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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Getting close...
      #54670 - 13/04/06 04:50 AM

First off, thanks to *all of you* who have contributed anything to my search for information and advice on handling, loading for, and shooting my J&W Tolley express rifle.
I've learned a lot and this rifle has been a handful for me over the last year or so.




This target was printed this weekend. I only put two rounds through the rifle and really didn't plan on shooting it much as I wanted to work on my new Whitworth Express .458Win bolt rifle.

Gotta say though, I was very happy when I walked out to the fifty yard board and saw what my old rifle had done.

The load is 76grVarget/21grDacron/Fed215/350GrSNRN Hornady in 450NO2NE brass with the shoulder blown forward in the chambers of my rifle.
The barrels are engraved with a charge perscription of 5-1/2 Drams, the velocity of my varget load is 2024FPS.
The bullet holes are 1.3" center to center, the muzzles are .800" center to center.
I haven't shot it at 100yd yet with this load.

I'll shoot it again soon as the weather clears up a bit.
We were shooting between rainshowers and wading around in swampy conditions out at the ranch. Persistence has it's rewards!




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54671 - 13/04/06 04:55 AM

Congradulations! Its nice when those barrels start coming together!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Getting close... [Re: Chasseur]
      #54679 - 13/04/06 08:07 AM

Thanks-

I've put a lot of work into this rifle, it was in very rough shape when I got it. Working up to a load that gets the barrel groups together has been a tender tip-toe through the unknown. I just don't know anyone else running a BPE 450 double with these chambers. Marrakai's Tolley is similarly wacky, but his takes a bit less powder to do it's thing and I've been sweating it a bit on the way to converging groups -- his Tolley is quite a bit lighter than my rifle too.

Hopefully some time soon the weather will clear up some and I'll have time to get out to further run this load to see how it works out over the single express sight at 100 yards and beyond.
In don't want to press things much further as far as velocity goes although there's a 3-1/4" 500-450 BPE NFB in Wright's book that tested out at 2020fps and nine tons. He used Varget and this Hornady bullet. I think he used six fewer grains of powder to do it, but my chambers hold a lot more powder than the typical 3-1/4" case.
Nine tons pressure (compared to eleven tons pressure with original black powder ammunition pressures with 365gr nickel jacket bullets) with the smaller chambers of the 3-1/2" case gives me a bit of room to breath easy with this load and velocity in my much bigger chambers. I crept up to this load and there weren't any big or strange velocity steps along the way. All that and it has a good 'feel'



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54713 - 13/04/06 02:33 PM

Tinker,

Which range do you normally go to in the Bay? Chabot?

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Getting close... [Re: bulldog563]
      #54715 - 13/04/06 02:58 PM

Hello Bulldog-

I don't do much shooting at public ranges, especially with the double rifles.
Most public ranges tend to get nervous about letting thier patrons shoot from sling carry and/or shoot rifles while carrying holstered pistols. I like to get practical practice in while I'm out shooting.
When I do get out to a public range, I tend to get out to the range near the naval weapons center -- they have backlit skeet and trap running till 10PM all through the summer and into fall. That and they have a decent three-gun facility too.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bulldog563
.400 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54717 - 13/04/06 03:43 PM

What is the rane near the weapons center called? I have never been there.

--------------------
Join the National Rifle Association:
https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Getting close... [Re: bulldog563]
      #54718 - 13/04/06 04:11 PM

If I recall, there are actually three clubs operating on the same facility, and the whole shebang is called United Sportsmen Inc -- USI

It's just out of Concord off hwy 4
Good place, very low dumbass factor.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54725 - 13/04/06 08:23 PM

2020 fps with a 350 gr .450 bullet. And printing on the target nicely. Sounds like you have a nice brush deer and pig rifle. Shoot some more paper, then some venison and/or pork I think.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Getting close... [Re: NitroX]
      #54735 - 13/04/06 11:08 PM

NitroX-

Funny about deer, the ranch I shoot on is filthy with deer. I've had momma and a couple littl'uns grazing twenty feet from my muzzles -- and keep munching as I shoot -- out there numerous times while I've worked on this particular rifle. What's really funny is that the same deer (and numerous others) have hung in there while I've worked loads out for the sixteen bore blackpowder pinfire double rifles.
Those things make *huge* quantities of smoke. The deer just stand there and munch.
They've done the same thing while I've worked on S&W500 loads, that revolver is Noisy !


