out of a job. Now I know not everybodys like that but it left a bitter taste in my mates mouth, concidering that he was married to a abrigional woman from that community. The power of the greenback!

But hey I see from your profile that your a guide. Mate if you are offering a good low price hunt then I applaud you, but you have to admit there are some shonky dealers out there.

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NitroX
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: Bakes]
#5997 - 22/12/03 01:52 AM

I had several reactions to the statement.

1. How good of this fellow to come out and teach us idiot colonials how to run a safari and hunting camp!

But then he is also a colonial.

I think the pampered life of the Zim PH may be in for a shock when there is no one to cook meals for the client, no one to do the daily laundry, no one to drive the 'cruiser for him, no one to do his tracking for him, no one to skin and cape the buff for him.

The Aboriginals would laugh at him when he offers $300 a year for slave labour while charging clients US$800 a day!

No "management" here, hands on is what is required!

2. I also thought, oh great, prices will be going up!

Considering the professional hunting industries in Southern Africa have priced the local hunters completely out of the buff market and any sort of trophy hunting, we don't want these foreignors doing it here.

Even now a water buff hunt is the same price almost as a cape buff in Southern Africa, which to me is ridiculous.

3. I do sympathise however. Lots of Zim's in Aust now, most living on charity as they are not allowed to work. Many were prosperous and hard working farmers, so if he does setup here I hope his loyalties are also given and he understands how things work here.

4. Mmmm - the NT outfitters like their closed shop.

5. I wondered if he is one of the Zim PH's who were looking to bash Bob Penfold for saying it wasn't safe to hunt in Zim, better to hunt in a safe country like Aussie.

Mickey - I didn't know that individual has never hunted here. I guess the sudden interest is in how to make a quid down here.

It will be interesting to see if or how this turns out.

Again it is a pity we don't have outfitter support and government support for a professional hunters assoc in Aust. I like the rule of citizens only - ie as in Zim.

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4seventy
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#6016 - 22/12/03 09:41 AM

Nitro,
If a "government supported PH Assoc" means some sort of government regulatery authority, is it any wonder that not too many in the safari industry want anything to do with it?
Do the words "Buy Back" ring any warning bells?
The actions of a couple of assholes resulted in all legitimate ozzie gun owners/hunters/shooters being punished.
I'm not sure that I'm ready to be "regulated" in my safari business operations in a similar fashion to the way I'm regulated regarding what firearms I can/cannot own.

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NitroX
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: 4seventy]
#6021 - 22/12/03 11:01 AM

4seventy

a lot of PH or Pro Guides Associations are self-regulating. But there may be a requirement to operate as a guide a person must be a qualified member.

It does not need to even have that, as it can be voluntary and then its members can advertise it as being ethical hunting.

ie no shooting deer in 10 acre pens, deer farms etc. No spotlighted "trophies", no shooting from helicopters for "trophies" (we even have a guy by the name of Mark Sullivan in the NT who advertises these sorts of hunts!). No spotting game from helos and getting out for a quick shot etc etc.

This sort of stuff is going more on than is ever published. Just look at some 'writers' deer heads and then fish for the true stories. It is a wonder why the good operators don't want to see it cleaned up?

Maybe an ethical qualified Zim PH could be a positive influence after all!!!

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4seventy
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#6028 - 22/12/03 01:10 PM

Nitro.
I know where you're coming from on this and I do agree with what you are saying, but....
Cleaning up the system would require a lot more than a voluntary PH Assoc.
I mean it's not just the shonky guides who are at fault.
If there were no shonky clients wanting to shoot pen bred tied up animals the shonky guides would not survive.
The shonky client wants a shonky hunt so a shonky outfitter sets up a shonky outfit which is then seen by other shonky clients who also want shonky hunts which leads to more shonky outfits and on it goes.
The outfitters and the clients paying them are BOTH to blame.

Personally I do not have any problem with becoming a volunteer member of a PH Assoc if it turned out to be a benefit to both clients and guides and the whole Aussie hunting scene in general.

But if this Assoc has any sort of membership fee or their existance costs the outfitter in any way, who is going to pay?

Over the years I've known of a few things that have gone on regarding certain clubs and associations and this has made me just a tad wary.

