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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Lang 450-400 3 14"
      #57627 - 23/05/06 07:34 AM

I am seriously considering the Lang 450-400 3.25" on the Champlin site.

(EDIT: fixed the link. Should work now)

http://champlinarms.com/gundetail.cfm?id=2301





I have requested more photos which George will be sending me in the next day or so.

What does everyone honestly think of the rifle? I think it is beautiful but have nowhere near the experience and knowledge of others on this forum so would appreciate any info, thoughts and/or advice you may have for me.

Thanks in advance




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Edited by bulldog563 (03/06/06 12:30 PM)

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57632 - 23/05/06 08:51 AM

It's a stunning rifle, and one of the highest grade Webley A & Ws I've seen. This rifle MAY have been finished by Lang, from a proven barreled action bought in "in the white", which was not the usual arrangement with these. That may explain the unusual embellishment. I've traced one other Lang that was definitely done that way. Keep in mind that, when this rifle was built, Lang was owned by T. W. & Henry Webley.

The last really nice boxlock .400 George had for sale was another Webley A & W - a William Evans Deluxe that he had a couple of years ago. He was asking $19500 for it and it was gone quickly. This gun is archived in their online museum. It wasn't as high grade as this Lang, and had neither ejectors, nor intercepting sears. The Evans had probably not been redone, and George says the Lang is very nicely redone. That will account for some difference in price, but if the redo is top quality, not much.

Why don't you ask J. J. about it? He doesn't work for George, and I've listened to him savage guns that George had for sale more than once. Also, George is easy to deal with. If you decide you don't like it, send it back. He won't give you any grief.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500grains
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #57633 - 23/05/06 09:02 AM

Depending on who did the renovation work, the gun may have lost collector appeal if that is of any interest to you. But if you want a vintage British gun to take hunting,this looks like a good candidate expecially of George will give it to on a 7 day inspection with shooting rights and a box of ammo.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57636 - 23/05/06 09:38 AM

I think it has a lot of eye appeal. I'll be the first to say that I am always highly skeptical of a re-done gun. What did it look like before??? This rifle is re-stocked. Thus, the original stock was a basket case. If the stock was that bad, what has the rifle been through? George is hesitant in his rating of the barrels. Good barrels are important to me. It's impossible to judge the condition of the engraving and metal finishes from the photos.

From the photos it's impossible to say more, and much of what I have said is of the devil's advocate approach. That is exactly the approach I try to take when considering a purchase. If you let your emotions run wild you will overlook or rationalize a lot of bad. If you shop with a jaundiced eye you will make a more studied decision. Then if you decide to buy you can let your emotions take over and enjoy your purchase.

Again, I think it has a lot of appeal, and I would be interested but for three things:

1. A certain Woodward .450/.400 3.25" in my gun safe;
2. A certain Webley actioned George Gibbs .450 NE in my gun safe; and
3. Poverty at present.

I love the carved fences. To see another Lang like it go to the Winter 2005 DGJ. There's a nice .577 BPE featured.

Get it in your hands, go out of your way to find fault, and if it passes this test, hold it near and dear to your heart. That's my creed.

Good luck, and keep us informed.

Curl



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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
      #57637 - 23/05/06 09:43 AM

Curl,

Do you know what page the Lang is on in Winter 05 DGJ?

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57638 - 23/05/06 10:01 AM

Page 77


Curl



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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57639 - 23/05/06 10:08 AM

Bulldog

The rifle looks great in the pictures but that does not necessarily tell the story.

For the money involved why not just hop over there and look at it. Talk to George and JJ. Shoot it with them and decide.

Where else would you spend that much money on the internet without looking at the item very carefully?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #57647 - 23/05/06 10:44 AM

400NE,

Thanks for the info. What would be the best way to contact JJ? How would I go about tracing this rifles provenance? I also found the Evans you were speaking about, beautiful gun.

500gr,

The fact that it has been refurbished doesn't really bother me much as Like you said... I want a vintage English DR to hunt with.

Curl,

The Lang 577 BPE is a Beauty. The fences are very similar. I know what you mean about letting your emotions run wild and not seeing fault in the gun. That is one of the reasons I posted this. As far as the bores, do you really think that because they are rated as excellent versus excellent + there will be a large difference?

Mickey,

I thought about that but with the inspection period and Champlin's reputation I figured it wouldn't be a risk to have it sent over. If I don't want it I am just out the shipping.

One question I did have is who to send this to for a look over. Whenever someone buys a rifle I always hear people say to send it over to Champlins for a check up. In this case who would be best to send it to? Is this necesary because it comes from Champlins(I assume yes)?

Any other info greatly appreciated.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57655 - 23/05/06 01:55 PM

Bulldog:

Just call J. J. on the phone, and ask him to give the Lang a quick once over and let you know what he thinks. I doubt he's even glanced at it yet. If he likes it, have him do a complete evaluation.

From my own experience with them, and that of others in deals that I've been privvy to, I'd say your take on Champlin is accurate. I prefer buying from them so that I don't have to worry. When I deal with others I'm paranoid.

Still, if you feel the need to have an evaluation done elsewhere, have them send it down to Kirk Merrington in Kerrville. He's a British gunmaker, formerly with Churchill's. He's primarily a shotgun guy, but is, in my opinion, competent to do an evaluation of a British DR, including evaluating the quality of the redo.

