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hoppdoc
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??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!??
      #55661 - 25/04/06 08:35 AM

Questions pondered as follow up from a recent excellent Lion article posted--

You are on a lion hunt and shoot a big male Tanzanan Lion with your scoped 375-- You think you gut shot him and he has run off into the bush.You will be facing 500 pounds of teeth,claws, muscle, and sinew totally committed to kill you and rip you to shreds.

This stalk may take over an hour + at maximum alertness.You will need a stopping Double at point blank range that is not overly heavy and can be brought to bear instantly.

What handy Double rifle would you prefer?? Where would you try to shoot the Lion at short, short range--center of mass or somewhere in the CNS??

Thanks to all forum members for any input and info supplied!!



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500Nitro
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55663 - 25/04/06 08:39 AM

hopdoc

I'd go for a 450 Cal + Full Nitro Double rifle (ie NOT Nitro for Black)
with short 22 - 24 inch barrels.

Of the one's I own, I used my
- Westley Richards 500/465 or my
- Westley Richards 500 Nitro
- William Douglas 470 Nitro

It's not so much weight that is the problem but BALANCE.

As to where I'd shoot it, I'd of course always
go for a CNS/Killng shot but that is not always possible
so if you were slightly off target, by using a Big Bore
it will hopefully have enough other effect while you get
the 2nd shot in !!!

Just my HO.


500 Nitro

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Ratel74
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #55666 - 25/04/06 09:35 AM

I would shoot a fast handling .375 or a 9,3 *74R. My preference for many seasons was always the .375

Aleko

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500Nitro
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: Ratel74]
      #55670 - 25/04/06 09:44 AM


Ratel74

What happens if you miss the CNS ?

I don't think a 375 or 9.3 has the shock power
to disable a Lion ?

500 Nitro

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500grains
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #55678 - 25/04/06 01:52 PM

According to PH, Parks employee and writer on African hunting Ganyana says that a lion reacts well to a bit of velocity in his system, and that something in the 2500 fps range works well. That points to a 375 H&H.

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4seventy
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55700 - 25/04/06 05:36 PM

Never hunted lion but I think I have a rifle here that would work pretty well in that sort of situation.
Not saying that it would be the BEST but that it should work ok based on other experiences while using it.
Tell you all about it one day maybe.

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hoppdoc
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: 500grains]
      #55737 - 26/04/06 01:30 AM

If lions respond to more velocity and presumably more hydrostatic shock--

Just thinking--
How much velocity can you get from a 450/400 Double?
It should have more diameter than a 375 for more "whack" and still have more velocity/adequate penetration in lighter bullet weights for a complete energy dump from the bullet into the animal.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55740 - 26/04/06 02:38 AM

hoppdoc,

Remember, we don't soup up double rifle loads!

A double rifle is assembled to handle a specific bullet weight at a standard velocity for the cartridge. If you deviate significantly from those parameters you will lose regulation of your load.

Aside from proper regulation, if you overload for your double you will likely wind up with it coming off face, or worse.

Just my $0.02 worth.
Curl





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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Gibbs505
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55741 - 26/04/06 02:44 AM

I agree, 450/400 NE would be a classic double load for the big cat!!
375 H&H in a bolt action!

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hoppdoc
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: CptCurl]
      #55744 - 26/04/06 02:52 AM

I agree you can't hot rod a Double. It would affect the regulation and endanger the gun and the owner!!

What velocities would be expected from a ?350 gr
450/400? 2300-2400fps? A 350grain soft would seem to be a good candidate for a lion whacker.

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Ratel74
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55754 - 26/04/06 03:49 AM

I like the idea in a double for fast multiple hits, with the .375 that is possible, remember too the lion will be running at you! Hits count!


Aleko



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Safarischorsch
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: Ratel74]
      #55766 - 26/04/06 04:54 AM

Yes! A very nice Heym double 88b S with ejectors in 9,3x74R loaded with the


H-Mantel!!! bullet

would be my choice.

Or a benelli argo semi automatic rifle 9,3x62 loaded with H-Mantel, too.

But semi automatic rifles are forbidden in tanzania, i think.

