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DoubleD
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: banzaibird]
      #54430 - 08/04/06 07:31 PM

I'm not sure I have the clam shelll concept down. Is it the round moulding that is below the watertable line on the outside of the action or is ith the long skinny part on the bottom of the barrel that rest on the water table?

The clips look to me to not only be little knives to cut and slash but great directionals to vent gas from a ruptured cartridge or primer in directions to cause pain and injury.

Now what about lumps and monoblocks.

Monoblock would seem to me to be a block into which the barrels were fitted, Can't recall seeing a mono block being used in a Double.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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banzaibird
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: DoubleD]
      #54434 - 08/04/06 10:05 PM

Ok if you look at the link of the clamshell action that I included you will see that they have an extra web of metal that goes from the water table to the standing breech/actionface and wraps up around the barrels. The reinforced action simply has extra metal that goes from the sides of the water table to the standing breech. Thus it refers to extra metal on the side of the action and not to the barrels. The Heym above has a reinfoced action.

Clips were orginally designed to help with the rotational force of firing a sxs. Personally I like the look of them but I agree on the sharp part and wouldn't care for them on a DG gun that I might have to be forced to reload very quickly. Of course i wouldn't want a huge rib extension like you need for a greener crossbolt on a DG gun either. Now in all fairness I've never hunted anything more dangerous than bears so most of this could be totally wrong opion, but it is my opinion.

In the pic I had labeled earlier. The lumps would be the 2 large protrusions from the bottom of the barrels in which the bites/underbites are in.

You have monoblock correct. However there are many guns made with monoblocks. A lot of them are cheaper guns because it is easier to use monoblocks during manufactureing but there are better guns with them as well.

Bill


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Chasseur
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: banzaibird]
      #54435 - 08/04/06 10:16 PM

Banzaibird,

Thanks for the great post with the pictures!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: banzaibird]
      #54437 - 08/04/06 10:44 PM

banzaibird

Thanks for the illustrative photos and also the links to the double rifles as examples.

Sending you a PM.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: banzaibird]
      #54449 - 09/04/06 12:31 AM

Good pics of the clamshell action, BB. The Brits prefer to call reinforced actions 'bolstered' actions.

Bit late, but here's a pic of a big Holland with reinforced action, they managed to make the bolsters look elegant, whereas those of Searcy and Heym look a bit brutal to my eye.



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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400NitroExpress
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: Marrakai]
      #54456 - 09/04/06 02:03 AM

The only action properly called a clamshell is the one in Bill's link. The Germans called it a somethingorother verschluss. As stated, a reinforced action is properly called a bolstered action.

Bolsters are very popular with gunmakers today, but are purely cosmetic and thoroughly useless. In the old days, bolstered boxlocks, like the Lancaster in Bill's link, were in the minority. The most ubiquitous of the pre-war trade built boxlocks (those from Webley, Leonard and Wilkes) never had them and, in use, those rifles were nothing if not robust. Bolsters were simply not needed. Unless the popular current argument about the relative differences in the steels is a red herring (P T Barnum never knew just how right he really was), bolsters sure as hell aren't needed on new DRs today. Just an excuse to uglify an action.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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new_guy
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: Marrakai]
      #54457 - 09/04/06 02:07 AM

Marrakai - you know it's not fair to compare the bolsters of a <15K rifle to a 115K rifle.

For a company to build a rifle and make a profit, they have to build it to a certain price point, i.e.: only x-# of man hours can be put into the gun.

You can get the moustache shaped bolsters on a HEYM... even in a pinless sidelock, but it obviously takes more man hours and costs more than the "PH" model.



--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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DoubleD
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: new_guy]
      #54462 - 09/04/06 02:44 AM

I missed the links that showed the calmshell and bolster. Found them an now have that aspect figured out.

Now tell me about articulated triggers.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (09/04/06 02:45 AM)


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hoppdoc
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: DoubleD]
      #54467 - 09/04/06 03:32 AM

GREAT THREAD!!!!

My ignorance on double terminology is lessening somewhat!!