Do rest assured that this rifle will be getting out to hunt.
You know, I've already taken blood with it - shot the brainstem out of a very cranky skunk one bright day last year...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54748 - 14/04/06 02:32 AM

Tinker,

What a beautiful rifle! We do need more pictures to be posted.

My friend Ka'imiloa whose restoration project I posted about over here lives not very far from you and he had similar problems with his Calderwood 500 BPE which he solved very mathodically. In case you need his assistance, I would be most happy to introduce you to him though he is travelling in HAwaii this week and would be back after Easter.

Thanks for posting and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Getting close... [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #54756 - 14/04/06 05:18 AM

Mehul, you are a prince-

Thanks for the compliment on my rifle.

I didn't have a lot of time to set up shots of this rifle for you, but these will get you a sense of what the rifle's details look like.

Up in the image at the top of this thread you'll be able to see the pair of lions in the tropical scene.

What are these critters?


Tigers!

And note the gravestones here with the hayenas...

Also the 4-1/4 dram charge perscription in that scene

And this one on the barrels
5-1/2 Drams!

That's the solitary express sight on this gun too, no folding leaves.

Look like an India gun to you Mehul?
What was the time frame when the Brits were commanding sportsmen to outfit thier rifles with long-range sights on thier rifles?
Whoever had this gun made didn't seem to have to care.


--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54800 - 14/04/06 01:48 PM

Congratulations on the fine regulation, Tinker. This brings me great satisfaction too.

Even though my Tolley .450 was regulated with the same charge of powder as yours (according to your barrel engraving), my regulating 'nitro-for-black' load is indeed 4 grains less than yours, ie 72gr AR2208 (Varget). Perhaps it is because I use the shorter case, ie .500/.450 with reformed shoulder, rather than the 1/4-inch longer .450 No.2 case.

Should I come across a source of 'inexpensive'(!) No.2 cases in the future I will put them to service and we can conduct a proper comparison!

BTW, it was awfully good of the Tolley brothers to boldly engrave the regulating load on their rifles, though in your case they were a little too keen with two conflicting loads!
Here's a reminder of the load details on my Tolley:



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Getting close... [Re: Marrakai]
      #54808 - 14/04/06 02:21 PM

Tinker
Well done, nice looking and nice shooting rifle.
I have killed a lot of deer and pigs over the years with the Hornady 350 grain bullet at velocities from @ 1800 to 2330 fps with excellent results.
I would not hesitate to use your load for elk or black bear, and I know of a couple of grizzlys that were killed with that bullet at less velocity out of a 45/70 marlin.

When I shoot factory new brass in my 450 No2 the shoulder is pushed quite a bit foward as well. The neck length on my fired cases is about .530.


81 grains of IMR 3031 regulates with the 480, and 500 grain softs. Velocity 2080fps.
With the 350 grain Hornadays and 81 grains of IMR 3031 velocity is 2330fps.

I now use RL 15 with the heavy bullets.
Hope this helps.

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
The 350gr SNRN and heavier... [Re: NE450No2]
      #54816 - 14/04/06 03:30 PM

Thanks for the notes both of you-

Marrakai, what's the weight of your rifle -- eight and a half pounds?
Mine weighs in at just ten and a quarter pounds.

That 480gr at 2080fps shows up in Wrights book as 2100fps and twelve tons with seventy grains of mystery powder. The black powder load (360gr/1850fps) for the 3-1/2" bottleneck 450 lists at ten tons, the period NFB with 52grCordite at eleven tons - the load I'm running here tested at nine tons for Wright. Even though Greener and most other period texts show the 500/450 BPE guns weighing out like Marrakai's rifle -- and mine's a much heavier gun, I don't think I should push the issue with the 480 or 500 grain bullets without first knowing for double damn sure that they can be loaded at near or below the original pedestrian-grade bottleneck BPE pressures even if my rifle IS a freak of nature!

Those 350gr Hornady SNRN bullets have tested to have good soft lead cores and fairly thin elemental copper jackets. I'll just stick with them for now. At this point they're by far the most accurate bullet with this rifle, fairly inexpensive too.


