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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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k80
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pre 64 holy grail ?
      #58718 - 13/06/06 11:44 AM

Is the pre 64 Model 70 the Holy grail of bolt
guns? Is the newer control feed Model 70
as good or better than the pre 64?

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Ken
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FrankMartinez
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #58820 - 14/06/06 04:09 PM

Take it another step and call it the Pre 64 in .375 HH takedown and I will agree it is a Holy Grail to be sought after.
Otherwise they are simply rifles to enjoy.
Frank

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500grains
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #58841 - 15/06/06 01:55 AM

The pre-64 M70 felt nice, but it suffered from 2 serious flaws:

1. Poor gas handling in the event of a ruptured case. Burning powder shot back through the rails into the shooter's eye.

2. Brittle receivers. Many cracked and were warranties by Winchester.

However, the workmanship on the newer CRF Win M70 is quite poor.

Therefore neither is the holy grail.

Instead, I would suggest that the holy grail of bolt rifles is :

(a) a Granite Mountain Arms magnum Mauser action finished by a best quality riflemaker

(b) a Karl Heinz Ritterbusch custom Mauser rifle,

(c) a Gottfried Prechtl custom Mauser rifle

(d) a Hartmann & Weiss custom Mauser rifle.

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NE450No2
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500grains]
      #58905 - 16/06/06 02:18 PM

MMMMM....... The Blaser R 93 just might be the Holy Grail.
Those of us that use it, are BELIVERS.

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500Nitro
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500grains]
      #58907 - 16/06/06 03:28 PM


500grains

I think you forgot one.

They also cracked / split the stocks
as they didn't have any recoil lugs.

500 Nitro

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AzGuy
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: NE450No2]
      #58908 - 16/06/06 03:31 PM

500 grains,

As long as we are going to get into religon, I BELIEVE that the Holy Grail should be available to ALL, without having to go into debt. The options you mention (all very desirable & worthy) are very expensive.

Most choices in life are compromises....and the current Model 70 maybe the most affordable best compromise available, with the Ruger & CZ models in 2nd & 3rd place.

NE450No2,

The Blasers are NICE.....but NO Holy Grail! Your combo of 300 Win/375 H&H is almost "ideal" , but it is only one gun and changing the barrels is NOT always an option. A very good compromise but NOT the Holy Grail .

--------------------
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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: AzGuy]
      #58986 - 18/06/06 11:03 AM

I think I answered my question today
when I handled a Colt Sauer Grand
African. Browning Safari, and pre-64
will be moving over soon to make way
for the Colts.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #58998 - 18/06/06 05:01 PM

So can I please ask how much you pay in the US for a new Colt Sauer Grand African in lets say, .375 H&H?

...... And what spec you get for the money? ie quarter rib etc?

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (18/06/06 05:02 PM)

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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59011 - 19/06/06 11:53 AM

1800 to 2500 US $ for a 458
I am not finding any 375s at
this time.

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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #59020 - 19/06/06 03:02 PM

I'm not a fan of the Sauer - but I guess the price isn't bad. - Certainly they're a lot more expensive in the UK and RSA.



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59044 - 20/06/06 10:14 AM

What about the Colt Sauer do you
find falt with?

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DPhillips
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #59058 - 20/06/06 01:38 PM

If it is like the old Colt Sauers:

1. It's a pushfeed

2. I just can't trust a rifle that has retracting locking lugs. Probably as smooth and slick as any rifle ever made, but still...

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500grains
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: AzGuy]
      #59075 - 21/06/06 01:10 AM

In reply to:

As long as we are going to get into religon, I BELIEVE that the Holy Grail should be available to ALL, without having to go into debt. The options you mention (all very desirable & worthy) are very expensive.



'Holy Grail' implies best of the best, top of the heap. It is not possible to get the best at an economy price.



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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500grains]
      #59084 - 21/06/06 06:30 AM

Without wanting to get into the pushfeed debate - I don't see anything wrong with them at all and those that don't like them are misinformed at best............