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mickey
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: 4seventy]
#6040 - 22/12/03 06:10 PM

The easiest way to stop all of these abuses is for SCI to refuse to put High Fence animals in their Record Book or to allow them to be entered or counted for any award program. These things happen because of the very large egos of some rich shooters and if they couldn't get bragging rights to the biggest or best they would not be doing it. They don't shoot for the love of Hunting but for the love of recognition.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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cr500
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: Bakes]
#6053 - 23/12/03 08:46 AM

I think we should give him a go and see how he goes. If he is charging the $800 a day mentioned, well then I wont get to meet him. But if some people who can afford it book with him, well at least some people are spending money here. Ive worked with some ex Zimbaweans (in the mining game ,not hunting) and they were a pretty good lot, the ones I met were good blokes.
I would rather go for the normal Aussie type hunt while in OZ ,but maybe some out there would rather the African champagne type safari. As for the ones charging $10000 for a buff, jeeze ,who would pay that, it would buy a good long hunt with other outfitters. If there is a market out there for that sort of thing ,then let buisness be buisness.

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NitroX
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: cr500]
#6073 - 23/12/03 08:47 PM

If this happens we may just finally have the answer to:

"which of the African Cape Buffalo or Asian Water Buffalo is the more dangerous to hunt?"

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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atkinson6
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#7549 - 27/01/04 05:33 PM

Some of you have really taken my post out of context...I think your a little petty in your postings...

This PH is not coming to teach you anything, has no clue about this forum, I am the one who believe the Africans are better at running tented Safari camps than the Americans, Canadians, Russians, Alaskans and Aussies..I have been to them all, the Africans have been doing it longer that anyone else, and this is only my opinnion...

If this forum is only about Aussie nationalism and not about hunting issues then then its doomed....I love Australia and have many friends in the hunting business over there and see no reason for this issue to come about.

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NitroX
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: atkinson6]
#7554 - 27/01/04 06:06 PM

"If this forum is only about Aussie nationalism "

Ray

Good to see you've found the thread I emailed you about.

Maybe you should take several breaths and look a bit further before making judgements.

But please elaborate what will this gentleman do what the current operators aren't doing? Especially in terms of management. Who is he going to manage? My understanding is most outfiiters here have a staff of .... one in many cases.

The blackfellas in Aust don't work cheap. And not seven days a week or even several days in a row.

PS If he does set up in the Top End I hope he does make a success of it. Especially as it is likely he will probably live here for good.

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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mickey
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#7558 - 27/01/04 07:48 PM

I'd rather have a bit more Spartan camp and forget about all of the froo froo that comes from a lavish camp. I just feel I'm being treated more as a hunter than a visiting Prince.

I also fear that hunting will become to expensive with a top set up, like it is in Africa and that will cut out too many good hunters and let in to many Rich Collectors.

Don't you guys feel that too many first timers to Africa come back and the first thing they comment on is the fancy camps and the hunting seems to be a distant second place.

Maybe that's fine as it is their money but it bugs me anyway. In case you haven't noticed allot of things bug me.

--------------------
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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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atkinson6
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: mickey]
#7576 - 28/01/04 09:49 AM

I have no problem with the pros and cons of this discussion as to who is the best qualified or best trained to run a camp or who likes or dislikes lavish camps if indeed that is what a bush camp is, I always just considered them comfortable or not..Lavish is a hotel suite to me....

what I have a problem with is the indignation of me suggesting the Africans are better trained at this sort of thing...They are but who gives a shit, why get your spuds in an uproar over such trivial stuff as that...I thought nothing of it, much less being accused of attacking a bunch of mates of whos company and beer I have enjoyed on more than one ocassion

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cr500
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: atkinson6]
#7803 - 30/01/04 09:54 AM

I would like to go on a hunt in Africa soon and plan to when the funds allow. I would like to try the whole African experience and from what Ive seen ,the camps in my budget range wont be too luxurious. If he comes to OZ, it would be good chatting to him around the campfire after the hunt about things in Zimbabwe. You are right though ,he will find it a lot harder here, the aboriginals wont be as easy to work with. Nothing against them ,but Ive lived in Zambia and Northern Territory and the locals are definitley different. From what Ive seen with the Zimbabweans in the mining industry, they wont be able to show us what to do over here, but will work in with us. Some of the blokes I got on with best in mine work were ex Zimbabweans/now aussies.

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gryphon
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: cr500]
#7811 - 30/01/04 11:36 AM

Don't you guys feel that too many first timers to Africa come back and the first thing they comment on is the fancy camps and the hunting seems to be a distant second place.

