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bulldog563
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Loc: California

Lang 450-400 3 14"
#57627 - 23/05/06 07:34 AM

I am seriously considering the Lang 450-400 3.25" on the Champlin site.

(EDIT: fixed the link. Should work now)

http://champlinarms.com/gundetail.cfm?id=2301

I have requested more photos which George will be sending me in the next day or so.

What does everyone honestly think of the rifle? I think it is beautiful but have nowhere near the experience and knowledge of others on this forum so would appreciate any info, thoughts and/or advice you may have for me.

Thanks in advance

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Edited by bulldog563 (03/06/06 12:30 PM)

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57632 - 23/05/06 08:51 AM

It's a stunning rifle, and one of the highest grade Webley A & Ws I've seen. This rifle MAY have been finished by Lang, from a proven barreled action bought in "in the white", which was not the usual arrangement with these. That may explain the unusual embellishment. I've traced one other Lang that was definitely done that way. Keep in mind that, when this rifle was built, Lang was owned by T. W. & Henry Webley.

The last really nice boxlock .400 George had for sale was another Webley A & W - a William Evans Deluxe that he had a couple of years ago. He was asking $19500 for it and it was gone quickly. This gun is archived in their online museum. It wasn't as high grade as this Lang, and had neither ejectors, nor intercepting sears. The Evans had probably not been redone, and George says the Lang is very nicely redone. That will account for some difference in price, but if the redo is top quality, not much.

Why don't you ask J. J. about it? He doesn't work for George, and I've listened to him savage guns that George had for sale more than once. Also, George is easy to deal with. If you decide you don't like it, send it back. He won't give you any grief.
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500grains
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#57633 - 23/05/06 09:02 AM

Depending on who did the renovation work, the gun may have lost collector appeal if that is of any interest to you. But if you want a vintage British gun to take hunting,this looks like a good candidate expecially of George will give it to on a 7 day inspection with shooting rights and a box of ammo.

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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57636 - 23/05/06 09:38 AM

I think it has a lot of eye appeal. I'll be the first to say that I am always highly skeptical of a re-done gun. What did it look like before??? This rifle is re-stocked. Thus, the original stock was a basket case. If the stock was that bad, what has the rifle been through? George is hesitant in his rating of the barrels. Good barrels are important to me. It's impossible to judge the condition of the engraving and metal finishes from the photos.

From the photos it's impossible to say more, and much of what I have said is of the devil's advocate approach. That is exactly the approach I try to take when considering a purchase. If you let your emotions run wild you will overlook or rationalize a lot of bad. If you shop with a jaundiced eye you will make a more studied decision. Then if you decide to buy you can let your emotions take over and enjoy your purchase.

Again, I think it has a lot of appeal, and I would be interested but for three things:

1. A certain Woodward .450/.400 3.25" in my gun safe;
2. A certain Webley actioned George Gibbs .450 NE in my gun safe; and
3. Poverty at present.

I love the carved fences. To see another Lang like it go to the Winter 2005 DGJ. There's a nice .577 BPE featured.

Get it in your hands, go out of your way to find fault, and if it passes this test, hold it near and dear to your heart. That's my creed.

Good luck, and keep us informed.

Curl

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bulldog563
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Loc: California

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#57637 - 23/05/06 09:43 AM

Curl,

Do you know what page the Lang is on in Winter 05 DGJ?

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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57638 - 23/05/06 10:01 AM

Page 77

Curl

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mickey
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57639 - 23/05/06 10:08 AM

Bulldog

The rifle looks great in the pictures but that does not necessarily tell the story.

For the money involved why not just hop over there and look at it. Talk to George and JJ. Shoot it with them and decide.

Where else would you spend that much money on the internet without looking at the item very carefully?

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#57647 - 23/05/06 10:44 AM

400NE,

Thanks for the info. What would be the best way to contact JJ? How would I go about tracing this rifles provenance? I also found the Evans you were speaking about, beautiful gun.

500gr,

The fact that it has been refurbished doesn't really bother me much as Like you said... I want a vintage English DR to hunt with.

Curl,

The Lang 577 BPE is a Beauty. The fences are very similar. I know what you mean about letting your emotions run wild and not seeing fault in the gun. That is one of the reasons I posted this. As far as the bores, do you really think that because they are rated as excellent versus excellent + there will be a large difference?