Oh, and about those animals...
Marrakai, note the tigers. I've thought of putting a photo of them up on the thread discussing the Raj rifles and prowling tigers.

Can either of you identify the horned animals on the left lockplate?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54853 - 15/04/06 01:53 AM

Tinker,

The first picture does seem to show lions and the second one tigers, both of which are animals that are found in India. By the same logic, tigers are not found in Africa and the rifle could well have had some fantastic hunting in India when it was first made. If only it could talk!

If you would like to date it, you could ask at this website and they would be glad to help. They also have an extensive Historical Database that is available for all registered members to browse.

I have sent you a PM and shall introduce my friend to you shortly. He does love discussing old guns and welcomes discussions on them. I'm sure that you'll enjoy talking to him.

Best wishes,

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Getting close... [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #54856 - 15/04/06 02:09 AM

Mehul-

Thanks for your notes, also thanks for the introduction to your friends. I look forward to getting in contact with them.

I have looked through that site you linked for information on the maker of my rifle. They have some information, but what I'd really like to see is the build log from the factory. I'd gotten very close months ago, and found out where the records had gone, but my attempts to contact the keepers of the records have gone unanswered. Judging from the early serial number of my gun, the Wilson locks, and the strange chambering, I'm guessing early 1880's date of manufacture.

About these animals, can you identify the horned creatures on that left lockplate?


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Getting close... [Re: tinker]
      #54858 - 15/04/06 02:27 AM

In reply to:



About these animals, can you identify the horned creatures on that left lockplate?



???

Some sort of bison?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Critters [Re: NitroX]
      #54877 - 15/04/06 06:22 AM

NitroX-

I just don't know.
With the big furry mane and gently upwardly curving horns they just look kinda funny .

I wonder if there was some species of game in India back in the early eighties that's gone to extinction by now, but would seem to look like these beasts.


I really like the graveyard/hayenas scene.
I was told that hayenas like to prowl the graveyards at night, the piles of human ashes tend to contain bones. Hayenas like the charred bones...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Critters [Re: tinker]
      #54879 - 15/04/06 06:56 AM

What about Gaur ?

or Even Water Buffalo ?


500 Nitro

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banzaibird
.333 member


Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Critters [Re: 500Nitro]
      #54880 - 15/04/06 08:05 AM

Any clearer pics? Any chance it's a large goat or sheep of some sort?

perhaps nilgai? or bharal?

Bill

Edited by banzaibird (15/04/06 08:07 AM)

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Critters [Re: 500Nitro]
      #54885 - 15/04/06 08:50 AM

I'll try to get something else up here of that lockplate.

I've though Sable, Waterbuck, Roan...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Critters [Re: tinker]
      #54891 - 15/04/06 11:18 AM

Tinker,

Strangely, it looks like wildebeeste to me. A case of artistic liberties? Whatever, the effect is nice and the work looks lovely.



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Critters [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #54896 - 15/04/06 12:12 PM


A bit like the artistic liberties used by Jeffrey's engraver's
with the Birmingham Pussycats !!! (square noses).


500 Nitro

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Critters [Re: 500Nitro]
      #54898 - 15/04/06 12:25 PM

500N-

I'd been thinking about tossing an image of these cats up on the Jeffrey conversation, just to stir things a bit.
This IS a Birmingham gun after all, even if it does have the London address on the right barrel.

If I do, I'll get clearer image prepped for the Jeffrey gang.
I've thought that this might have been a Raj gun, with no stupid-ass artillery sighting system on it and the funky chambering - and considering the overall high grade stink about it - it may be possible.
The wood isn't original on this gun so there isn't any kind of magazine number or royal signet or cypher on the stock anywhere, actually at this moment the wood's getting a bit of a facelift.
I do like it though, any way it tumbles, and at this point it seems to be shooting pretty well.


--Tinker



--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Critters [Re: tinker]
      #54901 - 15/04/06 02:20 PM

Tinker,

This is artistic license with "artistic" underined. A beautiful rifle, and the engraving pattern overall is nicely done. You do have some rare gems in this one and your equally beautiful pinfire 16 gauge rifle!

Don't you wish even more through this discussion that it could speak and tell you where it has been, what it has hunted etc?



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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