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333Jeffery
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Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Rimless Cartridges in Doubles?
      #55671 - 25/04/06 10:38 AM

What type of extractor or ejector is used for rimless cartridges in double rifles? Do the cartridges sometimes get stuck? Thanks for any info.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #55674 - 25/04/06 12:20 PM

Oh boy! Here we go again.

The purists say never go for rimless extraction, particularly if hunting dangerous game. There is at least one prior discussion of this topic. Usually the discussion is coupled with the issue of high-pressure cartridges (another no-no!).

Here's one prior thread in which both issues are discussed:

.375 H&H in a double rifle.


Heretics like me have gotten along quite well with rimless extraction, much to the consternation of others.


In reply to:

What type of extractor or ejector is used for rimless cartridges in double rifles?



Some time ago I shot photos of the dreaded rimless extractors at the request of our good friend, 4seventy. I still have the photos on my server. Here are the URL's:

http://www.rbsiii.com/rimless_extraction/Borovnik_1.jpg

http://www.rbsiii.com/rimless_extraction/Borovnik_2.jpg

http://www.rbsiii.com/rimless_extraction/Winkler_1.jpg

http://www.rbsiii.com/rimless_extraction/Winkler_2.jpg

http://www.rbsiii.com/rimless_extraction/Winkler_3.jpg


Seeing is believing. How's that for "Service with a Smile"?

Your faithful servant,
Curl



--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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333Jeffery
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: CptCurl]
      #55675 - 25/04/06 01:00 PM

Thanks very much for the pics! I've seen a number of doubles chambered for rimless cartridges, and always wondered exactly how they ejected/extracted the cases. I would guess that rebated-rim carts, like the .425WR, would be particularly awkward to eject.
As for dangerous game use, that's a non-issue to me. Nobody's going to face a wounded buffalo/lion/elephant/sabre-toothed marmoset/etc. with a double in .30-06, or other similar rounds. That's just common sense.
Thanks again.

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enid
.224 member


Reged: 02/11/05
Posts: 11
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #55677 - 25/04/06 01:33 PM

Can a .375H&H double rifle be rechambered to .375 Flanged? It is a bigger cartridge with lower pressure.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: enid]
      #55681 - 25/04/06 02:16 PM

No a 375H&H DR connot be rechambered to 375 Flanged Magnum.

Too bad.

JPK

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: JPK]
      #55684 - 25/04/06 02:48 PM

Why not?

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: bulldog563]
      #55686 - 25/04/06 02:59 PM

It's a smaller case than the rimless.

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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #55688 - 25/04/06 03:10 PM

Gentlemen,

Christopher Austyn in (I think) his book Classic Sporting rifles talks about Westley Richards making U/O double rifles in the rebated rim 425 W-R even with single triggers and testifies to their working perfectly. My personal library is still in India though anyone who has a copy may kindly post the relevant paragraphs here please.

Best wishes and good hunting!


--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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4seventy
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Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #55701 - 25/04/06 05:57 PM

Triple3Jeff,
Rimless cartridges in a double eh, hmmmm.
If you can believe what you read on the net regarding DG, they are in the same class or worse than O/U double rifles, single triggers on doubles, 458 Win magnums on anything, pushfeed boltguns and non Manchester Whitworths!!
To even think about them could result in an instant tossing, goring, biting, ripping and clawing!

Then of course there are some who think different!


Mehul,
I must track down a copy of that book.
I think you mentioned it some time back and I've been meaning to try and get a hold of a copy.
Thanks for the reminder.



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smicha6551
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Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: 4seventy]
      #55714 - 25/04/06 09:00 PM

Great, another book I have to buy.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1571571000/ref=sib_rdr_dp/102-8408696-4063369?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&no=283155&st=books&n=283155

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: smicha6551]
      #55719 - 25/04/06 11:18 PM

Rimless in a double is fine. I have a .375 H&H in a merkel with hundres of rounds shot. It is a good practice to back off the load a bit. Today's modern bullets work very well at lower velocities.

--------------------


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sbs470
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Reged: 15/04/04
Posts: 378
Loc: Sheffield Tasmania
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: bonanza]
      #55722 - 25/04/06 11:30 PM

Hi Guys
I have a westley Richards chambered in 300 savage.
Loading shooting and extraction have never been a a problem and if a buck gerbal should ever charge ,he won't stand a chance.He"ll have four holes in him in no time at all
Those 150 grn 30/30 soft points sure do make a mess of those little guys.
good shooting
sbs470

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: sbs470]
      #55735 - 26/04/06 01:18 AM

See my post on the thread on 375H&H in a DR. I have a Thys DR in 458wm. Extraction and ejection have been flawless for 500 rounds or so. No problems with dust in Africa or any operational problems of any sort.

JPK

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333Jeffery
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Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: JPK]
      #55854 - 27/04/06 05:09 AM

I've seen a nifty double from Westley Richards in .318WR that looks like it would be great fun to shoot. I just wondered why rimless doubles seem to have gotten a bad rap.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #55862 - 27/04/06 06:41 AM

Yes, with one exception, I would certainly describe the .318 Westley Richards doubles as "nifty". Nice handling, great geometry and, yeah, an absolute blast to shoot.

Long ago, a good friend had Champlin's send down a lovely best quality Westley Richards .318 Droplock on approval. They sent along several five round packs of late run Kynoch ammo to try it out with. As I recall, we had one or two complete failures to extract, and a couple that did extract failed to fully eject. It was a neat little rifle in wonderful condition, but what good is a double that won't reliably extract? Same guy had had another rimless Westley, a boxlock, that wouldn't extract either.

Other makers chambered a handful of doubles for the .318 Westley Richards FLANGED (known as the .322 Swift, this cartridge was identical to the .318 Westley Richards Rimless, except for the rim). There was an article in DGJ some years ago that featured a London Sporting Park hammer double (it was a Webley built PHV-2) in this caliber. This cartridge was available for the asking and Kynoch loaded it. I've never been able to understand why Westley didn't use it in their doubles instead of the rimless. Dumb.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: 4seventy]
      #56012 - 29/04/06 01:34 AM

Alan,

I have all three of Austyn's books and every one of them is worth reading. I need to go to India and ship my library here - hope to do it later this year.

If you do buy it, do post the paragraph here. If I remember right, he even describes John Taylor's views favouring single selective triggers on double rifles in one of his books though I am not sure which one. I've been away for almost three years now and Didn;t buy a second copy of the books because the ones I have in India are in perfect shape.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #56046 - 29/04/06 05:36 PM

Sutherland also hunted with a single trigger SXS. I believe it was a Richards. He says that he never had any problem with it whatsoever.

I have heard that the Westley Richards single trigger was the best mechanism, can anyone comment?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Rimless Cartridges in Doubles? [Re: bulldog563]
      #56052 - 29/04/06 09:02 PM

Westley's single trigger design was called the One Trigger. Sutherland used a pair of Westley .577s that were, IIRC, both fitted with the One Trigger.

Ross Seyfried did his first trophy ele hunt with a Westley Droplock .450 with patent One Trigger back in '79. Said the One Trigger was always perfectly reliable for him.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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