Mickey,

I thought about that but with the inspection period and Champlin's reputation I figured it wouldn't be a risk to have it sent over. If I don't want it I am just out the shipping.

One question I did have is who to send this to for a look over. Whenever someone buys a rifle I always hear people say to send it over to Champlins for a check up. In this case who would be best to send it to? Is this necesary because it comes from Champlins(I assume yes)?

Any other info greatly appreciated.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57655 - 23/05/06 01:55 PM

Bulldog:

Just call J. J. on the phone, and ask him to give the Lang a quick once over and let you know what he thinks. I doubt he's even glanced at it yet. If he likes it, have him do a complete evaluation.

From my own experience with them, and that of others in deals that I've been privvy to, I'd say your take on Champlin is accurate. I prefer buying from them so that I don't have to worry. When I deal with others I'm paranoid.

Still, if you feel the need to have an evaluation done elsewhere, have them send it down to Kirk Merrington in Kerrville. He's a British gunmaker, formerly with Churchill's. He's primarily a shotgun guy, but is, in my opinion, competent to do an evaluation of a British DR, including evaluating the quality of the redo.

As far as researching it, get in touch with Ken Duglan at Atkin, Grant & Lang. If I remember what Cyril Adams (the fellow who sold AGL to Duglan) told me correctly, the records that survive are the ledgers as opposed to the day books. Historical data is still available though. Don't expect Lang's records to show the source of a bought in gun. The records of the London makers usually don't. I got lucky with the gun I mentioned, in that the records show the gun to have been completed 27 years after the date of proof. It didn't lay around Webley for that long.
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Chasseur
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57670 - 24/05/06 12:04 AM

I'd second 400's recomendation to talk to JJ about it. I've called him a about a rifle or two for sale on Champlain's site and he had some surprising things to say about the rifles I've asked about. Needless to say after the conversation I was no longer interested in those particular rifles...

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akrange
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57700 - 24/05/06 10:56 AM

All,
Ok,Who's holding Her tonight..
AK

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: akrange]
#57738 - 25/05/06 05:28 AM

Spoke with JJ today. He gave the rifle a quick once over and said there was some pitting on the outside of the left barrel but not much. He also said the redo looks good and the gun appears to be mechanically sound.

What does he do for the detailed examination?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57744 - 25/05/06 07:29 AM

It's a thorough, full disassembly inspection, checking for lots of things. He'll slug the bores (very important with all of these, not just the .450/.400s). He'll shoot it also.
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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#57750 - 25/05/06 10:39 AM

Do you guys think that having JJ go through the rifle thoroughly is good enough or should I send it to a third party as well to have it checked out? I know you said that JJ doesn't work for George but doesn't he still have a connection with Champlins?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#57751 - 25/05/06 11:34 AM

That's your decision. I'm most comfortable with J. J., no matter who is selling the rifle.
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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58158 - 02/06/06 05:56 AM

Bulldog,

I have delt with George and JJ for some time and would recommend them without reservation. George backs up his guns and that is a lot to say today. JJ can fix most anything and WILL give his honest often brutal feedback if asked. BTW there has been a lot of play on that rifle so if it hasn't sold and you are still interested you might want to follow up.

CFA

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bulldog563
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Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CFA]
#58162 - 02/06/06 08:04 AM

Here are some more pictures;

Would be interested to hear what you guys think.

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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58165 - 02/06/06 08:27 AM

It's kick-ass in the pics. How does it look in person?

If you like it, get it.

He who hesitates is lost.

Curl

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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58166 - 02/06/06 09:09 AM

Jeez! What a beauty! Extended top strap! This rates as double gun porn!

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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58168 - 02/06/06 09:30 AM

Bulldog,

Let me put it to you this way, if I didn't have a Lang 400/360 that may be a bit more original but not as nice I would have already bought it.

CFA

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58169 - 02/06/06 09:36 AM

Bulldog:

It's always hard to tell from pictures, but I have to agree with Curl. Absolutely kick ass. From here, the only place left to go is to get it into your hands. If it is as good as it looks.....

These last pictures help. George said he was pretty sure the it was redone in England. The restock looks like it - at least the checkering and comb profile appear correct - which means they probably aren't the work of an American.