The reasons I don't like Sauer is that as a PH I have to work to the lowest common denominator and assume that not all rifle owners are perfect........ that stupid safety catch so close to the trigger means (TO ME) that sooner or later someone, somewhere will have an A/D. Add on the fact that the barrel is needlessly long and everything is far too shiny for African hunting and then factor in that bloody silly removeable magazine that so often gets dropped in the sand and won't go back in and I figure they're a real pretty rifle and a real accurate rifle -but not a good rifle by my criteria.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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500Nitro
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59087 - 21/06/06 07:22 AM


Shakari

A good summary of why people choose a rifle for it's looks
and not it's functionality / use in the field.

500 Nitro

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500grains
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500Nitro]
      #59089 - 21/06/06 10:01 AM

Well, I know PHs who have seen multiple Rem 700s and Mark V's bite the dust in the field, so the CRF thing seems to have something to it.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500grains]
      #59090 - 21/06/06 10:30 AM

Peter Paul Mauser certainly thought so!

Curl



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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: CptCurl]
      #59092 - 21/06/06 03:32 PM

Guys,

Let's try not to hijack this into a PF vs CRF debate. - We can start another thread for that. ...... and the original subject of this thread is still good.

I'm more than happy with my personal rifle - but if I were going to buy myself a real nice bolt action and money were not an issue at all, I'd probably go to Paul Roberts of Rigby in London - if money were an issue, I'd probably do what I've just done when I bought our new (404) company loaner - which is go to Sabi Rifles in Nelspruit.......esp with the exchange rate as it is at the moment. If the rand continues to fall, their prices will rise because they have to import materials.....but at the moment, prices haven't gone up but the rate has........it's a smaller investment, but bullets from SA will be the same deal right now.

Whatever rifle I bought, the ruling criteria would be style of finish for African hunting (non reflective) short barrel, correctly sited safety catch, good balance classic calibre, and overall build quality.

If I had an even bigger budget, I'd try to buy a certain Rigby double that was made for a particular old time BEA PH I know about and am in love with........... (The rifle, not the PH)

In all honesty, 500 grains and I rarely agree about much - but he's absolutely right when he says " 'Holy Grail' implies best of the best, top of the heap. It is not possible to get the best at an economy price. " - I'll add to that by saying, If you want quality, you have to pay for it - and everything about a rifle is a trade off in that regard. The .404 Jeffery I mentioned can be bought for around US$3750 and upwards depending on exact specification and stock choice etc........ I don't believe you'll get a really good build quality much below that price. - But hell, it'll last you a lifetime if you want it to.......

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (21/06/06 03:45 PM)

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allenday
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Re: pre 64 holy grail ? [Re: k80]
      #59103 - 21/06/06 11:43 PM

I think it's important to realize that most of these actions -- no matter if it's an old military Mauser, pre-64 Model 70, or latest-version Model 70 Classic -- shouldn't necessarily be evaluated for what they are in their factory-original form, specifically if you're going to have a custom rifle built.

For example, a great many high-quality military Mausers, such as the 1909 Argentine, are quite soft in their original form, and should be properly and scientifically rehardened (carburized) by a heat-treating specialist. And a good custom riflebuilder will see that this process is completed in the right manner, by the right metal lab. The action might start out "soft", but it'll end up "just right" before the rifle is completed, tested, and delivered to the client.

Likewise, some pre-64 Model 70s ARE too hard as they came from the factory, but a quality custom riflemaker will have the harness of the action tested, and if it's found to be too hard he'll have it annealed, then the action will be carefully heat-treated by the same sort of special heat-treating lab that recarburizes Mausers. The process will be different, but the end result will be the same. What started out as a problem ends up as a non-issue.

The Model 70 Classic, since its inception around 1990, DID vary widely in terms of quality. However, with possibly over 400,000 of these rifles built over a 15 year period, there's still plenty of them to go around, and an astute client or custom riflemaker can take his time, look around, and hand-select excellent specimens for customization. Then the action can be further reworked and remodeled into an incredibly precise foundation for a best quality rifle. What didn't start out as perfect, ends as very-nearly perfect, with no problems whatsoever that will get in the way of a lifetime of solid performance. Once again, problem solved.