Thanks much to all for the time, patience, and education offered to others!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: hoppdoc]
      #54468 - 09/04/06 05:11 AM

An articulated (front) trigger has a spring loaded split spoon that swings forward in the event that the index finger strikes it during recoil of the left barrel, preventing injury to the finger. They have their place on double gameguns with straight-hand stocks, as the stock can slip through the shooting hand under recoil, allowing the finger to strike the front trigger.

They really have no place on double rifles which are almost always pistol-hand stocked. With a properly gripped and mounted double rifle, the fingers don't strike the front trigger or guard bow, regardless of caliber. However, some double rifles are provided with them, for the double trigger challenged.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DoubleD
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #54469 - 09/04/06 05:20 AM

How are double rifle stocks attached, Tang screw or stock bolt or both?

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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k80
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: DoubleD]
      #54471 - 09/04/06 05:35 AM

When will we have a price ?

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: k80]
      #54475 - 09/04/06 05:42 AM

K80

I think "new_guy" has already said you can get the price by PMing or emailing him. Pretty simple.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: new_guy]
      #54489 - 09/04/06 09:46 AM

new_guy:
In reply to:

You can get the moustache shaped bolsters on a HEYM



Ooo yeah, that's much better!
Point taken about price.
BTW, never heard them called 'moustaches' before! Is that official Heym terminology?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DoubleD
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: Marrakai]
      #54500 - 09/04/06 07:31 PM

Are the bolsters decorative or functional?

How are buttstocks fastened to action on doubles?



--------------------
DD, Ret.


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hoppdoc
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: NitroX]
      #54506 - 09/04/06 10:30 PM

The new PH Heym model was just placed on
GunsAmerica.com for $12,500.00.

See the bottom of the page on

http://www.gunsamerica.com/1410/1410-random-2.htm

Wish I had the their deluxe model in 500 NE--
maybe someday!


--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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banzaibird
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - introductory pricin [Re: DoubleD]
      #54508 - 09/04/06 10:54 PM

The bolsters were/are supposed to be a reinforcment to add strength. They are located around the root(gusset) where the standing breech meets the water table(action flat). Basically they were trying to make it stonger by adding more metal. Whether or not they do anything is again an object of some debate. As an example read 400nitroexpress's post above.

As far as throughbolt or not a lot of it depends on who the maker is and when it was made. Some use/used them however I beleive most were not.

Bill


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new_guy
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: banzaibird]
      #54616 - 12/04/06 06:15 AM

MORE PICS ADDED of the new "PH"








--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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Grizzly
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: new_guy]
      #54622 - 12/04/06 08:01 AM

Hopdoc - the Gunsamerica listing is for Mr Newguy's competition, Eurogun imports.

Newguy - what kind of lumps are those? Can't tell from the pic.

--------------------
SCI Life Member
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smicha6551
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: Grizzly]
      #54651 - 12/04/06 10:23 PM

Any thoughts on the Heym vs. Kreighoff, Merkel, or Chapuis. I know some people here don't like the Kreighoff safety/decocker, but other than that I'd like to know people's thoughts on the relative merits.

Also, thank you for providing so much info - some of the terms get thrown around and having it explaned in detail and shown with pictures really makes it clear.

Edited by smicha6551 (12/04/06 10:28 PM)


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clark7781
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: smicha6551]
      #54653 - 12/04/06 11:28 PM

There has been a lot of discussion about this in the past. Here is one link:

Merkel v. Chapuis

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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smicha6551
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: clark7781]
      #54661 - 13/04/06 01:02 AM

Not much on the Heym in that thread (which I've read before) - I've got a decent idea on the guns other than the Heym but I'm looking for any advantage the Heym offers over the other makers, since it's a bit more expensive.

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Chasseur
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: smicha6551]
      #54664 - 13/04/06 01:35 AM

Since I've not shot one or owed one my remarks are pretty limited to the 5-7 or so I've held, looked at, etc.