As far as researching it, get in touch with Ken Duglan at Atkin, Grant & Lang. If I remember what Cyril Adams (the fellow who sold AGL to Duglan) told me correctly, the records that survive are the ledgers as opposed to the day books. Historical data is still available though. Don't expect Lang's records to show the source of a bought in gun. The records of the London makers usually don't. I got lucky with the gun I mentioned, in that the records show the gun to have been completed 27 years after the date of proof. It didn't lay around Webley for that long.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57670 - 24/05/06 12:04 AM

I'd second 400's recomendation to talk to JJ about it. I've called him a about a rifle or two for sale on Champlain's site and he had some surprising things to say about the rifles I've asked about. Needless to say after the conversation I was no longer interested in those particular rifles...

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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
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akrange
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Reged: 20/12/05
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Loc: Michigan, United States
Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57700 - 24/05/06 10:56 AM

All,
Ok,Who's holding Her tonight..
AK

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: akrange]
      #57738 - 25/05/06 05:28 AM

Spoke with JJ today. He gave the rifle a quick once over and said there was some pitting on the outside of the left barrel but not much. He also said the redo looks good and the gun appears to be mechanically sound.

What does he do for the detailed examination?

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57744 - 25/05/06 07:29 AM

It's a thorough, full disassembly inspection, checking for lots of things. He'll slug the bores (very important with all of these, not just the .450/.400s). He'll shoot it also.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #57750 - 25/05/06 10:39 AM

Do you guys think that having JJ go through the rifle thoroughly is good enough or should I send it to a third party as well to have it checked out? I know you said that JJ doesn't work for George but doesn't he still have a connection with Champlins?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #57751 - 25/05/06 11:34 AM

That's your decision. I'm most comfortable with J. J., no matter who is selling the rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #58158 - 02/06/06 05:56 AM

Bulldog,

I have delt with George and JJ for some time and would recommend them without reservation. George backs up his guns and that is a lot to say today. JJ can fix most anything and WILL give his honest often brutal feedback if asked. BTW there has been a lot of play on that rifle so if it hasn't sold and you are still interested you might want to follow up.

CFA

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CFA]
      #58162 - 02/06/06 08:04 AM

Here are some more pictures;

Would be interested to hear what you guys think.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #58165 - 02/06/06 08:27 AM

It's kick-ass in the pics. How does it look in person?

If you like it, get it.

He who hesitates is lost.

Curl



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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
      #58166 - 02/06/06 09:09 AM

Jeez! What a beauty! Extended top strap! This rates as double gun porn!

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Rusty
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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
      #58168 - 02/06/06 09:30 AM

Bulldog,

Let me put it to you this way, if I didn't have a Lang 400/360 that may be a bit more original but not as nice I would have already bought it.

CFA

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #58169 - 02/06/06 09:36 AM

Bulldog:

It's always hard to tell from pictures, but I have to agree with Curl. Absolutely kick ass. From here, the only place left to go is to get it into your hands. If it is as good as it looks.....

These last pictures help. George said he was pretty sure the it was redone in England. The restock looks like it - at least the checkering and comb profile appear correct - which means they probably aren't the work of an American.

For a comparison, go over to the Photos and Archive page and look at Curl's Gibbs .450. That rifle is an A & W C 1st, Webley's top grade, Best Quality boxlock double rifle. This Lang is also an A & W C 1st. The Webley number on the Gibbs is 11139 and that of the Lang is 11458 (1905 vs 1906). Study the differences between the two. Note the carved trefoil fences and the Baker extended top strap on the Lang. Special rifle.

A friend of mine called George yesterday about this rifle, and George said he had a deal working on it.
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #58173 - 02/06/06 10:13 AM

The re-stock looks like it was meant to be there. I might eat those words if I saw it in person, but the pics present well.

I recommend you make the best deal you can, and have the rifle shipped on a proper inspection period. You should know in 30 minutes from opening the box whether it's yours or not. If it doesn't make the grade, ship it back. You are only out $100 or so in transport. That's cheaper than going to a gun show to look at one.

If you sit with your thumb up your ass, it's gone. That's for sure. I've been there and done that more times than I'd like to admit.

Hell, it looks good enough that I might call George tomorrow on my own account!!!

Go for it. All you have to lose is $100 in shipping. If that worries you, you are playing the wrong game.

IMHO,
Curl



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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
      #58197 - 02/06/06 05:01 PM

Yes, I think its a beauty as well.

400NE:

The deal George has working on it is me. He said he would hold it for me until he sent me the other pictures which he did yesterday. I am going to have JJ go through it. As long as it passes the test I will take it on inspection and if I like it as much as I think I will it should have a new home.

Thanks for all the help guys and I will keep you informed.

Anyone else feel free to comment.

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #58198 - 02/06/06 05:11 PM

What is a fair inspection period to ask for if I want to have it reviewed by a third party as well?

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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
      #58200 - 02/06/06 05:27 PM

Inspection is usually a 3 day event. If you want have it sent directly to the person you'd like to have inspect it.

Let me tell you about George Caswell.

As I have told folks and George on serveral occasions, I don't know if you can get a "Deal" from George. However when you do buy a rifle from George you will know the exact condition of the rifle. There are no "let's just get this POS out the door deals".
George is in the double rifle business to make money and he makes a good living at it. He's a haggler. He has to be. There is usually some wiggle room.

As several members of this forum and AR can attest to personally, George and JJ stand behind the products they sell.

JJ, in my opine is above reproach in matters concerning a double rifle. If there ever was a patron saint of double rifle gunsmiths, JJ Parodeau is that person.

There is never any BS from JJ, just the truth of the matter and solutions! He is the only gunsmith I will let work on my double rifle. Time spent spent at Champlin Firearms in Enid, is a rare opportunity to watch a Craftsman at work!

Just my opine.



--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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