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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots
      #56234 - 03/05/06 03:30 AM

Left: GS Custom 570 grain .510"

Right: Bridger 550 grain .510"



________________________

Left: New Woodleigh 570 grain .510"

Next 3: same bullet, recovered from elephant



All bullets fired from 500 nitro express.

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Charles_Helm
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Reged: 09/11/05
Posts: 337
Loc: Dallas, Texas
Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56241 - 03/05/06 04:22 AM

I appreciate the photos of recovered bullets.

Do you have a new favorite yet, or is it a toss up on the good flat-nosed solids?

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #56258 - 03/05/06 07:18 AM

I still like GS Custom the best for flat nose solids, although Bridger and North Fork are excellent choices as well. But Woodleighs work fine too, they just don't go quite as deep.

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Charles_Helm
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56259 - 03/05/06 07:27 AM

Do you have any issues shooting moly coated and uncoated bullets? I have seen suggestions that you should pick one and stick with it.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #56263 - 03/05/06 07:48 AM

I have had no difficulties at all when switching between moly and regular bullets, or moly and brass bullets, etc. And in big calibers like this, the cumulative effect of recoil stops my shootling long before fouling becomes a consideration.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56264 - 03/05/06 08:03 AM

Sir,

Fascinating review of bullet performance.

Any hearsay reports of the relative effect of these 2 different types of solids? Of course if both were CNS hits there would be no difference and the animal would collapse.

Any different estimate of relative peripheral tissue tissue damage for the flat vs rounded solids at autopsy or are they exactly similar except for distance traveled? It is interesting the flatheads penetrated deeper.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (03/05/06 08:07 AM)

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Charles_Helm
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Reged: 09/11/05
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56265 - 03/05/06 08:35 AM

In reply to:


I have had no difficulties at all when switching between moly and regular bullets, or moly and brass bullets, etc. And in big calibers like this, the cumulative effect of recoil stops my shootling long before fouling becomes a consideration.



Thanks.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: hoppdoc]
      #56288 - 03/05/06 01:38 PM

doc,

The flat nose solids definitely leave a larger wound channel and (with body shots) a better wound channel. One one elephant that I shot with a side brain shot using a Bridger FN solid, the bullet created so much fluid pressure within the elephant's skull that a section at the rear of the skull was blown out - about 2" x 4". It was quite amazing to see.

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JTOMLINSON
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56307 - 03/05/06 07:55 PM

Dan

Great pics

You mention that the flat nosed exhibited greater depth of penetration, do the flat nosed regulate at the same velocity as the Woodelighs and also have any of the latter in ever flattened or extruded the lead core when fired into elephant skull?

Thanks

JT

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hoppdoc
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: 500grains]
      #56330 - 04/05/06 12:47 AM

500

Thank you--

Your info on the solids is very informing!

I believe you probably have addressed a similar question previously in a prior thread but-
Any overt signifigant deviation of the bullet course or track of the flat vs round nose solids thru bone? What angle on the elephant would be the hardest for a solid to mantain a straight course to the brain? Thru the muscular trunk? Any flat nosed solid CNS shot failures reported due to deviation from the intended bullet track?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: hoppdoc]
      #56340 - 04/05/06 02:11 AM

JT,

I have found flat nose solids of the same weight regulate with the same powder charge as Woodleighs.

doc,

I have not observed any difference in straight line penetration of FN compared to RN solids, but that does not mean there is no difference.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56347 - 04/05/06 02:33 AM

This may be a silly question...but, how do you recover the bullets from the elephants brain? Chain saw? Axe? I mean thats a lot of bone and meat to go through.


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #56361 - 04/05/06 05:57 AM

Colorado,

Generally the bullets from a frontal brain shot are found in the neck. On a side brain shot I have not seen a bullet fail to exit.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56367 - 04/05/06 09:45 AM

What sort of tissue damage do you see actually on the brain its self. Is it just a hole or is there massive hydralic shock?

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500grains
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #56383 - 04/05/06 01:47 PM

More than a hole, but not like the blood-shot jello mess that you see when shooting a deer with a .270. In lung shots I find the difference in damage from a FN even more discernible because a RN just pushes a hole through, and the hole tends to close in on itself, but an FN will cause tears in the lungs up to 4 or 5 inches away from the bullet hole itself. And the FN leaves a large bullet hole because it cuts through flesh like a cookie cutter, while a RN tends to push flesh out of its way, particularly at the entrance and exit wounds.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: 500grains]
      #56390 - 04/05/06 03:24 PM

So then on DG do you prefer the FN or RN?

