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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3521
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: NitroX]
      #55997 - 28/04/06 08:04 PM

John: Was that perv.. er, pers.. um, preserved for posterity?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Marrakai]
      #56003 - 28/04/06 11:19 PM

In reply to:

Hey Clark, you better have a word with your local news-agent mate.
They're obviously sending you the Iranian edition of Hustler!




Marrakai:

Let me see if I can track down the photos. You'll understand what I'm talking about when I get them.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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smicha6551
.275 member


Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: clark7781]
      #56015 - 29/04/06 01:38 AM

The Fabbri was the company I was thinking about. I think, but can't remember for sure if Galazan was the one who had sideplates featuring a Los Vegas theme that featured a sports car (Ferarri IIRC), dice, and what appeared to be a teenage girl unhappy at her chosen clothing-free career. The Fabbri guns are high art in comparison.

A deep relief scene with Diana would be nice - if a bit tame.

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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #56110 - 30/04/06 10:49 PM

So you don't think that World War One would have slowed opinions down with the rest of the world?

cheers

--------------------
Love to hunt!

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Safarischorsch
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: CptCurl]
      #56209 - 02/05/06 06:05 AM

Very nice, no doubt.

But you should visit the store of this gunmaker(austria).


http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_1.php?lang=en


I think you would think about your posting...

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39435
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Marrakai]
      #56213 - 02/05/06 11:45 PM

In reply to:

Poster: Marrakai
Subject: Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

John: Was that perv.. er, pers.. um, preserved for posterity?



Marrakai

I do believe I have all the mentioned erotic engraving graphics downloaded somewhere on any of three different PCs. Have to find them.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Taylor416]
      #56238 - 03/05/06 04:05 AM

big412:

The short answer to your question is no, opinion specific to the Germans due to the Great War had little to do with it. For the Germans to have bested the Brits in the DR game, they would have needed to do so before the type went into general decline. Like I said, long before WWII.

The double rifle as a type peaked before WWI. Post-WWI DR production began as a shadow of pre-war levels and declined from there through the '20s and '30s. Overall DR production since WWII is a drop in the bucket in comparison to that of the prewar period.

The post WWI decline in demand for DRs effected everyone and was due solely to economics. Double rifles were exclusively British and European in origin, and the market for them was almost exclusively so in those days. WWI left Britain and Europe bankrupt. The world-wide market crash in 1929 only extended the austerity.
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--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #56248 - 03/05/06 05:05 AM

because the Mauser 98 rifle become the dangerous game rifle more and more( this starts before WW 1 and go into our time) we can say that the germans roll over the market for big bore guns.

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Northman
.275 member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Troms, Norway, 72*North
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #56250 - 03/05/06 05:17 AM

did everybody notice the smallest doublerifle on the hoferwaffen site?

2,2 lb 17HMR or 22 Hornet?


Really neat little thing!

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Northman
.275 member


Reged: 06/09/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Troms, Norway, 72*North
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Northman]
      #56252 - 03/05/06 06:12 AM

You can see pictures here: http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_52s.php?id=14&lang=en

Press the picture to view more.. that colibri engraving is stunning!!

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: pwm]
      #56255 - 03/05/06 06:50 AM

pwm:

Nah. The magazine rifle didn't really get rolling until after WWI, and only then because it was cheap, not because it was better. That still holds true today. While the Mauser may have originated in Germany, it took the British to get the POS right.
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--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
The smallest double rifle... [Re: Northman]
      #56266 - 03/05/06 10:07 AM

I did.

That was the first thing I looked at on the site.
What a beauty!



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #56281 - 03/05/06 01:15 PM

Great site,
I was aware that there were Austrian companies that made all varieties of combination guns but have never seen too many doubles until recently.
I have an Austrian combination rifle with high relief engraving, Roe, Red deer etc in 16 gauge and .222, very well made rifle.


cheers

--------------------
Love to hunt!

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3521
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #56318 - 03/05/06 10:38 PM

400NE:
In reply to:

Post-WWI DR production began as a shadow of pre-war levels and declined from there


I don't think this is an accurate picture. Many Brit makers did slow down after the first war, but others increased production during the 'roaring twenties' and early thirties. Don't discount the importance of the continuing high demand from Indian royalty either.

Although dealing mainly with shot-guns, a check of the annual serial number ranges of a few of the main DR makers in Nigel Brown's 'British Gunmakers' will paint both sides of the picture. Sadly, many records are missing.

John Wilkes, for example, made +/- 100 guns per year 1900 to 1914, then made up to 500 guns in some years during the 20s, and around 1500 guns per year 1930 to 1932. Then back to about 40 per year during the 30s. Interesting stuff.

