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bulldog563
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Dacron or Kapok?
      #59269 - 25/06/06 01:20 PM

Dacron or Kapok for use as a filler in bottleneck cases? Is there a difference? I know Kapok is a natural substance while Dacron is man made but do they perform differently when used as a filler? Any comments appreciated.

Also if anyone has good loads for the 450-400 3.25" please see my post in reloading.

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470evans
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: bulldog563]
      #59277 - 25/06/06 09:50 PM

I can only report on limited use of Dacron. I have also used foam effectively. Others can report with more experience. Haven't heard anyone recently using Kapok.

I use it in a 400 3 inch and find it does the job well.

The RCBS Chargemaster electronic scale/dispenser makes it a breeze to weigh correctly. The scale/dispenser were around $300 but were definately a good pick up.



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Rusty
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: 470evans]
      #59302 - 26/06/06 09:05 PM

I use the Dacron. I have a medium size funnel that I pull the Dacron thru and then cut to length with siccors. this gets the weight close to start. Electronic sclaes help.

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bulldog563
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: Rusty]
      #59304 - 26/06/06 09:56 PM

Was there a reason you chose Dacron over Kapok? Is there any difference between the two? Am I just over analyzing this?

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Judson
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: bulldog563]
      #59332 - 27/06/06 08:19 AM


Have you ever thought about using foam? It works great in my .450#2, you do not have to weigh it and it is cheep and fills the case nicely. Where it is spongy it expands and fills the empty space well and does a great job of keeping the powder against the primer where it should be. The foam I use is the gray stuff like that found in some gun cases, you can get it at most upolstery shops. I cut it out with a punch and stuff it into the case.

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DoubleD
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: Judson]
      #59360 - 28/06/06 03:34 AM

I know that a lot of the fellows here prefer Dacron, because Ross says...but from my tests I have come to prefer Kapok.

My loading involving fillers is centered around loading NfB loads in the Fat Boy 577/450 Martini case. It is a big bodied bottle necked case.

The various foams wouldn't fill the body so the were not considered.

Dacron worked just fine, at least it looked like it did. Then I tried kapok.

First thing I noticed was down range debris from kapok was minimal compared to dacron. Recovered pieces of dacron were quite large, sometimes appearing to be no loss of material. Dacron debris was always found after testing no matter how little was used.

Large clumps of Kapok were none existance. As I write this I don't recall finding any. Small volumes of 1 to 3 grains kapok never resulted in any debris being found after firing. When I got into the area of heavily compressed volumes of 5 to 7 grains kapok, debris did show up down range floating in the air.

Here is a picture we took to show it. That's not snow falling, that's kapok!!


At the time I just figured the kapok was being blown apart by the muzzle blast and the Dacron was not.

While working on loads I got some hang fires and noticed that even though the powder hadn't ignited the kapok appeared burned.


I wanted to do some sort of test to try and show that the kapok was being burned. I loaded a primed case as full as I could get with kapok, topped it off with a wax wad and fired it. (Firing only caused the wad to protrude from the case.)


This close up shows the burned and unburned fibers. You can see the long unburned fibers quite well. The burned fibers are the black dots. I also noticed that the fibers appeared broken up or shattered into a fine powder. All this burned material came from a primer only.


I believe the kapok is being burned and the fibers being shattered then expelled out the barrel when fired. This is why I never found any large clumps of kapok down range. I didn't test any Dacron in this manner as by this time I had pretty much eliminated it from consideration.

As side note I also used Kapok as a filler for blackpowder loads in the Martini and found as I used greater and greater volumes my groups got smaller. I think I was getting some moderate benefit from the compression of the powder by the compression of the filler. That is something that is difficult to do with blackpowder in a bottleneck cartridge.