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JTOMLINSON
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55775 - 26/04/06 06:26 AM

500 Grains is right

lions have a highly developed central nervous system and do not like the shock waves set up by a high velocity bullet, of course any of the large N.E calibres will kill one if correct bullet placement is exhibited, but they will kill quicker with higher velocity, again bullet placement is naturally vital.

John Taylor found that of all the calibres he used for lion the .416 Rigby, mainly a magazine round, provided excellent results with its combination of frontal area and velocity.

Karl Larsen however preferred a .600 N.E with large blue nosed soft bullets which he described as capable of splitting open a lions head, maybe a little poetic licence there but he did record the feat ofkill seven lions with 9 rounds in 2 minutes, not a high velocity round by any means but I imagine the incredibly large frontal area made up for lack of speed.

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LGF
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #55842 - 27/04/06 03:44 AM

Any of you guys ever seen a charging lion? Do you really think you get to choose your bullet placement??

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NE450No2
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: LGF]
      #55855 - 27/04/06 05:18 AM

I would feel comfortable with any of my doubles, the 9,3 the 450/400 or the 450 No2.
I would be "most happy" with the 450 No2.
480 Woodleigh Softs or 500 Swift A Frames should work just fine.

No matter the gun, I would try and shoot the lion in the brain.

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oupa
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #55877 - 27/04/06 11:32 AM

"What handy Double rifle would you prefer?? Where would you try to shoot the Lion at short, short range--center of mass or somewhere in the CNS??"

Let's be brutally honest.
What rifle? The one you have! You're not gonna get a choice in such a situation.

Where would you shoot? You'd damned well better shoot at the center of the biggest part you can see!

Brain? Yeah right, where is it? Remember lion have "flat" heads and that head is going to be bobbing like Linda Lovelace in high gear during a charge.

Head-on maybe the end of his (her?) nose. A bit high and you're on target (brain), a bit low and you're likely to drive on into the chest.

Bear in mind, you did say "short, short range" that's going to give you ONE shot if you're lucky. Then again, for my personal taste, anything under 50 yards would be short range for me where lion are concerned - I just don't like the buggers!

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JTOMLINSON
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: LGF]
      #55994 - 28/04/06 06:04 PM

LGF

Yes I for one have been in on a lion charge and buffalo, not something I wish to experience again, hit only in the rear end, by a .375 I recall, (not by me I hasten to add) the lion hit top gear in only 3 good legs in milli seconds and came steaming towards us, prpbably near to 30 mph by the time he fell with just 7 feet to go. Only as the lion closed to 10 yards did it raise its head, until that point it kept a low down and streamlined profile, hence a chest shot would have been near impossible.

The hit towards the rear haunch had no effect on him save only to piss him off big time, that is why I use the generic term well placed shot, of course you have no time to pick a clear spot nor do you have the luxury of time on your side, especially from under 30 yards, to do so will probably see you end up as lion shit over the course ofthe following days.

But then again to brown off at any part of the lion may well do you no good either, this lion had been hit too far back by the client and the shot did nothing to visibly slow him down.

Shots into the boiler works, brain or frontal chest cavity are needed here, however a lion with its hackles up and adrenalin pumping is a totally different proposition from an unwounded or otehrwise unalert lion, in the case of the latter a shot to the vital area with sufficient calibre, and in this intent I refer to .375 and bigger USUALLY works fairly quickly, I say usually as there will always be an exception, which with lions is what always makes the process a risky one, unless the shot is taken from high in the comparative safety of a machan, otherwise there is no normal for lions.

I think were the situation to arise again and I was to be faced with a charging lion a good reliable double in 450/400, pushing a woodleigh soft would be my choice, much larger a calibre may have the detrimental effect of too long a recovery time for the second barrel.

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hoppdoc
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #56002 - 28/04/06 11:12 PM

Sir,

May I ask where the lion was hit , how many times he was hit, and what rifle rounds were being shot at him if I may---

Do you recall the first shot that hit him (when attacking) that seemed to have any effect or was it a cumulative blow from many shots?

Sorry for the multiple questions but watching various video's of lion charges raises questions on the time/firepower needed to stop a charging adrenalized lion.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (28/04/06 11:13 PM)

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bulldog563
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #56010 - 29/04/06 01:16 AM

Where was the Lion Charge? What rifle were you using?