I don't know where to look for actual numbers made in Europe each year. Any suggestions?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Marrakai]
      #56345 - 04/05/06 02:29 AM

Yes, there were a few individual exceptions, but overall DR production was way down after WWI. Data from those who numbered DRs separately from shotguns is more enlightening.
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--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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nitro476
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Taylor416]
      #56373 - 04/05/06 11:31 AM

The German guns are ok but when you take them apart you will notice that the British guns are far better in he fit and finish department. The Italians are also guilty of not polishing the interior parts like the Brits do. There is always a decent market for re-selling British doubles and this cannot be said for the continent guns.

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: nitro476]
      #56376 - 04/05/06 12:05 PM

I can't agree with the statement just made. I have seen the guts of several pre-WW2 German doubles. Those I have seen were remarkable for their interior fit and finish. As good as any British I have seen, if not better.

At the same time, I have seen the guts of one German gun of lesser quality. It was about what one would expect. Nothing fantastic, but comparable to any "working" or field grade gun.

In sum, I don't think you can characterize the various "nationalities" with such a broad brush. A lot of Brits show inferior fit and finish, and that's a fact.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: CptCurl]
      #56407 - 04/05/06 10:49 PM

CptCurl,
how true, how true!!

cheers


--------------------
Love to hunt!

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pwm
.300 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 216
Loc: Banana Republik of Germany
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Taylor416]
      #56420 - 05/05/06 02:37 AM

any good gunsmith will make you a fantastic gun if you pay 150000$ like Holland&Holland get.
There exist some fine german big bore doubles, making for dealer like Manton or Jefferys and they are good as any british gun but that is not the question.
There are reason's: practical and econnomical is and was the double gun allways a gentlemans gun. The common hunter in africa and india was hunting with a inexpensive Martiny rifle till german know how give him the mauser rifle in his hands.
The brits build fine guns with mauser actions but this was allways for gentleman. Take a look into the 1925 Mantons price list. a original Mauser in 10,75x68 cost 220 ru. when a .416 Rigby cost 1275 ru. .
In action will be the rigby worth to pay the price of 6 mauser rifles. You will say of course yes but you pay old guns for a price you will never get it new made.
No ,the common hunter take the original mauser and was very happy with it. All the brits can do was only cosmetic. without the german actions ( like in booth world wars) they are nothing. Its not that I cant seen what for a fine cosmetic it was. But if you ask if the germans take over the market for big game rifles with time I have to say yes.

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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: Taylor416]
      #56422 - 05/05/06 03:21 AM

Well said Curly. I think you have to compare oranges to oranges. Its not really fair to compare a modern Merkel (which is a fine entry level working double) to vintage Purdey and then say the German one is inferior. If you compare working guns to working guns, or "best guns" to "best guns" then I don't think there is much of a difference.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: pwm]
      #56429 - 05/05/06 04:49 AM

pwm:

Yes, Manton sold a few double rifles that were bought in from Germany, mostly from FW Heym. These were not up to the quality standards of the British built rifles that Manton sold (handle one sometime) and the catalog prices reflected that. It's true that Jeffery was a retailer like Manton, but their DRs were British products, never German.

What the British did with the Mauser was a hell of a lot more than cosmetic.
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--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #56431 - 05/05/06 04:58 AM

Curl:

Some of the pre-war German doubles exhibit fine craftsmanship. On average though, attention to detail wasn't as good as the British. The Germans did a nice job with small and medium bore doubles, which is primarily what they built, but were flummoxed by the large bores. They've never been able to get the geometry right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #56438 - 05/05/06 05:47 AM

400,

Your point is good in that the Germans showed little interest in the large bores. My experience with German DR's is with small and medium bores.

Granted there was no German analog to Purdey, Holland & Holland, Boss, or Woodward. I think it is fair to say that they had no entrants in the high-end sidelock category at all.

However, even accepting the default at the very high end, I still think that class-for-class they display comparable workmanship. They made a lot of damn-fine boxlocks in small and medium bores.

Of course, this is all subjective. How do we compare them "class-for-class?" I can't wind the clock back to 1912 and identify two boxlocks of comparable price and then examine them for fit and finish. So what I assume to be "class-for-class" might not be so at all!

Still I think they are tarred with too broad a brush!

Best regards,
Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: CptCurl]
      #56526 - 06/05/06 03:21 PM

Cpt Curl,

You are absolutely right. The Germans did make some big bore double rifles - the names of Immanuel Meefert, Simson, J G Anschutz etc come to mind and Merkel made their Kersten U/O in some of the biggest bore chamberings of the time including the 600 Nitro. But they were totally eclipsed in numbers by the British, and, in quality as well, at the very top. Bread and butter guns from both countries were equally good, though, and there are some that you find every now and then on sale in India and abroad.

Cheers!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #56555 - 07/05/06 02:21 AM

Mehul-

On the topic of German big bore double rifles, check out this Schuler clamshell in 600 nitro.



It's currently for sale. This link should get you there.
http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=1033


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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