For a comparison, go over to the Photos and Archive page and look at Curl's Gibbs .450. That rifle is an A & W C 1st, Webley's top grade, Best Quality boxlock double rifle. This Lang is also an A & W C 1st. The Webley number on the Gibbs is 11139 and that of the Lang is 11458 (1905 vs 1906). Study the differences between the two. Note the carved trefoil fences and the Baker extended top strap on the Lang. Special rifle.

A friend of mine called George yesterday about this rifle, and George said he had a deal working on it.
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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58173 - 02/06/06 10:13 AM

The re-stock looks like it was meant to be there. I might eat those words if I saw it in person, but the pics present well.

I recommend you make the best deal you can, and have the rifle shipped on a proper inspection period. You should know in 30 minutes from opening the box whether it's yours or not. If it doesn't make the grade, ship it back. You are only out $100 or so in transport. That's cheaper than going to a gun show to look at one.

If you sit with your thumb up your ass, it's gone. That's for sure. I've been there and done that more times than I'd like to admit.

Hell, it looks good enough that I might call George tomorrow on my own account!!!

Go for it. All you have to lose is $100 in shipping. If that worries you, you are playing the wrong game.

IMHO,
Curl

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bulldog563
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Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58197 - 02/06/06 05:01 PM

Yes, I think its a beauty as well.

400NE:

The deal George has working on it is me. He said he would hold it for me until he sent me the other pictures which he did yesterday. I am going to have JJ go through it. As long as it passes the test I will take it on inspection and if I like it as much as I think I will it should have a new home.

Thanks for all the help guys and I will keep you informed.

Anyone else feel free to comment.

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58198 - 02/06/06 05:11 PM

What is a fair inspection period to ask for if I want to have it reviewed by a third party as well?

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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58200 - 02/06/06 05:27 PM

Inspection is usually a 3 day event. If you want have it sent directly to the person you'd like to have inspect it.

Let me tell you about George Caswell.

As I have told folks and George on serveral occasions, I don't know if you can get a "Deal" from George. However when you do buy a rifle from George you will know the exact condition of the rifle. There are no "let's just get this POS out the door deals".
George is in the double rifle business to make money and he makes a good living at it. He's a haggler. He has to be. There is usually some wiggle room.

As several members of this forum and AR can attest to personally, George and JJ stand behind the products they sell.

JJ, in my opine is above reproach in matters concerning a double rifle. If there ever was a patron saint of double rifle gunsmiths, JJ Parodeau is that person.

There is never any BS from JJ, just the truth of the matter and solutions! He is the only gunsmith I will let work on my double rifle. Time spent spent at Champlin Firearms in Enid, is a rare opportunity to watch a Craftsman at work!

Just my opine.

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clark7781
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58204 - 02/06/06 11:30 PM

Bulldog:

If you want specifics about George standing behind one of his guns, just ask CFA about his other Holland that blew a barrel...

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
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clark7781
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: clark7781]
#58205 - 02/06/06 11:37 PM

Bulldog:

I just did a quick check on flights from SFO to Oklahoma City for next weekend. They run about $400 round trip (you can probably get a cheaper flight out of Oakland - San Jose has flights in the $280 range).

As most of the guys here have said, JJ is the point man for final decisions about the mechanical soundness of double rifles. For a $20K DR, I think a $300/$400 airline ticket is cheap - this way you can go to the shop, spend time with George and JJ, and probably shoot the rifle in their presence. Walking into a store with cash in hand and being able to negotiate a final price is A LOT better than doing so over the phone or via email - at least in my experience.
JMHO

Good luck with your decision.

--------------------
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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: clark7781]
#58206 - 03/06/06 12:08 AM

Bulldog:

In my experience, George is not at all rigid about the inspection period. Just talk to him about what you think you might need and I'm sure you'll have no trouble coming to an agreement on it. He's an easy guy to deal with.
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CFA
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Posts: 60
Loc: Austin, Texas

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58210 - 03/06/06 01:20 AM

Well said Rusty, as one of those that stood to lose 28K if not for George IMHO I don't think there is a better place to buy a double. As George say's you are not going to get a "steal" from him but you will get a fair price probably at the top end of the range.

Bulldog

I can understand you wanting to get a second opinion on the rifle and maybe you should, howerver IMO there isn't a better man to look at it than JJ and as I said before he will tell you the truth even if it means George will lose a sale. They are two separate companies working under the same roof.