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JTOMLINSON
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #56025 - 29/04/06 04:29 AM

The initial and if I recall correctly wounding shot was quartering through the right flank just ahead of the rear hip, the lion moved slightly on the shot being taken hence a possible head on ( frontal chest?) shot entered just ahead of the right hip was lost.

A second shot at that time went over the top as the lion momentarily only went down, but just as quick picked itself up.

The rifles used by both client and PH were .375 H&H magazine rifles not doubles, this was back in 1991 before the popular resurgence of interest in doubles rifles.

Ammo used by both parties involved on the shooting was Winchester silvertip 300 grain soft nosed, a round well up to the job and one popular at that time.

On only 3 legs that thing hit top gear with no warning whatsoever and with bounds causing a scattering of the trackers, the PH taking the first shot irrespective of the client's wishes, this shot is believed to have hit the lower jaw and caused massive facial damage but it did not stop the animal, the second shot from the client went in the left nasal cavity just as the lion raised its head prior to a final leap now at a distance of only 10 yards or so, certainly no more. The shot took out the left lower brain and in all probability killed the lion on its feet but the momentum caused it to contiinue and dead in the air it landed between 5 -7 feet ahead of the PH and very unnerved client.

The time frame was incredibly short, quicker in fact than it will take to read this account, I seriously doubt that one person would have had time to fire 2 shots from a single magazine rifle during the charge itself.

looking back and having recounted the story a "few times" I consider a double 450/400 to be the ideal medicine in such a situation. Larger a calibre could well have been a disadvantage with recovery time, certainly over .470 would have slowed things down, possibly fatally so.

The lion took in total 3 shots, only 1 of which killed it, the one to the flank was unfortunate, clearly badly placed, but we all miss at times and sometimes for no obvious reason, I don't know what the sight picture was at the time the trigger was pulled. The second shot to the low jaw had no noticeable effect, save possibly to annoy him more.

Had the third shot not succeeded then a mauling of some sort would undoubteldy have ensued.

The incident took plac ein Zambia in the Mumbwa West GMA concession of the kafue N.P.

I suppose the moral here is to get things right first time, but from time to time for all of us the wheel sometimes falls off!!

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bulldog563
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #56044 - 29/04/06 05:29 PM

Where were you in this whole situation?

"The initial and if I recall correctly wounding shot was quartering through the right flank just ahead of the rear hip, the lion moved slightly on the shot being taken hence a possible head on ( frontal chest?) shot entered just ahead of the right hip was lost.

A second shot at that time went over the top as the lion momentarily only went down, but just as quick picked itself up.

The rifles used by both client and PH were .375 H&H magazine rifles not doubles, this was back in 1991 before the popular resurgence of interest in doubles rifles.

Ammo used by both parties involved on the shooting was Winchester silvertip 300 grain soft nosed, a round well up to the job and one popular at that time.

On only 3 legs that thing hit top gear with no warning whatsoever and with bounds causing a scattering of the trackers, the PH taking the first shot irrespective of the client's wishes, this shot is believed to have hit the lower jaw and caused massive facial damage but it did not stop the animal, the second shot from the client went in the left nasal cavity just as the lion raised its head prior to a final leap now at a distance of only 10 yards or so, certainly no more. The shot took out the left lower brain and in all probability killed the lion on its feet but the momentum caused it to contiinue and dead in the air it landed between 5 -7 feet ahead of the PH and very unnerved client.

The time frame was incredibly short, quicker in fact than it will take to read this account, I seriously doubt that one person would have had time to fire 2 shots from a single magazine rifle during the charge itself.

looking back and having recounted the story a "few times" I consider a double 450/400 to be the ideal medicine in such a situation. Larger a calibre could well have been a disadvantage with recovery time, certainly over .470 would have slowed things down, possibly fatally so.

The lion took in total 3 shots, only 1 of which killed it, the one to the flank was unfortunate, clearly badly placed, but we all miss at times and sometimes for no obvious reason, I don't know what the sight picture was at the time the trigger was pulled. The second shot to the low jaw had no noticeable effect, save possibly to annoy him more.

Had the third shot not succeeded then a mauling of some sort would undoubteldy have ensued.

The incident took plac ein Zambia in the Mumbwa West GMA concession of the kafue N.P.