Where to get Kapok. Try upholstery or furniture repair shops. I also have a supplier listed on my Internet Sites for Martinis, Related Material and Subjects website. Here that supplier is:
Kapok - http://www.atrim.com/Page11.html
They offer 10 lb bags for $35 USD. You can buy smaller quatities from E-Bay but it is more expensive.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Rusty
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: bulldog563]
      #59362 - 28/06/06 04:03 AM

The ejected Dacron out of my 450/400 3 inch using RL-15 looks as if it can be reloaded again. It is not burnt and there isn't a "snow shower" of white drifting across the range!

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500grains
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: Rusty]
      #59366 - 28/06/06 05:04 AM

Could DG follow the filler back to its source like a tracer round?

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bulldog563
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: 500grains]
      #59367 - 28/06/06 05:35 AM

Only in a 45-70.

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Dutch44
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: bulldog563]
      #59368 - 28/06/06 07:17 AM

I always used cotton in my NFB 450-400 3 1/4 loads and my schuetzen loads. Never a problem but it will come out in clumps. There is always a space between the cotton and the breach loaded bullet in my schuetzen rifles. Never a ringed chamber and accuracy is exceptional. In my Rigby I make sure there is no space between the filler and the projectile.

Dutch


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DoubleD
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: Rusty]
      #59369 - 28/06/06 08:25 AM

In reply to:

The ejected Dacron out of my 450/400 3 inch using RL-15 looks as if it can be reloaded again. It is not burnt and there isn't a "snow shower" of white drifting across the range!




In reply to:

I always used cotton in my NFB 450-400 3 1/4 loads and my schuetzen loads. Never a problem but it will come out in clumps. There is always a space between the cotton and the breach loaded bullet in my schuetzen rifles. Never a ringed chamber and accuracy is exceptional. In my Rigby I make sure there is no space between the filler and the projectile.





Exactlly my worry. This is a bottle necked case. The filler is filling the 50 cal size case body and being compressed even more trying to go out the 45 cal neck under pressure when fired. I was very concerned that that the Dacron was staying intact and slugging up as it was extruding through the funnel of the case neck.

It appeared the Dacron may have been be doing just that. I got neck stretching firing compressed dacron filler out of the bottle neck cases.

There was no indication that the Kapok was slugging.

I also briefly tested cotton balls. I was asked by the range owner to not use cotton balls on his range, especially in the summer because they set grass fires. The cotton balls came out intact also.

Then there is pufflon, but that is something all together different...that definitely slugs!




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DD, Ret.


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Arctic
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: DoubleD]
      #59385 - 28/06/06 02:54 PM

Why not just do it the easiest way and drop a line to David at Kynoch and order some foam fillers? They come in bags of 100, cost next to nothing, and work. That's what is used in their ammo if there's more than 3/8" air space. I've found in all calibers my groups shrink and there's little variance in shots, ........and as a result, that's all you'll catch me using! His email is "sales@kynamcoammunition.co.uk"

~Arctic~

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DoubleD
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: Arctic]
      #59388 - 28/06/06 03:05 PM

Foam filler won't work in a bottle neck case!

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: DoubleD]
      #59393 - 28/06/06 04:25 PM

Kynoch uses foam in a number of bottleneck cases.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Rusty
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #59397 - 28/06/06 05:21 PM

The foam that Kynoch uses looks like a foam ear plug inserted into the case.

In reply to:

Exactlly my worry. This is a bottle necked case. The filler is filling the 50 cal size case body and being compressed even more trying to go out the 45 cal neck under pressure when fired. I was very concerned that that the Dacron was staying intact and slugging up as it was extruding through the funnel of the case neck.





Geez, folks. All we are talking about is 2.5 Darcon for a 450/400 3 inch . It isn't burnt, consumed or melted to your case or barrel. It is just spat out the muzzle. It's a whole lot more flexable that the foam!

As long as you are using a foam or Kapok the filler is the important thing. RL-15 is position sensitive. As long as you keep it against the primer you will be rewarded with some of the most uniform velocities you will ever get out of your double!
I have used Dacron filler with RL-15 in bottle necked cases for 450/400 3 inch, and 475#2 Jeffery. I have only used the filler with RL-15. I've been using it for 7 years now. For me it's easy and it works! Just my opine!