CFA

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CFA]
#58233 - 03/06/06 11:44 AM

Thanks for all the help guys. I spoke with George today and we came to an agreement. JJ is going to give her the once over on monday. After I speak with him, assuming it passes, I will be sending a check to Oklahoma and that beautiful double will be taking a plane ride out to Sunny California.

I hope we like eachother. What should I name her?

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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58234 - 03/06/06 12:11 PM

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

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bulldog563
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Loc: California

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58235 - 03/06/06 12:28 PM

Thanks Curl, I am pretty excited.

I am trying to think what name would suit her. To me she seems like a brunette with nice, loooong legs.... Although I will have to shoot her to really get a feeling on what her name should be.

Anyone have any ideas?

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Rusty
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58238 - 03/06/06 12:45 PM

Congratulations on your beautiful new rifle!

As for naming her I must evoke the rules set forth by Perry Newman, one of the founding members of the DRSS.

He suggests that a big bore rifle be named for an ex girl friend or ex wife. They were most likely a thing of beauty, impossible to control and killed everything they touched!

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Rusty
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mickey
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58239 - 03/06/06 01:22 PM

In reply to:

He suggests that a big bore rifle be named for an ex girl friend or ex wife. They were most likely a thing of beauty, impossible to control and killed everything they touched!

I like that.

If I had any sense I would stop being involved with either.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: mickey]
#58240 - 03/06/06 02:43 PM

Bulldog:

Well done! I'll bet you're excited. I haven't seen a rifle that excited me the way that one did in years. I'm a boxlock guy (I wouldn't cross the room to look at a sidelock) and the Best Webley Screw-Grips are among the best boxlock DRs that have ever been made. And that one is one of the most unusual I've seen. It's the only one with the extended top strap that I can remember, and the trefoil fences are extremely rare. If I didn't already have a .400 that I won't part with, that rifle would never have made the web.

Now look, when J. J. calls with his evaluation, listen to what he says. If he finds a few minor problems, those can be taken care of on George's dime. If he finds something major, you need to be realistic about it. You've bought nothing in a poke here. Once you get it, if for some reason you don't like it, or just get cold feet, send it back. George won't mind. He can sell it in a heartbeat.

Keep us posted on what happens.
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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58241 - 03/06/06 02:53 PM

Bulldog,

Congratulations, I am glad you bought her before I finished talking myself into adding her to my collection.

Re her name, I called my first one "mistress". Whereas beautiful she was prone to blowing her stack. I now have a 20 year younger version and she is proving to be everything a young mistress should be including not complaining of headaches or giving me one.

CFA

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bulldog563
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Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CFA]
#58246 - 03/06/06 04:12 PM

Thanks for all the kind words.

I am a little confused as to how the inspection period works....

The way I understand it, the rifle has to be shipped to an FFL. In CA I would have to register it and then wait ten days to get it. So if I have a 7 day inspection, I wouldn't be able to shoot it until 3 days after my inspection period has ended

. Also if I dont end up keeping it (god forbid) then I dont want to have to go through the process of registering it.

How do you guys get around this?

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CptCurl
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58251 - 03/06/06 09:47 PM

Bulldog,

You'll know what to name her after you have had her a while.
With DR's sometimes the names aren't so flattering and can't be displayed in public.

Again, congratulations.
Curl

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bulldog563
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Loc: California

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58253 - 03/06/06 10:12 PM

Yeah, I am sure it will come to me when I can actually hold her.

What about the inspection period?

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58255 - 03/06/06 11:10 PM

Congratulations, truely beautiful rifle. I hope she is all she looks to be, and more.

Tell George your issue with the timing and the waiting period you all seem to have to deal with. He wants to sell the rifle, you want to buy it. Should be no problem to work around the ridiculous rules.

BTW, I can't get over the BS registration/waiting period you all apparently have to live with. I live in suburban DC in MD, AKA Liberal Land, We have instant check for long guns and a more deliberate state police check for handguns that ussually entail a week or two wait. I can't believe you all have it worse.

JPK

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mickey
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: JPK]
#58258 - 04/06/06 12:41 AM

Bulldog

No way you can pick it up in a contiguous
State? Federal Law allows that.

It is a beautiful rifle and I would want to see it ASAP.

Looks like a good call.

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NE450No2
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: mickey]
#58269 - 04/06/06 05:59 AM

Bulldog
I handled that rifle a couple of weeks ago at Champlins.
It is a very nice double.
I second all the nice things said about George and JJ.
I have delt with both of them quite a bit.