I suppose the moral here is to get things right first time, but from time to time for all of us the wheel sometimes falls off!! "

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Join the National Rifle Association:
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JTOMLINSON
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: bulldog563]
      #56050 - 29/04/06 07:28 PM

bulldog

I was only an observer on that hunt which started out that morning at 0430 hours on the trail of a small batchelor herd of buff..

The lion was bumped quite by chance later in the day, although we had seen his spoor several times during the day, he was not initially planned as a trophy on that day, but you cannot give up chances when they crop up like that.

During the whole of the above incident from start to finish I was roughly 30 yards to the left rear of the client although candour compels me to admit that we ( one of the trackers who stayed back to keep an eye on me and a second observer) had a termite mount to take cover behind.

I carried only 8x 32 binos so could offer no help even had time and my knowing what to do permitted.

I was wrong on the number of shots, a finishing shot, shot number 4 was applied whilst he was down, quite where that shot was placed I have no knowledge

No video footage exists of the hunt, which is lamentable, but there are in existence a number of 35mm photos taken, and I think I may have one or two of the lion itself, I will try and locate any of the pics that I have and send them on.

My own hunt continued the next day with a leopard, but in all circumstances that hunt was an anti-climax, with noting to report, again using my own .375, this time with a Grizzly 300 grain bullet, made back in those days by a chap in the U.S named Joe Abrams, the bullets were essentially a copy of those made by Joe's friend Bill Steigers of bitteroot fame.

I still remeber my own PH at the time saying the afternoon i shot the leopard that bigcats that were unaware of the hunters presence were not USUALLY so difficult to kill, whether there is scientific basis for that or whether it was to act as a confidence booster for my own hunt I still wonder!

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hoppdoc
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: JTOMLINSON]
      #56056 - 29/04/06 10:04 PM

FASCINATING---

This is yet another charge I have read about /seen the video's and it would appear that stopping an adrenalized lion is really a chore!! Aside from a CNS hit I wonder if a center of mass hit can even stop or turn an attacking lion and prevent a mauling.

Seems like the video's show the lion totally closing with his attacker to render death/mauling despite any damage recieved.

Apparently either you hit the CNS and kaput the lion or someone gets badly mauled.

Does anyone know from others/experienced how often lions were turned with center of mass hits? I sure seems from analyzing charges that a 450/400 class Double shooting for the head/CNS at bad breath range would be excellent medicine to settle a TRUE LION CHARGE!!!



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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (29/04/06 10:11 PM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #56111 - 30/04/06 10:55 PM

Interesting ballistics on the 500/416 from another thread--

In addition to the 400 grainer, if a 350 grain Swift A frame would regulate at higher velocity that would seem to make a dandy lion "stopping gun" except for the gun weight being heavier than a 450/400 double and the recoil being similar to a 470 class Double.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: ??BEST LION STOPPING DOUBLE!!?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #56273 - 03/05/06 11:12 AM

I'm a little reluctant to reply to this thread, never haveing shot a lion sitting, standing, or charging! However, I've seen them in action on game at close range charges! The charge on another animal by a lion is only because he is hungry, while the charge on a hunter is out of pure anger. There is a difference, IMO!

Still, knowing what is involved with lion in full charge, and knowing what is involved with a rifle in such cases, has understandably given me some opinions as to what I would want in my hands when, and if it happens. Udoubtedly, in my case, it will be a double rifle, because that is what I use, in most cases, and in a close charge with a lion, a bolt rifle is little better than a single shot! The same, IMO, goes for a heavy recoiling double rifle, but better. My target would be center of mass. and one must remember, a lion is lower than a standing hunter, and the angle keeps changing as he gets closer. You will be lucky if you hit the COM, but if you do, the head is almost in the middle of that target, and so is most of the CNS.

I would want a 450/400NE 3" double rifle, or even a 375 H&H flanged double. The velocity of either of these rifles is quite sufficient for a big cat. Gregor Woods , who wrote the book RIFLES FOR AFRICA said in that book the a light double rifle chambered for 9.3X74R would be ideal for follow-up on wounded lion. I'm not sure I would go that far, but I certainly can't dispute it, when one considers Mr. woods has hunted Africa all his life! I think, however, I'll let Mr Woods carry the 9.3X74R double, and I'll back him with a 450/400NE 3" double if it's all the same with everyone!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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