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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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cchunter
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 744
Loc: Kinna, Sweden
470 NE - wh? why not? what else?
      #5513 - 08/12/03 09:51 PM

Please give me your opinion on the 470 NE as a double rifle caliber.

Alternative would be a .500/.416

What about Merkel or Krieghoff as guns?

--------------------


Christer Hansson

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: cchunter]
      #5516 - 08/12/03 10:20 PM

Christer

Looking at one seriously - ie acquisition?

I would go for the .500/.416 if a Krieghoff and double it up as a plains rifle and DG double. Might also see some use of Swedish Elch (Elk ?) perhaps. Certainly European boar.

I don't know if Merkel makes a .500/.416 but they do make nice base grade .470s and I considered one myself. At half the price of my Jeffrey, I could have gone on a cape buffalo safari for the difference. Almost.

Krieghoffs are a little more expensive than Merkels.

Personally I would seriously look at the Kreighoff and look at adding a .500 NE set of barrels one day, plus shotgun barrels. Living in Europe it shouldn't be too hard for you to send the rifle to the manufacturer if it is required to go back for fitting.

And a big guy like you really NEEDS a .500 NE! At least one day.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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cchunter
.375 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 744
Loc: Kinna, Sweden
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: NitroX]
      #5518 - 08/12/03 11:24 PM

John

I have been sure about the 500/416 for a long time now but start to have some doubts. I juste love my 375 so that is a perfect second and plainsgame rifle and also I have found a Merkel 140 in 470 to a good price.

It is a new one and it's about 5200 euro, is that ok???? at least it's ok in Sweden!

--------------------


Christer Hansson

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: cchunter]
      #5523 - 09/12/03 02:18 AM

Sounds pretty good price. At a guess well less than A$10,000.

Can you give it a shot or two? If so do it and snap it up if you like it.

When you are a rich man you can add a couple more doubles.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: cchunter]
      #5524 - 09/12/03 02:37 AM

Christer:

Do you intend to handload for it? If not, the .470 is the obvious choice.

Nothing wrong with the .500/.416. My hunting partner has one that is very accurate and penetration is good. He used it on a 42" buffalo up in the Dande in 2001 and got exits with a Woodleigh soft and several solids. For my use, the safety lets the Krieghoff out of consideration as a DG rifle - I just can't use it quickly. If you can get along with it, its a good choice. Avoid the Krieghoff factory (W. Romey) ammo though. The stuff I shot was erratic and roughly 20% of the cases split at the shoulder on the first shot. Handloads in Bell cases cured all problems.

As for the Merkel .470, yes, that would be a very good price on this side of the pond too. Sounds like it would be hard to get hurt on that one. The "Muckle" is now available in .500, btw. A friend of mine just bought one - $8,500 U.S. We will start load developement as soon as cases and bullets arrive.

Best regards, Christer.
---------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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cchunter
.375 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 744
Loc: Kinna, Sweden
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #5530 - 09/12/03 08:32 AM

Yes I will handload whatever I chose. Just now it is equal between these both calibers so I need something that makes one stand higher than the other...

--------------------


Christer Hansson

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: cchunter]
      #5531 - 09/12/03 10:19 AM

Christer and 400Nitro

I have not shot the 500/416 but have been told that the recoil is comparable to the 470 and the ballistics comparable to the 400 Jeffery. If that is true I think I would rather have the 470 for effectivness and stick to the 375 for plainsgame.

What is the gain from the 400 3" in the 500/416? The downside of the smaller bullet is easy to see with the 470.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: cchunter]
      #5532 - 09/12/03 10:22 AM

On the Merkel have a look at the rear sight.

Some I have seen here have a shallow V rear sight which is good. I saw one in Africa with a "notch" rear sight (what are really called - the small rectangle cut out for sighting?). It was bought by a young PH as a back-up right but while the rifle was nice enough, the sight was horrible and blocked most of what you want to see. Of course the sight could be replaced for some extra $$$.

Compared to my Jeffrey this rifle did not point well for me. When brought to the shoulder it always ended up a couple of feet to the right of where I wanted it. By happy chance my Jeffrey has never not been on point of aim. I think the Merkel had too short a stock which is easily corrected.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: mickey]
      #5534 - 09/12/03 11:44 AM

Mick:

I posted this over on the .500/.416 thread so I won't go into the detail again here but, having done load development with one and having chronographed several lots of factory ammo, yeah, the .500/.416 was a waste of development money. They should have spent the money promoting the introduction of an innovative new rifle chambered in the most popular caliber of the shinin' times - the .450/.400 3" Nitro Express. The .500/.416 offers 125 fps more velocity than the .400 (2250 vs 2125)with, for any practical purpose, the same bullet, but at the expense of two extra tons of pressure. It is 150 fps short of the Rigby. The added performance doesn't justify its existance. Still, it is a good cartridge with good component availability, and it is what is available in the new "affordable" doubles.

I've heard the statement that the .500/.416 kicks as hard as a .470 many times, too. I suppose perception of recoil varies considerably from person to person, but that statement is beyond the pale. Shooting from the bench, my hunting partner insists that my .450/.400 kicks harder than his .500/.416. I can't tell the difference. To my senses, the difference in recoil between the .500/.416 and the .470 in similar weight rifles is biblical.
------------------------------



--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: NitroX]
      #5535 - 09/12/03 12:43 PM

Christer:

Nitro is right, if you go with the Krieghoff or the Merkel, you had best budget for tearing off the sights and starting over. The Merkel comes with a flattop U-notch rear and a square post up front as does the Krieghoff in calibers up to .375. These are as bad as nitro describes. The larger caliber Krieghoffs come with a wide-vee rear with a white plastic insert and a large brass bead up front. These are too coarse for adequate precision at 50 yards, much less 100, and suffer badly from glare.

Christer, since the ballistics of the .500/.416 seem acceptable to you, and you intend to handload, why not get a nice second-hand English boxlock in .450/.400 for the same money? Or, for a bit more money (and .470 horsepower), a .450, .500/.450 or 450 No. 2? Better rifles and money better spent.
--------------------------


--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #5536 - 09/12/03 12:56 PM

In reply to:

Christer, since the ballistics of the .500/.416 seem acceptable to you, and you intend to handload, why not get a nice second-hand English boxlock in .450/.400 for the same money? Or, for a bit more money (and .470 horsepower), a .450, .500/.450 or 450 No. 2? Better rifles and money better spent.



Ah, a fellow traveler on the Road to Tradition.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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cchunter
.375 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 744
Loc: Kinna, Sweden
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: mickey]
      #5581 - 11/12/03 09:29 AM

Thanks for all replies, this has given me a lot to think of. One problem though is that it is quite hard to find double guns in Sweden that are bigger then 9,3x74 and I would really like to feel a gun I would buy for this money. However I will go to Los Angeles in february so I will ask some friends to look out for doubles there and see what they can find. Certainly it would be fun with some really big and classic caliber.....

--------------------


Christer Hansson

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: 470 NE - wh? why not? what else? [Re: cchunter]
      #5585 - 11/12/03 02:33 PM

cchunter
Like 400 Nitro I prefer a British Double. The 450/400 [3" or 3 1/4"] is an excellent calibre, as is the 450 3 1/4 or the 450 No2 [my favorite ].
Also in a new made double take a look at the Chapuis.

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