Yep Mickey i agree with that comment,the SCI mag seems to place the camp itself on such a high level that often articles have more about the camp than the game,which i suspect in some of those cases are of the variety that dont do it for me.(U know Mickey)

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NitroX
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: gryphon]
#7815 - 30/01/04 12:30 PM

I don't mind luxury camps. Luxury as in a nice solid chalet with a cool high thatched roof, ensuite shower and toilet. Or a thatched roof over a nice tent is OK too. One thing to say about these thatched roofs is they make it so much cooler. A second tarp over can help but is no way as good.

Nice thatched dining area or sitting area, usually open walls on most sides is usual too. Never hunted in the cold months so don't know how comfortable they would be then, as when I has always been there the nights are cool to warm.

A camp overlooking a waterhole is great too. With BigFive in 2002 the camp we were at had a floodlit waterhole. It was nice to watch the kudu, waterbuck and impala come in to drink. Even more fun to watch when something was making the antelope nervous and jumpy. You could see a ripple in the animals as the predator moved along in the darkness beyond.

Some hunters prefer tented camps for the "true" safari experience. I don't, I will take luxury when I'm paying for it anyway. I'm not paying top dollar for a dirty tent stuck under a hot tree in the bush when the price is the same anyway.

It makes a nice difference from here in Australia where I usually just roll out a swag and then get bitten all night by ants and mosquitoes.

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Bakes
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#7850 - 30/01/04 05:18 PM

In reply to:

It makes a nice difference from here in Australia where I usually just roll out a swag and then get bitten all night by ants and mosquitoes

In the RAAF we get issued those mozzie domes, They are great, no more ants/mossies/snakes.....

I don't use it when patroling, but its set up back at the KP where we stake out the dogs in between patrols.

Edited by Bakes (30/01/04 05:19 PM)

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luv2safari
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: cr500]
#9132 - 16/02/04 05:10 AM

I've hunted with Zim PH's and found them to be honest and hard working guys...just trying to get by like you and I. They charged reasonable prices...about $300/day, and much of that went to the concession owners. These guys have had a lot of shit come down on them, and many lost what generations of their families had built.

I do have sympathy for them...and for the Aussie outfitters, too. It is getting harder to make a buck these days! There is no simple answer to your predicament, or his.

There are just too damned many of us humans nowadays. If you lived here in Nevada all your life and hunted and fished here for all that time, you would know from where I speak.

When I was a kid in the 50's there were 100,000 people in the entire State, Reno and Las Vegas included...it was paradise for a young hunter! Now, there are 2.7 million, and we are the fastest growing State in the US. With the population growth and the gold mining explosion, our hunting has gone right down the crapper. I have NOT even drawn a single deer tag here in my native State in three years! Prices to even apply are skyrocketing, as well.

Just to apply for our various sheep hunts, deer hunt, elk hunt, mountain goat hunt, and pronghorn hunt costs around $800.00...for a RESIDENT! If you don't get drawn for the various tags, the fucking Department of Wildlife keeps about $200.00 of your money to buy a stamp and mail back your refund.

Watch your Government hacks like a hawk, my Aussie friends! I'd hate to see the same things happen to your wonderful land. Remember that the Zim guys are just trying to feed their families, however.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Edited by luv2safari (03/03/04 08:56 AM)

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NitroX
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: luv2safari]
#9163 - 16/02/04 11:57 AM

I may have the pleasure to meet this gentleman soon for a drink. I have a brochure of his hunts and he has chosen to make Australia his home. As with any new person emigrating to this country I welcome him and hope his new endeavour works out.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroX
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Re: Zim PH hunting in the NT [Re: NitroX]
#10697 - 03/03/04 01:46 AM

I did have the pleasure of having lunch on the farm with this gentleman this afternoon and had a nice long chat. He ran his farm in Gwayi until unfortunately mid last year when it was taken over.

The concession in the Northern Territory looks very promising with good numbers of wild water buffalo, wild pigs including razorbacks, scrub bulls, should have excellent fishing and waterfowling during season. Plus if the Aussie Federal government gets its act into gear a quote of estuarine saltwater crocodiles as well.

Some of the countryside looks very picturesque as well. A grand place to hunt for a true NT safari. Buff, bull, boar and barramundi. What more can you ask for!

He will bring his excellent PHing skills to the party. I had a look through his photo album with numerous elephant including a 90 lb tusker taken by a recent client !

Maybe if I am lucky I might get a look at the concession later this year. I definitely plan to report back.

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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