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Rusty
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bulldog563
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: Rusty]
      #59401 - 28/06/06 08:05 PM

DoubleD,

Do you think the fact that the Kapok can burn may increase the possibility of it starting a grass fire?

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DoubleD
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: bulldog563]
      #59409 - 29/06/06 03:08 AM

Actually Rusty, I'm talking 7 grains of Kapok getting spit out! I was using 2 grs. but followed you guys advice and compressed as much as I could get in the case. Improved groups also.

I have not seen any sign of the Kapok smoldering or burning when it is shot out normally. In fact I have never found any charred or burned kapok residue from any test when the primer and powder ignited normally. I only saw evidence of the burning from the misfires and when I did the primer test.

Here's a picture of one hang fires with RL15.


Cotton ball on the other had burn like crazy and stay together.

I just fear that the fillers that stay together slug up. Not good!

Just in case you don't understand what I mean by slug up. Here is a Pufflon slug from a misfire with RL-15.

Here is the slug and powder dug out. Keep in mind this slug was made from just a standard pistol primer. (Using CBC brass)






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DD, Ret.


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Rusty
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Re: Dacron or Kapok? [Re: DoubleD]
      #59417 - 29/06/06 10:42 AM

DD,
I'm sure you have read this article, but just in case here is a link to the article that John posted on the forum.
Reloading the Nitro Express

Here is what I am using


I am not compressing my powder, just not allowing it to move around a bunch. I don't think you should compress your powder. The Dacron has some natural springiness to it and I rely on that to hold the powder in place. I have NEVER had a failure to fire or malfunction of one of my handloads using my method, which I believe is outlined in Ross' article.




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Rusty
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eljefedouble
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FAO: Rusty [Re: Rusty]
      #59837 - 11/07/06 06:42 PM

Hi Rusty,
Asif, Newbie from India, near Delhi.
Have a boxlock 450/400 3" by WJ Jefferey SxS,hammerless.
family heirloom.Have only fired it with original cordite loads (55 grns, 400 grn bullet)
Saw mention about your 450/400
Any info on reloading? any sites/supplies etc?
thanks
Axx

--------------------
"it dont mean a thing, if it aint got no zing"
"Toa bunduki mkubwa"


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Rusty
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Re: FAO: Rusty [Re: eljefedouble]
      #59896 - 13/07/06 03:43 AM

Yes sir I do!
Please email me at rkmojo@aol.com I will be glad to send you what I have!

Also would you look on the under rib of the barrels near the barrel loop (where the forearm attached to the barrels. Is there a 3 or 4 digit number on the under rib?

Please read this article that John posted for me.
Reloading the Nitro Express


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Rusty
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akjeff
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Re: FAO: Rusty [Re: Rusty]
      #59918 - 13/07/06 12:44 PM

Are any of you guys using Puff-lon? ( a granulated plastic of some sort ) I've been using it in my 450 NE #2 ( a Ruger No.1 ), and it seems to work well.

Jeff


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Rusty
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Re: FAO: Rusty [Re: akjeff]
      #59944 - 14/07/06 10:58 AM

I would be concerned about powder migration into the "Puff-Lon"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Dacron or Kapok [Re: Rusty]
      #59945 - 14/07/06 11:29 AM

To all,

In past postings on this subject DoubleD has reported that Puff-Lon will coagulate into a solid mass under certain circumstances. In another thread he had a link to another BBS in which there is a long discussion of wads in the .577/.450 Martini-Henry (IIRC). I read that with interest some time back. Having just said that, I now see he reports some of his findings earlier in this thread. Maybe he can post the link to the other BBS.

Like Rusty, I cannot understand what would keep the Puff-Lon separated from the powder charge over the long run.