The 450/400 3 1/4" is a great calibre, I know I have one.
It is being fitted with a S&B 1-4 in claw mounts by JJ as we speak.

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: NE450No2]
#58426 - 07/06/06 09:58 AM

Reading CFA's thread regarding his Holland that blew has me a little nervous. What do you think the likelyhood of the barrels on this Lang being Struck Off and Re-Blacked? If so how can I determine if they are strong enough after being Struck again?

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58432 - 07/06/06 10:51 AM

Light the fuse and watch!

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58456 - 07/06/06 04:35 PM

400NE,

You mentined that that the Webley number on the Lang is 11458. How do you know this? I didn't see it anywhere, the only number I saw was 14206 which I assumed to be the Lang Serial number. I also saw you dated this rifle to 1906. That would place it 2 years earlier then CFA's Holland that blew a barrel. Do you think this is something to be concerned about? How can I tell if the barrels have been struck again during the redo? Are there any special things I should ask JJ to do when he does the evaluation due to its age, the fact that it has been redone and problems with Pre WW1 DR's blowing up?

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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58513 - 08/06/06 02:29 PM

Bulldog

From what I was able to find out after mine blew the problems arose from 450 and up there were not many problems below 500/450 ie 450/400. If anything can be seen JJ will find it and unless there is something very unusual I doubt you will have any problems. Just because a barrel has been struck during the refinishing process does not automatically mean there is a problem. Back in the day of big time safaris many wealthy hunters sent their doubles back to be "cleaned up" after their safaris.

CFA

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CFA]
#58551 - 09/06/06 09:39 AM

Thanks for your response.... I wasn't particulary worried about it being restruck... Just worried that too much metal might have been struck off.

Good to hear that you didn't find many problems with the DR's smaller then 450-400.

Did you ever determine exactly what happened with your rifle that blew?

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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58556 - 09/06/06 10:46 AM

The problems were mainly with 500/450 and above, your 450/400 is in the catagory of not many problems.

The best we could come up with was that we simply had metal failure. The rifle was not overloaded and there was no indication of a pre existing problem. You just need to deal with reputable dealors like George that will stand behind his guns.

CFA

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58577 - 10/06/06 02:35 AM

Bulldog:

Keep in mind that I have not personally handled this gun. The Lang number is 14206. George called me to discuss the Webley number, which he gave as 11458 and said it was on the left side of the fore-end loop. Were it not there, he wouldn't have called me about this gun. I double checked the location with him because it's the earliest gun I've heard of with the Webley number in that location. The earlier guns have the number on the short rib, like Curl's Gibbs. The later guns like mine have it on the left side of the loop. The numbers on the loop are stamped hard up against the barrels. Unless you know it's there when you go to look, you won't see it.

As represented, this gun has been redone, probably in England, including re-blacking. That means the barrels have been struck-off. I discussed Fred's Holland accident at some length with Ross Seyfried. He was adamant that such problems have been confined to .450 and above. He clearly stated that he has never heard of such a problem with anything .450/.400 down.
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58605 - 10/06/06 07:31 PM

Thanks for the information, good to hear.

Sent off the check yesterday. Should have the Lang in the next couple weeks.

Who makes/sells the best 450-400 3.25" components (brass, dies, etc)?

Is there a book or resource that I could use to learn about Joseph Lang & Son?

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Edited by bulldog563 (11/06/06 06:28 PM)

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CFA
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58658 - 12/06/06 01:56 AM

Safari Press has "Atkin, Grant and Lang", nice book with a lot of history. IMO Bell made the best brass, unfortunately they quit making rifle brass. But www.buffaloarms.com bought what Bell (Mast Technology) had left and has most NE brass if they havn't sold out of that caliber.

CFA

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CFA]
#58666 - 12/06/06 08:35 AM

Will check out the book.

Buffalo Arms doesn't have any 450-400 3 1/4" brass (only 3"). Where else should I look?

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58667 - 12/06/06 09:22 AM

I think this page at MidwayUSA might have what you want. One of them is .450/.400 “Thin Rim” which I didn’t see in The Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions. That one is on sale and in stock, so I hope you can use it.

.450/.400 at MidwayUSA

Here it is at Graf & Sons. It’s out of stock, but something to watch. The price at Grafs includes shipping.

