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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES
      #55828 - 26/04/06 11:15 PM

This will probably provoke some derogotary comments but I believe that had the second World War not commenced when it did, the germans would have taken over from the big british gunmakers in the production and sale of double rifles. They were cheaper and very very attractive hunting arms. Prior to responding take some time to search the web or physically viewing some of the guns made in the 1930/40s. Absolutley magnificent in presentaion, high relief engraving the norm rather than the order, high tolerances etc. Cartridges produced were usually duplicated mm to inch such as 10.75 x 68 to .425Westley Richards and there are several others. Not always copies of current english cartridges, sometimes the other way around.
No, I am not of german origin, yes, I have owned several british doubles and unfortunately only fired/borrowed some beautiful german doubles and owned a few drillings and combination guns and single shots. (wish i still had them)
cheers

--------------------
Love to hunt!

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Taylor416]
      #55857 - 27/04/06 06:00 AM

If the Germans were ever to catch up to the British it would have happened long before WWII. A great many German makers built double rifles in those days. You have to remember that driven game shooting has always been more common there than in Britain. I've handled a great many of the pre-war German double rifles over the years - dozens of names - Merkel, FW Heym, Simson, Bock, Sauer, Geyger, Schwimy, Foerster, etc. Some of the workmanship was to a very high standard, but style was usually heavily Teutonic. Yes, some of the engraving is incredible, but so is some of the British.

Like the British, the Germans largely held to their own specific "formula" for their sxs double rifles, and still do. They've always favored very slender actions. Since most of their double rifles were intended for the driven game of western and central Europe, most were medium bores, and the slender profile worked OK for these. However, the heavy caliber rifles had to have very little profile to the barrels to get the weight up to a reasonable level, resulting in a finished rifle that swung like a post. I've encountered a few refreshing exceptions along the way, but they're rare. The British used larger actions and more barrel profile, which put more weight between the hands and improved handling dramatically. I believe that this is partly why the British dominated the large bore double rifle market for the duration.

I remember the first large bore German DR I ever handled - a Merkel boxlock .500/.465 from the '30s. I hadn't owned a double rifle yet then, and was looking at everything with an open mind. The workmanship was high quality, and the Teutonic flavor unusually subdued. It was a lovely rifle in high condition. I remember describing it to a friend as the first "bull barreled" double rifle I had ever seen and would still describe it that way today. It handled like a brick.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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pwm
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Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Taylor416]
      #55859 - 27/04/06 06:07 AM

I am german( so much as possible) and think if you look at cartridges some of german developments like the 9,3x64 and the 10,75x68 are the best ever designed.
The british gunmakers build allways fine double rifles but the actions coming from the 19.century. There is nothing new under the sun and you cant invent the bicycle a second time but new ideas and new actions come fom Suhl in this time.
British gunmaker live from the work and the ideas of her fathers or build guns with mauser actions.
They never build a good repeating gun( enfield lovers please forgive me but nobody outside of the empire buy it) and they never build a real automatic gun.
British game guns are beatyful but this was the classic gun from the "golden age" and the brits becoming to rich and to full in the big empire.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: pwm]
      #55867 - 27/04/06 07:33 AM

Nothing can compare to a British double rifle. Nothing.
They are the finest example of a hunting rifle, made by man, on the Planet. Nothing else even comes close. Nothing.

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MauserRifle
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Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 153
Loc: U.S.A.
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #55892 - 27/04/06 01:49 PM

Maybe today is the day of the German Double Rifle?

How many DR's are made at this time by the British, Germans or any other country?

--------------------
Mauser Rifle

Everyday is a great day, some days are just better than others!

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: NE450No2]
      #55909 - 27/04/06 04:25 PM

NE450No2

The British gunmakers do make exceptional double rifles and they always had a great tradition to fall back on in doing this. That said, today, there are excellent German, Austrian, Italian etc manufacturers who make equally good gunsif you compare current production. But if you take the pre WW-2 years, the British did not have any competition at all. Sadly, many of the grand actions like the Woodward Automatic have been abandoned by the Brits though some others like the Facile Princeps and the Scottish Round are still being used to make double rifles.