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500grains
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #56392 - 04/05/06 03:43 PM

Definitely FN:

1. Larger wound channel.

2. More blood loss/better blood trail.

3. Deeper penetration.

4. Better accuracy (in 3 rifles, and equivalent accuracy in 3 others).

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: 500grains]
      #56393 - 04/05/06 03:51 PM

Were can you get the Bridgers?

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ALF
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #56395 - 04/05/06 04:12 PM

500 Grains:

There is something you need to clarify for me?

You state that based on your observation the FN projectile makes a "better" wound cavity than the RN projectile and that the FN projectile penetrates deeper than the RN projectile.

On AR and on different occasion you then claim this is due to a Supercavitation bubble?

Based on the science of cavitation and cavitation regimes projectiles showing stable penetrating phenomena do so based on two principles.

One is due less drag, in part due to more favourable cavitation regimes, the other because of angle of attack stability ( shoulder stabilization).

Now for the asked clarification ?

Supercvitation or simply cavitation leads to reduced drag and that in turn leads to smaller temporary cavities ( temporary cavitation is directly drag related, the bigger the drag the bigger the cavity and vise versa) so that if we assume that supercvitation is in fact a fact in soft solids the FN projectile would have less drag, thus better penetration but the caveat is a smaller cavitation thus not better wound channels ?

So whilst a super cavitating or simply cavitating body penetrates better it does so at expense of drag and a smaller temporary wound channel
( not that temporary wound channel does any harm in soft solids )

So what causes your observed better wound channels,?

surely not better cavitation regimes ????

, could it not be that the FN has better angle of attack stability due to shoulder stabilization ? or alternately that the sharp cutting edges intuitively shows a cleaner more defined wound permanent wound channel. ( in reality though RN projectiles dont have the clean cut appearence of FN projectiles all tissue contacted by the leading edge of the projectile is in fact toast so that the cavities in reality are all the same when observed under the microscope )



Edited by ALF (04/05/06 04:15 PM)

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smicha6551
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56405 - 04/05/06 10:27 PM

Very impressive pictures, thank you. Do you have any contact info from Bridger bullets?

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500grains
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: smicha6551]
      #56413 - 05/05/06 12:46 AM

Availability of Bridger bullets can be spotty, but some are carried by www.custombrassandbullets.com.

Alf, I don't think shoulder stabilization has anything to do with wound channel size. The only thing that explains it is cavitation. In places where cavitation is not occuring (entering the hide and flesh, exiting the hide), the sharp edges of an FN bullet cut a larger and neater hole which bleeds out better.

As to whether to call it cavitation or supercavitation, I will leave vocabulary selection to you.

However, the idea that greater cavitation leads to a smaller wound channel is simply false, and I do not know why anyone would advance such a concept.

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ALF
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain shots [Re: 500grains]
      #56453 - 05/05/06 12:57 PM

the idea that greater cavitation leads to a smaller wound channel is simply false

Please reread my post:

There are two distinct wound channels, permanent and temporary.

Permanent channel is created by the direct terminal behaviour of the projectile, ie diameter, deformation, fragmentation, yaw, and secondary projectile propagation. temporary wound channel is the direct result of drag and energy transfer to tissue resulting in volume displacement of tissue. The effects of temporary channel formation is tissue type dependent.

So if your projectile has little drag and penetrates deep then by defintion the temporary wound channel is smaller. You cannot challenge that ! I did not infer that the permanenet wound channel is smaller because of less drag.

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500grains
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: ALF]
      #56454 - 05/05/06 01:32 PM

I dispute the definition of permanent wound channel. I have seen permanent wound channels (i.e., flesh missing) that I could put my fist into. Yet the expanded bullet was nowhere that large. I saw a hole on the back of an elephant skull 4" x 2" or maybe bigger, maybe 6" wide. Again, the bullet was nowhere that large, but I could not exactly call that a temporary cavity.

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NE450No2
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Re: Solids recovered from elephant frontal brain s [Re: 500grains]
      #56458 - 05/05/06 02:03 PM

I have seen many "permanent" wound channels larger than bullet diameter.
If the bullet hits bone, a blood filled heart or the liver the "permanent" wound channel will be much larger than bullet diameter.

I once shot a deer, a whitetail doe, with a 264 Winchester Mag. with a 100 gr Sierra Spz. The bullet hit the deer right behind the shoulder. It "blew " the deer in half.
The "wound channel" was bigger than my head.
Looked pretty "permanent" to me.

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