.450/.400 at Grafs

I don’t know much about double rifles, so I’m not sure these cases are what you need.

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58670 - 12/06/06 10:04 AM

Huntingtons has .450/.400 3 1/4" Jamison. It's worth a try. As an alternative, get Fred Huntington to order in Horneber. If you have to use one of the others, try the Bertram. I know guys that have had good luck with it in this caliber. Avoid the A-Square.
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58671 - 12/06/06 10:08 AM

400NE,

So I take it you think as far as quality the list from best to worst would be;

1. Bell
2. Jamison
3. Horneber
4. Bertram
5. A-Square

Is this accurate?

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58676 - 12/06/06 11:12 AM

I've never used the Jamison. Huntingtons sent some of the first batches of it back. Since they have it in stock now, I presume they think the early problems with it have been resolved. Since it is available, I'd try it. If that doesn't work, go with Horneber.

Bertram and A-Square are strictly last ditch. Sometimes they're better than nothing, sometimes not.
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58677 - 12/06/06 11:59 AM

The Jamison .500NE I got from Huntington is just fine. Hopefully their .450/.400 3.25" is just as good.

Curl

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58683 - 12/06/06 06:04 PM

HORNEBER brass is what I have been told to order for my up and coming 450/400JEFF.
ozhunter

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: ozhunter]
#58710 - 13/06/06 07:50 AM

For the brass... Couldn't I buy the Bell 450 NE brass that Huntingtons has and resize it for the 450-400 3.25"?

Spoke with JJ today about the Lang. He said the bores are nice with no cordite burn or throat erosion and the internals look good as well.

He also told me the gun slugged .408 (he said it varied between .407 and .409). Is this variance normal? Is there anything special I need to know to accomodate this variance?

Which bullets would you guys suggest I use in this rifle? I assume it will be Woodleigh but thought I should ask anyway.

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Edited by bulldog563 (13/06/06 08:09 AM)

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58712 - 13/06/06 10:18 AM

Welcome to the world of .408 450/400s.

Hawks or Woodleighs. I shoot Woodleighs .408s.
If you use Hawks you will need to reduce your powder load a few grains. With mine I reduce from 65 grains of RL-15 to 62 grains both with Dacron filler. The Hawks are softer and seal better.

Bulldog, I know you are excited! I was, too!
Now, the toughest thing to do is to, relax and let this deal work it'self out! JJ will not let you get stuck with a POS!

Nothing worse than the "Bound Tos". Worse than the "Cain't Help its"!

Patience young Patiwan! Take some time to enjoy this!

I look forward to seeing your double at one of our DRSS get togethers!

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58723 - 13/06/06 12:27 PM

Congrats on your rifle. It sure looks like a keeper.
As for bullets, the Woodleigh .408 will work just fine.
Accurate and damned nice killers. At least they were in
mine.
Yes, you can size down the .450-3 1/4 but a real PIA. I
did it, ended up having to buy a reamer when the necks
ended up too thick after sizing. Look around and find
some formed cases. It will be worth the trouble. If you
get the rifle and you're not all set, PM me. I'll loan
you the cases, dies etc. you need till you are up and
running. You can't be that far away.
Good luck
Raff

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58725 - 13/06/06 12:49 PM

Bulldog:

Bores that are "nice with no cordite burn or throat erosion" are hard to find in pre-war Nitros these days. Cordite tracks don't hurt anything, but most rifles have them. Sounds nice. Having listened to J. J. 's critique of several pre-war British rifles lately, if he didn't find something to bitch about, it must be pretty good.

Yeah, some variance is normal. Woodleigh .408s should be fine. That's what I use in mine. Standard dies will work fine for either bullet diameter, but you'll need an expander ball that is appropriate for the .408s. My 3 1/4" dies came with one for .411. Personally, I never use an expander with double rifle dies anyway (I never crimp either), but that's too different for most guys to get their heads around. With this cartridge, I would strongly suggest that you not go the elcheapo route with the dies. I'd suggest RCBS. Avoid CH4D.

If the .450 Bell brass is thin rim (.040", keep in mind that Bell also made .060" thick rim .450 basic) then yeah, you can form .450/.400 3 1/4" from it. I don't think I'd go to the trouble without trying the formed Jamison first though. Horneber will be OK, but, barring luck, will be a pain to get.