MAny of the Italian guns - Famars and Piotti in particular - are unashamed copies of the British designs and probably even better made as are the fine Belgian guns from Lebeau Courally. The AUstrians also make fine double rifles, and they have been very active in experimenting with some traditional designs that the British have given up. One of the Winklers (Josef or Benedikt, I am not sure) made some 500 NE rifles on backlock actions as a design exercise and were able to bring the weight down to 8.5 lbs using Bohler Super Blitz steel. Just imagine that though, the recoil may have been punishing. They still impressed British authority Christopher Austyn who wrote about them and the guns sold for a fancy price at Sothebys some years ago.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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vigillinus
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #55912 - 27/04/06 06:02 PM

Germanand Austrian game scene engraving, especially when in relief, is usually quite awful and most of those guns would look a lot better plain.

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5280
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: vigillinus]
      #55918 - 27/04/06 09:13 PM

Yeah, here's a real nice example of best quality English engraving on a top name double rifle - Holland & Holland. In fact, it is featured in the H&H catalog. I've seen nothing in Germany, Austria, or Italy as tasteless.







Something Queen Eliz can really be proud of!

I'll take relief German engraving over this every day. Go figure!

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: CptCurl]
      #55919 - 27/04/06 10:07 PM

YOWSERS!! GAG!!-----

First H&H I have seen that desperately needs a redo.

I guess I would take it if it were given to me though
(of course!)!!
It may be tasteless "art" but it is still a great gun!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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smicha6551
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Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55920 - 27/04/06 10:51 PM

I'd agree on it being tasteless (and I really like Texas) though it's still impressive work. I can't remember the company, only that it is from Italy, but they have a line of bullino engraved guns with fairly tasteless nudes - I'm not a prude by any means but give me a break. I really like the deep relief German engraving - I guess there's something for everyone.

Here's a silly idea that I really like (on a bolt rifle) - the ball being shaped as a cat's head: http://www.mauser-usa.net/mauserrifle.jpg
And I thought I was the only person who'd want that.



Edited by smicha6551 (28/04/06 01:50 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5280
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Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: smicha6551]
      #55923 - 27/04/06 11:30 PM

I like good German deep-relief engraving.



But at the same time I like classic English scroll.



I also think the Italians can do superb work.



There's a lot of art out there that we can rejoice in.

Curl




--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ratel74
.275 member


Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 77
Loc: USA
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: CptCurl]
      #55930 - 28/04/06 02:28 AM

We work on alot of doubles and here is what we find. The current production guns be it Blaser, Heym, Krieghoff, Francotte, Chapuis all are great shooters. Not so much for the english guns unless great attention is paid to custom loading for the specific gun. Currently I have 2 real Rigby's that we are doing some minor work on. The first is a .303 re regulated sometime in the 70's. It is a wonderful shooter about 3" at 100 yds with both barrels. Out of the box the blaser 30 06 was a ragged hole for both barrel at 100 yds. The other gun is a .470 Sidelock Rigby, I must say this is the true essence of a double, but you are a minute of a turkey platter at 50 yds with Federal and Kynoch. As a control I took my Chapuis out and put 2 shots about an 1" apart on the same target. The Blaser shot a duplicate group to the Chapuis.
The best shooting British double I have ever shot was a .375 Flanged Royal Ejector built in the 60's. It was scoped as a driven boar rifle and would shoot ragged hole group at 100 yds. With sights at 50 R&L was no more than 1/2" apart. I prefer my Blasers and Kreighoffs still.

Aleko

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Ratel74]
      #55931 - 28/04/06 03:02 AM

Curl,

Regarding your comment about the Dallas and other guns being "tasteless",
if you were a gun maker and someone came in with £150,000 and said they
wanted "XYZ" built, I bet you wouldn't say no !

It is still tasteless though !!!