Now we can all quible over asthetiques and such, but I'm not going to talk about that since that's a matter of taste. I'd say the quality of the Heym really is on another level than Chapuis or Merkel. The level of finish, wood to metal fit, etc has been better on the Heyms I've seen in general. There are exceptions, like the "hand finished" Chapuis that you can special order are much better than the "factory finish one" (of course they cost as much as a Heym so...), but in general Heyms look much better finished. I'm not an expert so I can't get into specifics, sorry. I've also been repeatedly told that they are very well regulated, but that's all second hand info.

Sorry I can't be more help

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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new_guy
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: smicha6551]
      #54666 - 13/04/06 02:33 AM

In reply to:

Not much on the Heym in that thread (which I've read before) - I've got a decent idea on the guns other than the Heym but I'm looking for any advantage the Heym offers over the other makers, since it's a bit more expensive.




There is nothing absolute here, but certainly there is logic and reason behind the price points of new guns. Here’s an attempt at my explanation of such.

I think what's important to remember is that all of these guns are made to be sold for a profit. Therefore all have to be built to a certain price-point, i.e.: only X-number of man-hours and cost can go into each one for them to be profitable for the company.

The misconception about the price of new guns is that some makers charge more than competitors for the same quality… or that vast quality differences exist between comparably priced products… it’s just not so. The marketplace ensures that doesn't happen.

If one maker charged more for less quality than a competitor - then they wouldn’t be in business long, as buyer’s demand would weed them out with lack of sales for an inferior product that was over-priced.

So in terms of quality, the old adage stands true. You get what you pay for. The HEYM is no doubt better fit and finished than the less-expensive makes/models. They simply put more hours into building them, and –in turn- they cost more.

You’ll also see the price difference in the balance and handling characteristics of the HEYM. The guns are built with the weight “between the hands.” You’ll find this characteristic on all “Best” guns, but not on all guns.

Compared to the HEYM, neither the Chapuis nor the Merkel are built with 50% of the guns weight concentrated in the middle of the gun, i.e.: “between the hands.” They will usually balance on the hinge pin, but you’ll find the weight distributed about 50/50 for the two ends of the gun (the barrels and the butt). Merkel accomplishes this by adding a weight to the stock. Chapuis are barrel heavy and need a recoil reducer to balance them on the hinge-pin.

That’s not to take anything away from the Chapuis or the Merkel. It just goes back to profitability of the gun. Yes, they could build one with proper weight distribution, and yes they could fit and finish one as well as they HEYM, but in the end they would cost as much as the HEYM and that would move their position in the market (based on price point) to one other than the niche they’ve chosen.

Again, they’ve all decided to build a gun to a certain price point, and serve different buyers by meeting different price-points in the market.

So, is an H&H Royal a “better” gun than the HEYM?
Yes, it has more man-hours in it and in-turn, it costs more.

Could HEYM build as good a gun as H&H?
Yes, but it would cost the same as the H&H.

Is a HEYM a better gun than the Chapuis?
Yes, it has more man-hours in it and in-turn, it costs more.

Etc…
Etc…

Beyond the economics of serving a niche of the market profitably, you also have to look at the features.

The HEYM has 1) ejectors 2) hinged front trigger 3) intercepting sears

The Merkel has extractors
The Chapuis has ejectors
Neither of the latter two has intercepting sears or hinged front trigger.

The more options or features you add, the more they cost.

So how does the HEYM stack up against the Merkel and the Chapuis?
It’s different… it has more features and better balance along with better fit and finish. And because of those, it costs more. But at the same time, they are targeting a different segment of the market... HEYM's target niche is not the same as Merkel or Chapuis.

Again, each serves to fill a niche in the market place, and would not be albe to do that profitably by building in too much for too little cost.

Hope that helps put the differences in perspective.


--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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500Nitro
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Re: www.HEYMUSA.com new "PH" - MORE PICS ADDED [Re: new_guy]
      #54681 - 13/04/06 08:21 AM


new guy


Well put - that's as good an explanation as I've seen.

It's a pity alot of people put the emphasis on price but
don't look at the features.

500 Nitro


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