As for bullets, I use Woodleighs and Hawks. Do your load development with Woodleigh softs until you've got a final load for them. Then reduce a few grains and work back up with solids, until you have a load that puts softs and solids together. After that, you have no need to, and should not, shoot solids except for hunting. Then you can move on to the Hawks for a pig and deer bullet. Don't pull the trigger on a Hawk without reducing the Woodleigh load 10%, then work back up. Hawks can get squirrelly fast in some rifles. Don't shoot handloads without a chronograph until they're finalized.

As for the banded bullets you expressed an interest in....you've spent the money, you need to study it and decide. I understand the theory behind the banded mono designs just fine, and I don't buy it for a nanosecond, nor can I see any need for them whatsoever. I would never fire one in one of my double rifles.
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58727 - 13/06/06 01:09 PM

2Triggers,

Thank you for the very generous offer... I may take you up on it.

400NE,

Yeah, the only thing JJ said that was remotely negative was it had some minor pitting on the left barrel. Everything else passed muster so should be good to go.

Why don't you use an expander or crimp with DR ammo?

Rest assured this rifle will only be getting the best of everything once it comes to live with me. I will not be cheaping out on anything... let alone dies.

Which bullet (Woodleigh or Hawk) should be my range bullet (ie: easiest on the barrels)?

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58733 - 13/06/06 03:27 PM

Sure sounds like he gave it a good report.

As far as not crimping or using an expander - less aggravation and more consistent results. I got started doing it that way years ago when I was having problems with recoil "pull" with the round in the off barrel of a .400. Since I was having to decap by hand anyway (Berdan caps), I ditched the expander ball, stopped crimping and the problem went away. I've done it that way with all the DR ammo I load ever since. The idea is to create adequate neck tension, and the best way to do that is to get rid of the expander. Without adequate neck tension, crimping won't prevent recoil pull. WITH adequate tension, crimping isn't needed and is a pain in the ass anyway.

For general range use, I imagine the Hawks might wear the tubes a little less, but not much. I tried the .025" jacket 400 grain Hawks in my .400, but it didn't like 'em. I need to try some .035" jackets in it. My .400/.360 loves the .030" jacket round tips. Tony uses Hawks in his .450/.400 quite a bit and likes them.
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58756 - 13/06/06 09:45 PM

In reply to:

I was having problems with recoil "pull" with the round in the off barrel of a .400..............
I ditched the expander ball, stopped crimping and the problem went away.

400,
Yep, that's what will happen when you use an expander which is too large for the projectile diameter.
In this case you were seating .408" bullets into a neck which has been expanded for .411" bullets.
When you're talking neck tension, 3 thou too large is a hell of a lot.
No wonder you experienced problems.

It wasn't the fault of the expander though, and unless the dies had been ordered to suit .408" bullets, but were supplied with an expander for .411", nor was it the fault of the die maker.

Don't fear the expander.
It is just part of a tool (the die) which needs to be correct in its sizing diameter to be able to do its job properly.
It is there for a reason.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58772 - 14/06/06 02:54 AM

Alan:

My, that was rather presumptuous and condescending of you. The expander was for .408", not .411". I knew the rifle was .408" when I bought it and ordered the dies that way.

I warned that the concept was perhaps a bit complex for some to grasp. I was clearly correct in your case.
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58794 - 14/06/06 09:21 AM

In reply to:

My, that was rather presumptuous and condescending of you. The expander was for .408", not .411".

Hmmmm,
My condescending presumption was, in part, based on what you stated earlier in this thread which was..........

"but you'll need an expander ball that is appropriate for the .408s. My 3 1/4" dies came with one for .411."

In reply to:

The expander was for .408", not .411".

Sorry if this seems somewhat presumptuos but the expander could not have been the correct diameter for .408".
If it had been, you would not have had to remove it in order to achieve adequate neck tension.
If the expander was causing lack of neck tension and removing it cured the problem, the expander was oversize, period.

In reply to:

I warned that the concept was perhaps a bit complex for some to grasp. I was clearly correct in your case.

Thanks for that. Nice. Yeah. Hmmmmm.
Maybe a tad presumptuous and condescending on your part though don't you think?
400, you are often "clearly correct" in many things you say regarding double rifles.
However you are not the only person on the planet to have experience reloading cartridges for doubles and to use FL dies with the expander removed for one reason or another.