On the other hand, Graeme Wright speaks somewhat favorably about the use of shot buffers as fillers. I assume shot buffer is essentially the same as Puff-Lon in this application.

Just like 400NitroExpress says about monometal bullets - he's not testing them on his nickel when the tried and true is available. I feel the same way about fillers. Dacron and foam are tried and true. No Puff-Lon for me. I might try Kapok, but haven't yet.

One last note. Marrakai strongly promotes the use of saddle felt as a filler. I have never tried felt, but recently a good friend who is well versed in bore rifles and BPE rifles pointed out that Precision Reloading sells 3/8" felt wads in 32 gauge, which is the precise size you want for the .500 BPE. My friend graciously sent me a package of these wads. I plan to try them in my Purdey before long. I may become a convert to this filler.

In the same vein, why wouldn't a standard 32 gauge fiber wad do the same thing? It's used to take up space in a shotshell and does the job well.

Any comments, DoubleD and Marrakai? Or others?

By the way, Marrakai - in your NFB loads using a felt wad, do you apply any compression to the charge? Do you have a recommended NFB load for the .500 3" BPE using 340 grain lead bullets and a felt wad?

The subject of wads is always a good discussion.

Regards,
Curl



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akjeff
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Re: Dacron or Kapok [Re: CptCurl]
      #59949 - 14/07/06 12:47 PM

Rusty and Capt Curl's comments certainly have me thinking. Appreciate the discussion. Will have to do some testing. Perhaps leaving some Puff-lon filled rounds bounce around in the glove box for a while( or perhaps a tumbler, to hasten the process, and then pull the bullets and see how things look. Also would like to leave them in a hot car for while, and see if there's any merit to the coagulation theory. If it looks like there's even a hint of trouble with Puff-lon, I'll chime back in. I certainly want my rifle to be foolproof, as it will most likely go with me to Africa one day. Thanks again for the constructive comments all.

Jeff


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DoubleD
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Re: Dacron or Kapok [Re: CptCurl]
      #59950 - 14/07/06 01:37 PM

CptCurl,

Shotgun buffers were my next step in my tests, but time ran out and I had to move to South Africa where I have no gun, no loading equipment, nothing but assagai's!! Okay I do have two cast lead bullets my friend left me after shooting in the world long range shooting championships in Capetown.

First a word of caution about brass shotgun cases.They can be used, but read this without fail before you use a brass shotgun case.

Word of caution about balloon head cases

Shotgun buffers are supposedly designed to be compressed through a shotgun choke and not raise pressures. That being said consider where in the pressure cycle the buffer is being compressed- at the muzzle. So if buffers raise pressure it would be in an area of low pressure to start with. In the Cartridge the buffer would be compressed and forced out in the area of high pressure. A spike there could be critical.

Now I know Wright and others here are talking about using fillers in bottlenecks, but none of them have the radical constriction I am working with in the 577/450 Martini. They don't call it the Fat boy for nothing. But even the constriction from the ssmaller 500 body to 45 neck must be reconciled. You are still trying to move a large mass under pressure through a smaller hole.

I have used a disc of tissue paper between powder and fibers like dacron and kapok. I think for range ammo I could dispense with it. But for hunting ammo that is going travel in rough conditions, I would us the tissue.

The puflon and powder was a compressed load and I wasn't worried about migration.

I think Marraki is using the wads in a straight walled or long tapered case. Marraki please correct me if I am wrong....

Please understand, I see a difference in a filler and a wad. Wads are a single solid item and go in straight walled case to to take up space or used in the neck of bottle necked cases for the same purpose. Fillers are for taking up space and are not a solid item.

I would not want .45 cal solid felt wad to drop down in the body of my fat boy case. It would be just fine under the bullet in the neck.

I will look for those load post over on Gunboards and post them later. There are several of them written over a period of a year or two. There may be a couple of earlier ones over on British Militaria. The search function on that board is useless.



--------------------
DD, Ret.


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