500 Nitro

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5280
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Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 500Nitro]
      #55932 - 28/04/06 03:05 AM

In reply to:

It is still tasteless though !!!




Money doesn't define beauty or style.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: CptCurl]
      #55934 - 28/04/06 03:59 AM

I hate to say it, but a lot of it "depends." Yes I've seen some horribly over done German and Austrian 'coo coo clockish" guns and rifles, but I've seen many guns I'd love to own (like Curly's clam shell 9.3 ). Also I've seen some "London Best" British guns and rifles turned out in the 1970s that were pretty rough (heard one story of a H&H 12 bore that was horribly regulated...).

I have a bias towards simple, elegant style so the English guns have a tendecy to win me over, but I have to admit in my little collection I only have Continental doubles so...

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (28/04/06 10:30 AM)

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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Chasseur]
      #55937 - 28/04/06 04:58 AM

Surely HARTMANN & WEISS builds as good a gun as the Brits do.

Wouldn't you all agree?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: new_guy]
      #55952 - 28/04/06 07:27 AM

I should have clarified in my above post that I was refering to British Doubles made prior to WW2.

The Companies that make new made double rifles, like Chapuis, Krieghoff, Merkel, Heym, and Blaser should be commended for being able to make a double that a common man can afford.
They are all very good hunting guns, and in the field will serve as well as anyother.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: new_guy]
      #55954 - 28/04/06 07:47 AM


new guy

Yes, I would agree, the HARTMANN & WEISS
guns are exceptional.

And that's coming from an Anglophile !!!

500 Nitro

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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Ratel74]
      #55961 - 28/04/06 10:03 AM

Quality-wise, how does Heym compare to Krieghoff?

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: CptCurl]
      #55963 - 28/04/06 10:14 AM



In reply to:

I've seen nothing in Germany, Austria, or Italy as tasteless.




Curl:

There was actual a thread on AR earlier this year talking about gun engraving.

Someone posted actual photos (the links currently do not work) of an Italian shotgun that was engraved with images right out of Hustler Magazine.

They were literally Gun Porn!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: clark7781]
      #55969 - 28/04/06 11:29 AM

I was trying to remember the maker.... It will come to me eventually.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: California
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #55970 - 28/04/06 11:32 AM

333,
Personally I would much rather have a Heym then a Krieghoff.

About the Dallas engraving, I agree it is hideous but it does show that H&H is willing to make its customers happy, no matter how asinine their request may be.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: bulldog563]
      #55971 - 28/04/06 11:36 AM

Just remembered, the makers of the nude engraved guns were Ivo Fabbri and Luciano Bosis. I believe they were shotguns.

Fabbri does some excellent engraving and the nudes are well done.... just not my style personally, for a gun anyway.

Here are a few examples;

http://www.fabbri.it/Engraving%208SQP.htm

http://www.fabbri.it/Engraving%208GWP.htm

http://www.fabbri.it/Engraving%208SUW.htm

Here is the site if anyone is interested;

http://www.fabbri.it/



--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

Edited by bulldog563 (28/04/06 11:46 AM)

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3539
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: clark7781]
      #55979 - 28/04/06 01:25 PM

Hey Clark, you better have a word with your local news-agent mate.
They're obviously sending you the Iranian edition of Hustler!



Tony Galazan has gone much further than this, if the photos in the
early issues of 'Petersen's Shotguns' magazine are anything to go by!


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39571
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Marrakai]
      #55985 - 28/04/06 03:25 PM

Never been one to miss some tasteless smut or very tasteful art in some cases, I think I will start a thread on the DR Archive forum for erotic engraving. Hey it generates visitors!

Imagine having your beautiful girlfriend immortalised on the sideplates of your shotgun or double rifle. You never or probably. be allowed to bring it out for shoots. I wonder if the engraver ensists on personal sittings.

Also for other types of engraving. Will start a new thread where the gentlemen here and educate me and others on the different types of engraving.

Then it can be perserved for posterity on the Archive forum.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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