Edited by 4seventy (14/06/06 03:49 PM)

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58801 - 14/06/06 12:59 PM

4seventy
400 Nitro is not "Tony".

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: NE450No2]
#58819 - 14/06/06 03:45 PM

In reply to:

4seventy
400 Nitro is not "Tony".

Oops, there I go being presumptuos again.
Sorry 'bout that 450No2, I'll edit the post to correct it.

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58824 - 14/06/06 05:21 PM

Whew! Glad we got that settled! I mean, I know they have a strong resemblance to each other!

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58826 - 14/06/06 06:04 PM

Twins!

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bulldog563
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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58864 - 15/06/06 08:45 AM

Who makes the best 450-400 3.25" dies? Should I get custom dies or just special order RCBS from Midway.

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58865 - 15/06/06 08:56 AM

I got mine from Huntington. RCBS can't be beat.

Curl

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: CptCurl]
#58874 - 15/06/06 02:27 PM

Curl,
RCBS make great dies for sure and I've always had a good run with them in the common chamberings.
I wish I could say the same for my doubles though.
I have two sets of RCBS dies for doubles, one in .470 NE and the other in 400-350 NE.
The 470 set has the shoulder too far forward by a mile.
I believe they have corrected that on current sets though.
The 400-350 set is oversize in the neck sizing section and will not reduce the neck diameter enough.
You can ditch the expander or leave it in cause it doesn't make any difference as it doesn't ever come in contact with the case.

Many don't like CH dies but I have owned a set in 360 No2 and another set in 300 Savage which were both fine.

Does all this mean that I'm saying CH is good and RCBS is no good?
Definately not, but it does demonstrate that you could end up with good or bad in either or any brand.
I think RCBS is still the best option though.

I doubt that RCBS used to make two different FL dies in 450-400 3 1/4" for the two different bullet sizes of .408 and .411 though. (talking non-custom dies)
This may be different now but it is possible that they just did a .408" full length die and either did two different expander diameters or maybe just one "average" expander at about .407" or .408" actual diameter.
That would have worked for either the .408 or the .411 but would have left the .408 with minimum neck tension as 400 NE experienced.

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58879 - 15/06/06 05:15 PM

The CH dies I ordered for a 475 #2 Jeffery .488, came for a 475#2 .418. this after a long conversation with the owner about what I wanted. The shell holder for the 500 3 inch was so out of specs that I could not properly insert primers on any press or tool.

For me its Redding, Hornady or RCBS.

BobC has a set of custom dies for his 450/400 3 inch from Hornady that he is very happy with. Sent them two fired cases from each barrel.

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58892 - 16/06/06 08:26 AM

Yeah, there have been quite a few people who were not impressed with CH so I don't doubt there have been some problems there.

I also like Redding dies.
They don't look quite as nice as RCBS on the outside but they do work very well or have done for me anyway.
I like the large diameter thread on the decapping rod of Redding and CH.
It is a far better idea than the pissy little thread on the RCBS.

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#58944 - 17/06/06 06:41 PM

400, just out of interest, what was the actual diameter of the expander which caused the lack of neck tension?

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Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: 4seventy]
#58945 - 17/06/06 09:32 PM

Went to see her today and she is a beauty! Some slight pitting on the bbls, a few nicks here and there and one of the turnscrews had the head broken from being over torqued. Would it be possible to get a new head made for the turnscrew and how would I go about doing this? Is this something George should cover since it wasn't listed in the description or our correspondence?

Anyway, thank you to all for the help in making this dream a reality (and answering all of my silly questions).

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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Rusty
.333 member

Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58947 - 17/06/06 09:56 PM

Bulldog,
There are no silly questions! There are only silly people who do not ask questions!
JJ can replace the broken screw head.

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: bulldog563]
#58985 - 18/06/06 10:35 AM

Bulldog,
That is one sweet looking rifle.
You are a lucky man.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Lang 450-400 3 14" [Re: Rusty]
#58990 - 18/06/06 12:51 PM

That was a broken turnscrew blade not screw head.
I'm sure JJ could replace that, or you could have it done locally.
It was the very first thing that caught my eye as I opened the case too, I left it in it's place for a while until I'd gotten my eyes on the rest of the contents.

Those bores really are pretty.
Did you catch the light color of metal fouling on the lands?
Had George or JJ shot this rifle prior to shipping it out here to the west coast?

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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