If there are no glaring defects that preclude the use of a specific action, there is no quality Mauser or Model 70 that's any better or any worse than the man you hire to rework it and turn it into a rifle. That action is only as good as the riflemaker will allow it to be, pure and simple.

And in the same way, it's no better or no worse than your ability, as a client, to hire the right man to build your rifle.

AD



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500grains
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59114 - 22/06/06 03:30 AM

In reply to:

Originally posted by Shakari:

Let's try not to hijack this into a PF vs CRF debate. - We can start another thread for that.



But Steve, you brought it up in your own post when you said:

In reply to:

Originally posted by Shakari:

Without wanting to get into the pushfeed debate - I don't see anything wrong with them at all and those that don't like them are misinformed at best............



Generally, if you do not wish to talk about a topic, it is better to not bring it up.

Now back to the holy grail. Action type is crucial to whether it is indeed the holy grail. And gunsmithing is also crucial. Did you see the article in African Hunter last year about the new Rigby bolt gun that cracked its stock first shot, and the magazine box popped open with each shot? So while action type is critically important, so is having the right person build the rifle so that it is top quality in all respects.

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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500grains]
      #59117 - 22/06/06 04:47 AM

Actually, I didn't bring it up - someone else did. I was just trying to head it off at the pass.

'Fraid I didn't see the article about the Rigby, but was that with a proper Rigby from Paul Roberts in London or was it an American Rigby? - I'd be very suprised if it were an English Rigby....... As you say, so much depends on the particular gunsmith involved.......


--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (22/06/06 04:49 AM)

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500grains
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59124 - 22/06/06 07:24 AM

So what is your holy grail? Is it a Roberts Rigby and are they still made?

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bulldog563
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500grains]
      #59133 - 22/06/06 09:56 AM

For me it would have to be a Mauser built by one of the very best American Riflesmiths (Wiebe, Echols, Simillion, Heilmann, Miller, etc, etc) or a Hartmann & Weiss Mauser.

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500Nitro
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500grains]
      #59134 - 22/06/06 10:16 AM


500grains

Roberts no longer owns the Rigby name but he has use of the
W J Jeffrey name. But the gunsmithing is the same anyway.

The English know how to built good DG guns as do some
others.

500 Nitro

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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500Nitro]
      #59137 - 22/06/06 02:56 PM

Mmmmm, I don't know if I have a Holy Grail in B/A Rifles. Certainly I particularly like the work done by Paul Roberts - but as a left hooker, I need a L/H bolt and as far as that's concerned, I'm more than happy with the rifle I have. - I know it so well and it shoots so perfectly for me, it just feels right...... and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. As most forum members probably know it's a L/H Wea action rebuilt into a .500 Jeffery by Sabi Rilfes.

Personal taste in guns is a funny thing - and just that, very personal. My taste in rifles runs to typical British understatement. I don't like lots of engraving etc and I don't like long barrels or shiny finishes. Of the British doubles, my favourites are the (London) Rigby rifles and the Scottish round action double rifles......... and for some reason, I'm not particularly fond of H&H doubles. - Guess it's a case of preferring beauty over prettyness alone. - For me, there's a difference between the two. (English) Rigby rifles are beautiful and Hollands are just pretty. - Perhaps I should add to that, by saying that the Holland & Holland doubles are nice rifles. - nicely built etc..... but I have no desire to own one and I certainly wouldn't be prepared to pay the price to do so. - But an English Rigby is a different matter altogether.

A buddy of mine owns a Rigby double made way back when for the old time BEA PH Alan Black that is just to die for - it has unusually short barrels for the time and a L/H stock (although R/H trigger config) and that's the only rifle I can think of that I'd swop my .500 for...... and I'd do that in a heartbeat (So maybe that IS my Holy Grail) - But as it'd be miles out of my price range anyway, I don't get excited about it. - I don't know it's financial value, (and don't really care) but I do know it must be worth a shed load of money............. BUT, it's not the financial value I care about, it's the rifle itself and of course, it's unique history. I do have a photo of it, but as it's not mine, I don't feel I can post it.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (22/06/06 05:26 PM)

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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59177 - 23/06/06 09:31 AM

Shakari: Safety is of utmost importance.
The Colt Sauer's safety is on the receiver
tang. Unlike the new ones.
Yes it is "Weatherby" bright ;but that
can be tamed. I am still concerned
about the magazine and what to do
about it.


