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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER??
#57850 - 27/05/06 02:58 AM

The 450/400 is a great Double--4000 ftpnds energy, great SD, and penetration. The 375 H&H shooting solids penetrates well with a SD of .305 and is a decent Ele slayer but still is not a great Ele charge stopper--presumably secondary to less "knock out" punch or momentum.

If we try to objectively compare the 450/400 with the minimum 458 Wm 500 gr load that seems an Ele charge stopper-500 gr @ ~2100(4900 ftpnds of energy) by the Kinetic Pulse theory we get relative values of 45% more "whack" with the 458 load. The 375 computes out to 15% less "whack" than the 450/400.

Is this reality or just numbers? Who knows?

Is the 450/400 a bonafide Ele stopper?? No doubt it is a fine killer but can it stop an adrenalized charging Ele? What does past experience and records suggest?

What do members of this forum think? Would you face an Ele charge with it or hunt with something else?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (27/05/06 03:02 AM)

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kweber
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Reged: 21/11/05
Posts: 8
Loc: Hondo Tx

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57862 - 27/05/06 06:55 AM

have to admit that my sxs use on a charging ele would be my slapping butt-cheeks!

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57863 - 27/05/06 07:20 AM

Having fired exactly TWO follow-up shots on someone else's elephant being my total experience with shooting elephant, you can take what I say any way you want.

I do have some experience with the 450400NE, and with that in mind combined with what I know about what is needed to stop a full charge, I will say the 450/400NE with a good solid bullet, has as good chance as anything larger. Once a charge starts, in ernest, nothing short of a CNS hit will stop that charge for good. Any cartridge with enough pennetration to reach the brain will stop itThis is assuming the bullets hits the brain.
I would say the likelyhood of a bullet of less than a 577NE stopping it with a knock-out with a close shot near the brain to be doubtful. .
This is not to say the ele might not be turned, because I find just about any real solid slap the the ele's face will turn him. This gives the double man a chance at a side brain, or heart/lung shot as he turns.

This said, I don't think any chambering can be a guarintee in it'sself. I personally would not hesitate to hunt jumbo with a 450/400NE double. Now if you ask me what I would prefere if Elephant hunting is all I would do with a rifle, I think the answer would be a double rifle chambered for a 500NE!

All only opinion!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#57865 - 27/05/06 08:31 AM

Everything I've read and my limited experience too tells me that Mac is wrong about stopping a charge.

A 375H&H, 450/400, 450NE...are all equal in stopping a charge when the brain is hit. But stopping a charge or turning a charge without a CNS hit becomes more likely the larger the bullet in weight and diameter and the faster, within reason, that it is going.

Referenced in the 45/70 thread and available on african-hunter.com is the article by Ganyana reveiwing statistics of bad encounters with elephants by citizen hunters in Zim. The short version is that those with 375H&H's got killed or injured every time, those with 450NE class crtridges got injured less that 40% of the time and those with even larger cartridges, even less.

The 450/400 may be more than a 375H&H but it is a whole lot less than a 450NE class cartridge.

See Buzz Charlton's video, and count the number of times when he says, "...that elephant would have dropped if a 500 grain bullet had been used..." or something similar. He says it regarding his own shooting and failure to hit the CNS while turning a charge with his 416 Rigby. This is not coincidence, and the 450/400 is no 416 Rigby either.

JPK

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3599
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57873 - 27/05/06 11:02 AM

Well, I'm astounded at the fact that of all the BS and mis-use of the 'Taylor Knock-out' factor on these forums over the years, this is the ONE (and only!) application where it may actually be valid:
The frontal brain shot on elephant, with a bluff-nose solid.

.....yet no-one mentions it!

Taylor stated that "Any rifle which shows a KO value of not less than 50 can safely be relied upon to knock down an elephant IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, though it may not stun him. Over 60 values are necessary if he is to be stunned and not temporarily dazed."

This is as good a definition of a 'stopper' as you're ever going to get!

In the original Kynoch loadings, the 375 H&H turns up a KO of 40.1, the 450/400 is 48.6 or 49.1 depending on which cartridge, and the 450NE is 66.3.

The .458 WinMag with hoppdoc's suggested load is 68.7.

All theoretical I know, but its a bit hard to go out today and test this theory on a couple hundred ele. Taylor did!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DDouble
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Reged: 17/02/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Brazil

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#57885 - 27/05/06 10:26 PM

John Hunter said the charging elephant is the animal most likely to turn away when shot (and not hit in CNS). Lion, leopard, buffalo and rhino were more likely to press home a charge.

So elephant stoppers such as the double .500 John Hunter favored or the .577 many other el hunters used were chosen for a reason.

But the .375HH was used by many very succesfull ivory hunters who spend decades in the bush. And the .416R is considered an excelent elephant gun, used by Samaki Salmon who shot over 4000 elephants.

So my take is: the .400 is probably the best elephant (and buffalo) gun for our day and age, particularly because of low recoil and full penetration. The weight of the gun is also important as today we walk far more and shoot far less. Finaly, in our days, nobody hunts alone and there will be another gun on your side.

However, to hunt very thick Jesse, a PAC elephant that knows a lot about humans it may make sense to step up.

Dante

--------------------
Ddouble

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: JPK]
#57886 - 27/05/06 11:12 PM

In reply to:

Everything I've read and my limited experience too tells me that Mac is wrong about stopping a charge.

A 375H&H, 450/400, 450NE...are all equal in stopping a charge when the brain is hit. But stopping a charge or turning a charge without a CNS hit becomes more likely the larger the bullet in weight and diameter and the faster, within reason, that it is going.