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Ken
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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #59191 - 23/06/06 03:44 PM

You don't mention what you want to do with the rifle - but if you plan to hunt Africa with it, I'd advise buying something else.

As I said earlier, I'm a great fan of Sabi Rifles in SA - they custom build made to measure rifles at a very competitive price and with the weakening exchange rate between the US$ and Rand, now is a very good time to order. The stock they have NOW was bought at a strong Rand price so they haven't put their prices up yet and you'll be paying with a stronger dollar. If you hanker for a custom rifle, now is the time to order one. - There are pics of two of their rifles over on the Mauser section of this forum.......

If you want an off the shelf rifle for a bit less money, there's plenty out there but I'd recommend something with a dull finish, a properly sited safety and a floor plate magazine.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/06/06 04:59 PM)

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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59377 - 28/06/06 12:23 PM

Shakari: I am suprised you have no kind words
for the Colt Sauer.

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Ken
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shakari
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #59380 - 28/06/06 01:58 PM

I did have kind words. - I said it was a well built and accurate rifle........ just not particularly good for Africa.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
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500grains
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59408 - 29/06/06 02:14 AM


In reply to:

I did have kind words. - I said it was a well built and accurate rifle........ just not particularly good for Africa.



As this is said by a person who trusts his life to a Mark V, and is clearly not a Mauser or CRF die-hard, perhaps heed should be taken of these words.

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Judson
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: shakari]
      #59475 - 30/06/06 03:20 PM


We can set you up with a great rifle that will fit you and shoot to under 1/2" at 100 yards. I can even set you up with a double if you would like. All that is needed from you is a great hunt of equal value and the paper work.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: Judson]
      #59754 - 09/07/06 11:26 AM

Not to worry 500 Grains it is "modified to
his specs"

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mlg
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #59769 - 10/07/06 08:31 AM

I had the pleasure of meeeting Paul Roberts in The Northern Territory a few weeks ago - he was hunting with the same outfitter as I.

He brought with him his personal 450 Rigby and 416 Rigby - both beautiful rifles.

As well as being beautiful rifles,The one thing that REALLY stood out with both those was how beuatifully balanced they were. Both pointed and came to the shoulder as good as a shotgun or double rifle.

Paul was very interesting to talk to and very knowledgeable on rifles and I enjoyed the time around the campfire in the evenings taliking to him.

I agree with Shakari - if I could afford one of Pauls Jeffreys I would buy one in a heartbeat.

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500Nitro
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: mlg]
      #59770 - 10/07/06 08:40 AM


mlg,

I think your comment highlights one of the things
the British got right when building guns - that of
balance and "pointability".

I also saw a few custom guns in the US at the shows
that were the same which was good to see.

500 Nitro

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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: 500Nitro]
      #59853 - 12/07/06 09:45 AM

This thread has given me several ideas.
I struck out to find someone to convert
the Colt to a floor plate or blind magazine.
I love the action of the Colt and wanted
it to work in 458. It is just not going to
work with a removable mag.
The Colt is a great rifle and I will still
have some just not as a DGR.
Like they say in the NFL "upon
further review" I am looking for a pre-64
Model 70 in 458. If you have one that
needs a good home please let me know.

Thanks

--------------------
Ken
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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #59906 - 13/07/06 09:46 AM

The Dakota looks promising as a
clone of the Model 70. What
experiance have you had with them?
I found a nice model 76. Is the Traveler
take down model a good choice?

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Ken
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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #60368 - 26/07/06 10:49 AM

Thanks for all the help. I have one on the
way. I will check it out and go form there.
Thanks


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Ken
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k80
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Re: pre 64 holy grail [Re: k80]
      #60549 - 30/07/06 10:43 AM

New one in the safe. I am starting a new
thread as to how to prepare this rifle. It is
not glassed, I need QD mounts and rings , etc.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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