I believe this is a paraphrase of my first paragraph

In reply to:

See Buzz Charlton's video, and count the number of times when he says, "...that elephant would have dropped if a 500 grain bullet had been used..." or something similar. He says it regarding his own shooting and failure to hit the CNS while turning a charge with his 416 Rigby. This is not coincidence, and the 450/400 is no 416 Rigby either.

This is exactly what i said If the CNS is hit it make no difference, if not then nothing short of a 577NE is sure to stop it with a close to the brain hit. Anf a 416 Rigby ain't no 577NE

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Anonymous
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Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#57896 - 28/05/06 05:13 AM

I feel better off with a .600 nitro for elephant this way your never stuck with to small of a gun should a critical moment arrise. As well if you hunt them close a .450/.400 is not going to do much at all unless you hit the brain, which under stress is very tough to do.

If your close and he decides to charge you, well that might hurt a little.

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DDouble
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Reged: 17/02/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Brazil

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: ]
#57898 - 28/05/06 07:53 AM

Again let me say that a lot of charges have been turned away with shots from a .375.

Some PHs and National Park guides have purposedly aimed high, to miss the the Brain, trying not to harm the animal. Such stunts have been succesful on many occasions, and is well documented.

The only problem is that if that stunt doesn't work, you will only have enought time to humbly yell "I was wrong"...

--------------------
Ddouble

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: DDouble]
#57961 - 29/05/06 11:50 PM

Mac,

You miss my point, entirely. A 450/400 does not, imo, have "as good chance as anything larger".

Yes, 450/400 is going to be the equal of any cartridge given an opportunity to make a successful brain shot - and assuming that is what is delivered. But the 450/400 isn't going to be as likely to stop a charge with a less than perfect shot or when a clean brain shot is not offered, by either turning it, or knocking the elephant down, or knocking it out as a 416, and that isn't going to be as likely as a 450 and that isn't going to be as likely as a 500...

I find support for my opinion in my own limited experience, but also in other sources, amoungst which are, Buzz's recent DVD, in Taylors writing, as well as his Knock Out Values table as noted by Marraki, Ndlovu, Mahohba.

If only the absolutes are options then one should hunt with the legal minimum or go to the other end of the spectrum and use a 700. But they aren't the only options and, imo, one can strike a far better balance between effectiveness when the chips are down, portability and recoil than a 450/400. Especially the typical 10 plus pounder. Imo, elephant stoppers start at 450/458, and go up and a 10 1/2 lb rifle in this range is the better balance.

JPK

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DDouble
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Reged: 17/02/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Brazil

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#58371 - 06/06/06 09:45 AM

Got the HuntingReport today with news that one hunter and one tracker were killed by elephants this month in separate incidents.

The tracker was killed by a bull elephant that smelled the hunting party from 150 yards (!) and came straight to them.

The PH sent everybody to the back, got the only gun available (the female client had a 30-06 with expanding bullets) and shot over the bull.

The bull stopped but charged again and was turned at 10 yards by the PH with the 30-06 and soft points.

Unfortunately the tracker was in the exact direction the bull turned to.

It seems John Hunter was right stating the elephant as the easier of the big 5 to turn away when shot at.

For that fact John Hunter listed the elephant as the least dangerous of the big 5! My personal feelings are that the statistics today would disagree with that assessement. Maybe the game has changed from those older times in Kenya.

Dante

--------------------
Ddouble

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: DDouble]
#58373 - 06/06/06 10:37 AM

Imo although the 450/400 is a good Elephant caliber it is not as good as say 470NE or 500NE for stoping a charge.
Imo a PH that hunts Ele often is best armed with the latter.
I am a sports hunter that requires a more precise first shot and a scope is often required and although I can use my 470 well it will be replaced by a lighter 450/400J with a detachable scope for more flexibility, ie cats and Hyena on twilight and small game.
ozhunter

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: ozhunter]
#60754 - 03/08/06 03:04 PM

I have taken 5 elephants.
3 at less than 6 yards or less.
4 were shot with my 450 No2, one at <5 yards, my closest, with my 9,3x74R.

I also own a 450/400 3 1/4" double.

I bought the 450 No2 and the 450/400 on the same day.
The plan was for my wife to use the 400 on her first trip to Africa [and I would use it here in the US until then

].

If I had bought and hunted the 400 first I might have bought a second 400 for my wife.

I have stated many times and I believe that the 450/400 is the best double for the modern hunter.

If you read all of Pondoro Taylor's work you should see the 450/400 was his favorite calibre.

I used to want a 577 or even a 600. However after using my 450 No2, and shooting 3 different 500 Nitros, I realized the 450 No2 has plenty of power and for me controlable recoil.

Too much power, with its greater recoil can be a bad thing.

For a PH, a double in 500,577,600 where you only shoot at game comming at you at 10 yards or closer, well I can see it.
However for a sport hunter who may be called upon to make a longer shot, or pass on the trophy.... Well less recoil may be called for.

I have shot an elephant at 120 yards and a giraffe at 188 yards with my 450 No2, and a caribou at 150 with the 400.

For all round use a 450/400 is the top choice IMHO.

I would not be afraid to face the charge of any animal with a 450/400.

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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: NE450No2]
#60765 - 03/08/06 08:11 PM

I thought I knew a few things about big game. After reading NE450No2´s post, I´m sure I didn´t

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Dutch44
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Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri

Re: 450/400- ??AN ELEPHANT STOPPER?? [Re: Preacher]
#60769 - 03/08/06 11:48 PM

I don't think it was Noah's call on that one.

Dutch

Hot Lead...Hot Steel...Hot Damn!

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